Is swiss next?
 

When I told Aero LLoyd news to friends in swiss, they think they may be the next in line. Isnt this scary, I thought we are in recovery phase. Looks like danger is not over.My my, flying job is no longer has job security.

The 'new' Swiss does appear to be hanging by a thread, let us hope that it does not become a self-fulfilling event. If people think it's going to go then they wont book and so it slides down the chute ...

However, across the next ten years, more than one name will go. Whether they are merged/taken over/close, there are more airlines in Europe than the market will stand. Don't forget the difficulties of the German social and financial structure. This has been building for years and is now coming to the surface. Well, it's been on the surface for years but no one wanted to talk about it ...

I don't know who's going next but someone will.

According to an unconfirmed word spread by insiders, Swiss CE0 André Dosé met today with the Swiss government (all 7 buddies moving their big heads to and fro under a huge tepee in Bern) to implore them to grant Swiss International Air Lines a Letter-of-comfort.
He told Reuters ten days ago that the Half-a-billion Swiss Francs credit facilty Swiss is yaerning for was «about to be signed». It' hasn't been yet the case. Financial experts say it would at least take four to six weeks to bundle that facility, once the parliament would ok the letter of comfort, a financially binding document in case of bankruptcy (Swiss Tax Payers already had to pour more than a billion in Swiss to allow it to start last year).
Since last Sunday a the big success of the far-right party SVP in the last national parliamentary election made it less than ever likely the parliament would grant that Letter of Comfort.
In the meantime, the new price structure introduced last summer on the Swiss continental network has achieved better SLF, but not up to Swiss expectation. In an interview to the Basler Zeitung on Oct. 25th, the Swiss Sales & Marketing chief did not answer the question whether this new pricing policy brought a relief to the company. Instead of answering, he explained that the September figures were not yet available...
If Swiss has such a poor yield management, which cannot deliver a reliable estimate of the ticket's earnings three weeks after the month closing, no doubt this airline will go down the drain.
Another indication for the chaotic management of this would-be «civilized» airline: 3 days from the expiry of their insurance certificates some A/C are still not provided with the new ones. Up to the pilot to check if he is allowed to fly this A/C!
Might be the reason for Dosé asking for charity in Bern without waiting for the next parliament session :E

LH seems to have lost interest and Ba is puting stricter conditions for codeshare.

Did the last redundant has effected only ex-crossair? I would have thought other way around. Romans also did strange things before the fall of empire.

BA will certainly put more pressure starting from the next STT, if Swiss still exists at that point (line of credit still pending). The most obvious redundancy exists on Far-East routes. Some very profitable destinations in Africa were already given up by Swiss before the agreement with BA was known, just as if Swiss was getting ready for it.
In the meantime, the Swiss code-share agreement with BA partner and merger candidate Iberia led to a very telling recrutment add published last week both in the Swiss German and Swiss French parts of the country: Iberia is seeking regional pilots based in Switzerland (GVA and ZRH)!
I do not want to rush the conclusion but I do see a connection with the fact that Swiss is now renegociating its Embraer orders. Their financing is much to expensive, the E-170 is not holding its promises (certification coming in November, but performances below and weight beyond what the former Crossair ordered) and above all Swiss doesn't need those A/C.
The recruting of Embraer pilots by Swiss on a short term basis (November 03 to March 04) over a broker do match a downsizing of the Embraer orders. Paradoxically, Swiss is firing now 526 regional pilots and argues that the rest has to undergo a new training to fly what is left in the fleet (Bae-146 and E-145). It has indeed over 100 pilots now (of a total of 450) to fly six Saab 2000! But it's only a part of the truth.
The other part is that Swiss will need less Embraer pilots starting from the STT thanks to the Iberia Code-Share Agreement. It's one of the effect of BA pressure on Swiss overcapacities. Might be sound for the future of a reasonnably sized Swiss Airline. Might also be too late.

its interesting, seems like only the regional pilots(ex-crossair) are effected by this redundencies.

... there are also rumors about the E170-orders being replaced by A318's !

Which would keep the ex SWR guys nicely in place and the ex-Crossair department overstaffed... AGAIN !

Large scale recruiting going on in Swiss in certain depts. so not too much to worry about just yet.

Think the opportunities are falling to ex Crossair jockeys if my sources are correct!

'scuse me ?
 

I have just been laid off with swiss (actually got my last flight today).

I would be most interested in knowing where I could get (re)hired !!!

swiss...
 

finalschecks,i sent you an PM..check that out!

anyone interested...there is a "Talkshow"with A.Dose on November 7th in Gelterkinden,BL(Switzerland)...check out the link

http://www.4460.ch/marabu/

The Q&A show starts at 2030 local time...

Is Swiss next?
 

BTW, where are all those shiny new Airbus A340´s?

So far only one is flying for Swiss and that one seems to have a slight problem meeting the required climb performance for runway 34 in ZRH at night. I guess the "Golden Swissair Boys" overlooked a minor detail (or made a small calculating error) when purchasing their newest toy. ;)

Are ´Airbus parts supply problems´ really the cause of the slower delivery rate, or is the shortage of cash the main reason? :confused:

Swiss confirmed that it is missing 50 to 60 Embraer and Avro's pilots from November to March after firing 526 of its regional fleet. Swiss wanted to get ride of them all as soon as october, postponed to november, but did not take into consideration a progressive lay-off until next spring. The company entered into an agreement for part-time employment, but it isn't enough to smothen the situation.

As a result, out of the remaining 460 pilots:
- 85 fly MD-80s,
- around 100 fly Saab 2000, while Swiss keeps only 6 A/C of this typ flying.

It means that there are only 275 pilots to fly the remaining 18 Bae-146 and 18 E-145. MD-80s and Saab pilots have now to be retrained to fly Bae-146 and E-145, a process that will last until March-April 04.

In the meantime, 50 to 60 pilots have to be recruited over a broker. Otherwise they would be submitted to seniority rules and other agreements between the union Swiss Pilots and the company. Would be even more messy than it already is.

In short, anyone willing to enjoy skiing holidays in Switzerland while keeping the Swiss regional fleet flying before the company gets bankrupt should apply.

But do not ask where to send your CVs: the current broker choosen by Swiss has currently no licence to hire anyone, not even the funds to garantee the contracts! :ouch:

Sent your complaint for mismanagement directly to Swiss. They need more papers of this kind to keep warm in winter :*

Don´t forget the 3 Saab 2000s that are being wet-leased to Carpatair in Romania, and the 2 aircraft in BSL that are kept as back up.

So now you have 11 aircraft with roughly 5 co-pilots and 5 captains per aircraft. Sounds normal to me.

Correct - SB20 driver.
For the others: Their information is half correct. There were much less dismissals than previous expected, the figure went down to about 300, and not 500. The reason is according rumour the consultant company which calculated a crew factor of 7 (even 10 would be not enough because the high training rate).
You also have to add the some 30 pilots who will be trained on the Airbus 320 Swiss Sun - which was granted to the Ex-Crx after the last war between the unions.
Also A318 would have to be flown by Ex-Crx, at least according to the contract.
There are 3 A340 now on the flight line.

The rest is correct.

Dear Dani and Saab Driver,

If, thanks to the wet-lease, the staffing «seems normal» and if, thanks to a reduction from 500 to 300 lay-off, Swiss has everything under control, then please explain me why the company is desperately seeking 50 to 60 pilots (up to 90 according to the Swiss Pilots Association) from November to March? :confused:

I'd bet the staff cutting goes beyond the real restructuration need, so Swiss can get ride of the 50 to 60 «mercenaries» in Spring, when it comes to a further shrinking of the continental network. No fees, no hasle and the share holders are happy. :}

Dani wrote:
[quote]: Also A318 would have to be flown by Ex-Crx, at least according to the contract. [quote]

Correct until Oct. 05. Since A318 are most unlikely to fly under Swiss colors before Oct. 05, it makes the garantee offered to the Swiss Pilots (ex-CRX) void.

There also a number of reasons speaking against the A318. Not the least: Swiss cannot afford them now. Not even as a consideration for renegociating or cancelling some of the Embraer orders.

It's much more likely that the Embraer deal will be downsized in view of a further shrinking of the continental network in Spring. This is at least the latest and more credible explanation I heard today.

Ettore, the problem is that they dismissed too many pilots. It was most certainly a political issue - the number on Ex-Crx had to be greater than on the Ex-Swr side (so Ex-Swr numbers are greater in 2005 with a possible merger of the union or in a unified voting). Since most of the dismissed pilots are on the EM4 and Saab fleet cut by about 300%, they need more pilots. Of course unions would never agree to take others than Ex-Swiss, they ask dismissed pilots to stay half a year longer. And because Swiss fears to create any "long term temporary" employments, they rehire the already fired pilots via broker with fixed duration. Of course the union proposed other ways to solve the problem...

With the A318 issued you are right, but it will be very difficult again to favour Ex-Swr pilots in 2005: They will have to fire again the Ex-Crx (the A318 would replace Avro RJs) and rehire again Ex-Swr to put them on the A318. But everything is possible. If they would cancel all EM7/9 and order A318, it would be again very difficult to operate profitable, so Swiss would hardly see 2005.

Latest rumour is that Swiss will probably get the Letter of Comfort from the Swiss government now that the elections are over, and thus pave the way for the desperately needed 450 million Sfr loan.

Political analysts in Switzerland say it is most unlikely that the governement would call an extraodinary session to decide upon such a Letter of Comfort for Swiss until the new governement be elected on Dec. 10th.
The far-right party SVP/UDC won the latest parliamentary election and has been a strong critic of any subsidy to Swiss. Other parties would fear supporting a Letter of Comfort that would fuel the SVP/UDC line which targets at Swiss tax payers who were not asked to pour more than a billion Swiss francs in the new airline less than two years ago.
A Letter of Comfort would only be accepted by the banks if it is financially binding. That is why the parliament has to vote on the issue.
A very conservative estimate of Swiss cash-drain put it now at a million Swiss francs per day, compared to 3,8 p.d. last Spring.
It means that Swiss has burned more than the half of its capital (even after the share nominal value has been reduced to SFr. 32.-).
According to the law, in such an event Swiss should inform a judge, call for an extraodinary meeting of its shareholders and propose them restructuring measures.
But has you may know, and this to comfort the optimistic rumor you heard, there is a long way from the law books to their execution as well as a huge divide between what politicians say before and after an election...

:E

Swiss officialy confirmed today it's renegociating the E-170 orders, trying to postpone them to 2005.
My understanding is that Swiss cannot pay if the delivery starts in 2004.
Swiss also depicted the english version of the Reuters interview of Swiss CEO Andre Dose saying the credit facility was about to be signed by the banks as "too optimistic".
It's all but convincing. My feeling, supported by a number of people I talked to in the past two weeks, including some investors in Swiss Airbus financing, is that Swiss is in deep financial trouble.
Let's hope the best for X-Mas :\

I am not surprised to see swiss going that direction, they meet all the requirements for bellyup: reason being , 1:their model of doing business in this changing inviroments, 2:quality and qualification of managers top to bottom.Every Tom,Dick and Harry can not run an airline, those old days are gone!!!

I've just learned today from somebody who normaly knows what he's talking about that Swiss EVP Human resources Kurt renggli asked the management to cut another 300 to 350 jobs until year's end, otherweise Swiss would be under budget in 2004.
The bad news: More people sacked. The good news: Swiss could survive.

About the 150 managers already planed to leave the company until the end of this year, the same person also said the Board of director (which met yesterday) refused to have so many sacked.

Comment of my deep throat: they were too many former Swissair people among them!

Good gracious… Looking at their past experience, that's no good for Swiss if they stay.

November 6, 2003

The Swiss bourse said on Thursday it had reprimanded loss-making Swiss International Air Lines for selectively disclosing details of a major staff and fleet cut earlier this year before informing the broader public.

The SWX Swiss Exchange body said Swiss' move on February 25 to inform some business partners of the cuts during trading hours and ahead of a public announcement after the market close was a breach of listing rules, which prohibit potentially price-sensitive facts from being published during trading hours.

Swiss, fighting for survival amid a sharp downturn in the airline industry, decided in February to cut its fleet by 20 aircraft and cut about 700 jobs. The drastic cost cuts were sparked by a CHF980 million (USD$715.6 million) loss last year.

By the end of the year, Swiss will have chopped its workforce by almost 40 percent and trimmed its fleet and network by about a third. It expects to break even next year and to make an operating profit in 2005.

A bourse spokesman also confirmed that Swiss is being investigated for another potential breach of listing rules.

Swiss has said the case involves an interview with Chief Executive Andre Dose, who told Reuters on October 14 that Swiss was "in the process of concluding" a key credit facility and he was hopeful an announcement could be made soon.

His remarks prompted a sharp rise in Swiss' tightly held and highly volatile shares.

Swiss has said the translation of Dose's remarks, which he made in German, had been interpreted "very optimistically" but declined to comment further.

(Reuters)

My comment: The Swiss Exchange "reprimand" should not have much consequences for the staff, not for the management.

But it damages the image of the company further: once again, the management handled in a unprofessional way. It will not help to reshape trust and confidence.

The word from Jungle Jets is that SWISS want to postpone delivery of the four resheduled 170s they were due to get in 2004 to 'some time in the future' - they aren't worried by this because they can/have already place/placed the build slots with other customers. To be honest I don't think it's likely SWISS (So What It's Still Swissair) will live long enough to get the aircraft due in 2005... sad that....

BTW Jungle Jet data shows that the 170 has met performance predictions and I have to say I was pretty impressed with it when I flew one couple of weeks back..

E-170s spef and performances might be OK but did not meet the criterias set by Swiss when it passed the order. It does not mean the the E-170 is a bad airplane. It simply gives Swiss a perfect excuse to rediscuss the deal for reasons which have nothing to do with spef and performances…


The bottom line remains that Swiss cannot afford them, not it could afford A318 (even less). Full stop.

New troubles ahead
 

Three weeks ahead of the recruitement on a temporary basis (Dec 1st to End of March) of 60 to 90 pilots to fly Swiss Embraer E-145 and RJs while the others get new training and certif in Brussels, Swiss screwed the deal.

The Swiss Pilots Association told its members on Friday not to sign the contracts offered by PAS Aviation Associates. PAS stands for Phillip Ashley Smith, already involved in a case with Zimex.

On legal grounds, Swiss could not reemploy pilots recently fired on a temporary basis. A third party company was therefore required.

But the proposed PAS contract do not comply with the promisses held by Swiss. Temporary pilots should have got the same conditions as the others, except seniority. It's obviously not the case.

Further details coming up.

Obviously, the regional pilots are not the only ones to be unhappy with the Swiss management.

Aeropers (former Swissair Pilots) is now threatening Swiss of undertaking legal steps against the company if it does not reduce quickly the number of managers, directors, EVPs and other people burdening the overhead's costs…

Aeropers signed an agreement with Swiss, according to which the revisor KPMG provides Aeropers on a regular basis with a check upon management loans, bonuses, incentives and so on.

Aeropers feels that for the sake of the company's much needed turnaround, the management should sacrifice at least as much as the pilots did, i.e. a 7,2% pay decrease.

Lately, a list of 300 managers to be sacked has been rejected by the Board of Directors, arguing it was too many at one time. 150 would be enough, said the Board.

Drastic redundencies will prolong the swiss life a bit, but sooner or later it will go. Too many good reasons pointing towards its demise.

DosŽ said on Friday that the State (Confederation) should make an effort, like any other investor. I did not mention anymore a Letter-of-Comfort, nor the much awaited credit facility which relies on that State Garantee. Talking about money, he sounded quite nervous, even if he said there is enough to go on. He gave no figure, no deadline.

Talking about the pilots, he choosed to laugh, explaining that when they know he is on board, the landing is usually harder before negociations, softer after. ÇRight now, it's pretty hardÈ he said. Aeropers made it clear: cut 240 heads in the management or elseÉ

The simple fact that Swiss is still paying so many directors, vice-directors, vice-president and Executive Vice-Presidents (more than 300 in total) for a fleet of 79 A/C (3,75 chiefs per A/C, or 1 for every 80 employee) make it one of the worst case in the industry.

Even worse if you consider that Swiss has already burned two billion Swiss Francs without undertaking a clean-up at that level. For those who went, Swiss hired consultants who cost up to three time more and who don't give a fÉ of the future of that airline. I also believe it's too late for a turnaround. :(

Those are the lucky ones who managed to received reduntdant compansetion, unlucky one will be the last one when the pot is empty.Simple advise:bail out, try get much as possible when the pot is not empty.

SWISS-why don`t you die instead of being in coma.

Latest news from the frontline: the dead is still moving. Or shaking, so to say…

Saab's pilots based in Basel have just been asked by the management to confirm they would stay in Basel.

Saab's pilots based in Zurich have just been asked if they agree to be based in Basel.

Saab's pilots based in GVA and LUG have to move anyway: their crew bases are closed.

For the record, Swiss has over 100 Saab's pilots with 6 A/C of this sort remaining in service.

Now what the people forced to move to BSL are wondering about is: for how long? Should I sell my house, move the family, send the children to a new school, if I learn by the next STT that they are no Saabs anymore in the Swiss fleet? If I make a typ transition to Embraer or Avro, I'll have to move again to Zurich.

The net result of the operation is to encourage more pilots to leave the company.

That is how downsizing and restructuring works: make life impossible to them and people will leave without having to pay them a redundancy fee.

:yuk:

That is too bad that management has got this low to play this sort of games to get rid of pilots.Why don`t they be honest and blunt to tell the truth. They will never ever see another pilot working for this management again.Hope we all learned a lesson.

Middlepath asked:

Because mismanagement can be treated as a legal offense. See SAirGroup.

Because failing is politically incorrect. See the huge amount of money tax payers were forced to pump into Swiss.

Because failing leads to political loses. See what happened to the conservative party FDP for its role in the Swissair fall at the latest parliamentary election.

Because managers, who are mostly men, believe that losing face is like losing penis.

Sadly, most employees will deny the reality as long as they can afford to, i.e. as long as they still have a job.

On their side, investors, share holders, leasing companies, aircraft builders (Airbus & Embraer) and further creditors all have the upmost interest in saving what is left of their financial commitments. Shutting down Swiss busines would result in a total loss, instead of keeping a little while it's still alive.

All in all, nobody has the slightest interest in pulling the trigger now. And everybody has the right to believe in miracles as long as the management will be clever enough to hide the damning financial truth, which is – once again – a desaster.

:ouch:

More news here.

Hi R.V.
would you be so kind to translate the summary in english. Thanks inadvance.

I did a quick translation with Google (I admit, I´m lazy! :D) so check your personal message!

The translation is pretty rough but you should be able to figure out the general idea of the article.

Here is more food for thought...

Rough translation for the non-German speakers: someone leaked a financial rapport to the Sunday press in which it is (allegedly) stated that Swiss has made a whopping 613 Million Swiss Frank loss so far this year. The stock price went into freefall.

According to CEO André Dosé, Swiss is still on course, so good luck Swiss(air)! :ok: