I remember seeing these desperately low salaries when finishing my commercial training. I have seen a starting salary as low as $15k for a regional job with a feeder back in 2007. The 1500 hour rule has nothing to do with aviation safety. But this is what happens when there is no regulation. Which way would you prefer it?
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Originally Posted by rod_1986
(Post 11397843)
I can’t understand why the US majors haven’t simply pressured the US Government to open up more visas for experienced pilots and the FAA to start cross-recognising other regulator’s licences. This (amazing and impressive) virtuous pay spiral will cost them billions of dollars in the long term.
Or is the lobbying power of ALPA (et al) so much stronger than we have with unions this side of the pond? Genuine answers from our American colleagues welcome! In the meantime I’ll just look on in awe. I can remember years ago when I wanted to fly in Europe, and there was no way for me to easily convert a license or get employment. I think there may be a shortage at the regional anirlines over here, but not at the legacy airlines. That may change in the next year or two, but not currently. I think we’d have benefited from no direct entry captains, and not having different contracts for different groups. We are all one at each airline. It is like a marriage over here.! Get your number and stand in line. It can be painful, but in the end, I think it benefits the pilot group as a whole. I speak with my friends at Lufthansa and I hear how they have different pilots hired in different years with different contracts. Crazy! |
It’s the classic divide and conquer mentality.
Take BA for example…. PP24 was the norm then they introduced PP34 . A huge difference for a career !!! but once enough people are on the PP34 they will vote against the PP24. |
Originally Posted by RARA9
(Post 11404239)
It’s the classic divide and conquer mentality.
Take BA for example…. PP24 was the norm then they introduced PP34 . A huge difference for a career !!! but once enough people are on the PP34 they will vote against the PP24. I believe the US also benefits from the fact that there is a continent wide union, something that doesn’t exist across Europe, a comparable land mass with massively varying costs of living and, in pilots, a very mobile work force. |
The problem in the UK is that the Unions are self-inflicted weak. BALPA, within BA in particular, likes to "get around the table" as if they are management consultants. We only every hear excuses and arguments as to why pilots in the UK are not worth the same as US counterparts. Excuses such as US furlough, chapter 11.... all missing the blatantly obvious point that like-for-like carriers have overall better long term earnings, standards of living and retirement prospects. Ask BALPA for evidence of their arguments and they can't show any.....
Within BA, the main issue is that BALPA reps are too afraid of their own shadows to tell pilots to respect each other and BLRs. They allow people to "work for free", encourage people to volunteer for jobs (flying and none flying) with the excuse that "pilots don't like to be told what to do"...... undermining agreements to such an extent that BA ops/management go out of their way to "forget" rules that attract overtime payments etc.... I know/heard of a few chaps on SH who stick to their principles and try to ensure their co-pilots are treated fairly. One chap got his co the 1.25 NCP that he was owed).....when BALPA told the FO "it's too late"..... until the pilots and their union grow a pair, things won't change..... even today OPS are asking for volunteers to cover work at single rate..... |
Originally Posted by SunSmith
(Post 11404924)
The problem in the UK is that the Unions are self-inflicted weak. BALPA, within BA in particular, likes to "get around the table" as if they are management consultants. We only every hear excuses and arguments as to why pilots in the UK are not worth the same as US counterparts. Excuses such as US furlough, chapter 11.... all missing the blatantly obvious point that like-for-like carriers have overall better long term earnings, standards of living and retirement prospects. Ask BALPA for evidence of their arguments and they can't show any.....
Within BA, the main issue is that BALPA reps are too afraid of their own shadows to tell pilots to respect each other and BLRs. They allow people to "work for free", encourage people to volunteer for jobs (flying and none flying) with the excuse that "pilots don't like to be told what to do"...... undermining agreements to such an extent that BA ops/management go out of their way to "forget" rules that attract overtime payments etc.... I know/heard of a few chaps on SH who stick to their principles and try to ensure their co-pilots are treated fairly. One chap got his co the 1.25 NCP that he was owed).....when BALPA told the FO "it's too late"..... until the pilots and their union grow a pair, things won't change..... even today OPS are asking for volunteers to cover work at single rate..... I have never understood the weak dick mentality of pilot unions in Europe. Lord knows, every other workforce is ready to burn the place down (cough, cough, France). You want to know why pilot salaries are high in the US? Pilot unions and seniority lists. Every airline has both. Being locked into a list means you will do what it takes to improve your wage and benefits. And since we are now 40 years into the post deregulation environment there are many opportunities for pilots to choose a job so that forces carriers to offer attractive packages to entice new hires. Los Estados Unitas is a big country with crappy public funded transport, particularly inter city. So aviation is a staple. Passengers, cargo, everyone wants to be there or get their package deliveries right now. So aviation flourishes. Another thing to consider is that aviation terms and conditions are only now starting to recover to the pre 9/11 terms. Airline management took advantage of the terror attacks on 9/11 to destroy pilot contracts. They were able to do this until the basic economic principle of supply and demand caught up with the lack of pilot starts driven by those ridiculous starting salaries for regional pilots. Now they are playing catch up. And they are paying to play. FUPM. The reality is that the passenger has been taking advantage of low fares that can easily absorb an elasticity in price. $99 fares across the country are not good for anyone except the great unwashed who are **** to have as passengers anyway. Post Covid flying a bunch of domestic flights I had more unruly passengers requiring police meeting the flight than in my previous 38 years of airline flying. Thankfully international opened back up and the issues were left to the guys flying domestic. Business travelers will pay the fares, and it’s just a small part of the operating cost of a flight even if both cockpit crew are making $555/hr. I pissed that much away if I held 10 minutes going into LHR. |
Originally Posted by cactusbusdrvr
(Post 11407774)
You want to know why pilot salaries are high in the US? Pilot unions and seniority lists. Every airline has both.
Even the European airlines with both of these cant manage to secure what the Americans have, though.. |
I am always surprised pilots are comparing even gross salaries across the world without any critical thought. Look at the employer social contributions, what the state pays for and what cost is put on the individual. It varies significantly, also within Europe.
Supply and demand, labour rules, union strength, market size seals the deal. |
Originally Posted by 172_driver
(Post 11408061)
I am always surprised pilots are comparing even gross salaries across the world without any critical thought. Look at the employer social contributions, what the state pays for and what cost is put on the individual. It varies significantly, also within Europe.
Supply and demand, labour rules, union strength, market size seals the deal. |
Fair play to the American Unions for what they have achieved but comparing like for like is silly when you don't factor in the cost of living in any decent city in America, healthcare, University costs for children etc, I would imagine it's actually closer than you think. I'm a single aisle Captain in the UK grossing just under 170k next year and it will cost £9k to send my child to university per year, it's likely 5 to 10 times more across the Atlantic.
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I think you're all forgetting about the numbers quoted above are only salary based on minimum guarantee (monthly 70-ish odd hrs in most cases). Medical, dental, vision and 401k (pension) matching (in some cases extra company/union pension too - UPS/DL comes to mind), tax free per diems, etc. are on top of of those numbers. Taxes/social differ for everyone (joint filing with your spouse or single filing just one example) and are largely varying on your domicile, too (NY is one of the highest whether in some states you don't even pay state tax, just federal). Guy i know in UPS for example clears north of 300k yearly, after taxes and social.
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Interesting. I think the cost of living bearing in mind one’s personal circumstances, is of course relevant.
I think one has to remember that any move would, I understand, mean joining the bottom of a very long seniority list. I don’t know how payscales work over there but I imagine some of the figures being quoted are for folk who aren’t at the bottom of the seniority list ! The elephant in the room of course is that it’s practically still very difficult for most people with no obvious connections to get the right to live and work in the states. Not impossible, but difficult. |
Indeed. Basically one has to work out how much the rest (until the age of 65 for now) of their career is worth. Having that in mind it's an educated (yearly salary scales and upgrade predictions on various fleets for each operator are available) guess whether it's worth pursuing it or not.
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Originally Posted by rod_1986
(Post 11397843)
I can’t understand why the US majors haven’t simply pressured the US Government to open up more visas for experienced pilots and the FAA to start cross-recognising other regulator’s licences. This (amazing and impressive) virtuous pay spiral will cost them billions of dollars in the long term.
Or is the lobbying power of ALPA (et al) so much stronger than we have with unions this side of the pond? Genuine answers from our American colleagues welcome! In the meantime I’ll just look on in awe. |
Update. An agreement in principal has been reached. Here’s some bullet points. 21% raise on date of sign, 37% through term of the contract. For reference, in 2027 this agreement puts a narrow body Captain at $394/hour and a wide body Captain at $484/hour.
Fellow Pilots, On May 18, 2023, APA and American Airlines successfully negotiated agreements in principle on several remaining economic items, including pay rates. These agreements complement previously agreed-to items, including enhanced work rules and scheduling improvements that focus on quality of life and operational integrity. We will publish a high-level summary and provide more details in the coming days. However, we understand that the desire for details is shared by all as we move forward with this process. To provide some of those details, we offer the following selected highlights addressed in this agreement. The below bullet points do not fully detail the changes to the agreement, are not all inclusive, and are for informational purposes only. Summarized Highlights Note: All “May 2” dates are based on an Aug. 1, 2023, ratification that will change if the agreement is not ratified Aug. 1.
The Negotiating Committee will continue to draft full contractual language that will be presented to the Board of Directors as a proposed tentative agreement (TA). The Board of Directors will then deliberate and decide whether to forward the proposed TA to the membership for ratification. |
Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123
(Post 11398122)
I disagree. Yes there won’t be an increase like they are seeing over in USA but I reckon we will see an up tick.
RYR still losing masses to the likes of ME carriers. Brexit may actually help UK licensed pilots. Anyone starting training now or has just finished have gone or will go EASA route. That gives RYR and Wizz as options to start. RYR are struggling to fill RUK side of operations. If you’re jet rated in UK last few months has seen some pretty good options. I know a few people recently who have said to me. “I don’t know where to go?” Been offered Virgin, BA, J2, DHL, Qatar. UK wise for an FO just looking at ££k J2 is looking mighty. £75k now I think? Summer yes they work hard. Winter though my mate seems to do couple of days work every 2 weeks. EU land I don’t have my ear to the ground. I do know guys/gals who have got 500hrs at RYR and off to AF/KLM etc. One thing about the US is yes salaries are looking very good right now. The cynic in me says yes BUT….. 2 words…. Chapter Eleven. All bets are off at that stage. CP |
Originally Posted by randon
(Post 11402485)
There is no way how to compare both markets. It's like to try to compare apple and oranges. The wages in America are like that simply becouse of the oldest law of capitalism... Offer and demand...
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Meanwhile Smartlynx is sending underpaid European pilots to be based in Miami and fly from there and not a single American union is moving to stop it from happening.......
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Originally Posted by 3MTA3
(Post 11439189)
Meanwhile Smartlynx is sending underpaid European pilots to be based in Miami and fly from there and not a single American union is moving to stop it from happening.......
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Originally Posted by 3MTA3
(Post 11439189)
Meanwhile Smartlynx is sending underpaid European pilots to be based in Miami and fly from there and not a single American union is moving to stop it from happening.......
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