Wrong job ?
 

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...-on-up-to-100k

OK ... to avoid any more PM's from strange, humourless people who don't get the point ...

It seems you can attract a higher salary for operating a machine in two dimensions, than you can in three ?

well if you do apply, a train is actually 1 dimension (if we are excluding time).

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....8c06ee729c.jpg

How dare they.

Quite a bit of exclusivity was created around driving Tube trains throughout the years. You can only become a driver by internal promotion and with a certain amount of experience in a non-driving position within the system. Hands down, these folks know how to fend for themselves - unlike us, the flying lot, where it's everyone for themselves which often involves undercutting the competition by agreeing to some truly ridiculous work conditions.

Compensation for the lack of a view?

Don't knock train driving. It has to be incredibly difficult to keep the wheels on that thin bit of metal!

Underground
 

Dear Sue
as difficult as people having to tell you where to place your heavier than air machine so you dont hit another one.

Tube train drivers only have 2 decisions to make, go or stop the most important of which, stop, can be overridden by the passenger.
Seriously though I know there is more than that to tube driving.
The clue of course is in the phrase “ heavier than air” .

Surely the moral of the story is tube drivers have got their act together and a strong, united union delivers the goods. Unlike us pilots, who don't get the concept of solidarity.

It's the same here in Australia. Train and tram drivers are paid mega bucks with their allowances for outside 9-5 working hours/weekends/public holidays, same hours pilots work roughly. Even during the worlds longest lockdowns over the last 2 years here in Melbourne trains and trams ran to normal schedule, despite no one being allowed out of their homes, this didn't happen with pilots.

Union strength is the reason. Pilot unions are powerless for reasons stated above.

Good for them. The benefits of a strong union and supporting each other.

Is there any reason, why all of you complainers are not changing job and become a tube driver?

My first thoughts too but put yourself in a tube train cab in rush hour. Every two minutes you are driving at 30 - 40kph down beside a row of new passengers around 0.5m from your train wondering if any of them is going to fall, jump or be pushed in front of you. The stress in that must be high because you have no control over whether your train is the one that someone is going to choose this week. Add that to the years you have to go through being abused by the public as a station attendant before you can apply and perhaps you can see why there are probably few takers from here.

Click bait rag spreading mis information, who'd have thought - https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transpa...=FOI-2275-1920

it’s the union we need to change not the job

TimGriff6 That's not correct - with the right qualifications you can apply directly to be a Driver - requirements can be found online.
I worked as a Guard for LT in 1966, having been trained to drive in an emergency. In those days, promotion to Motorman (i.e. driver) (& most other grades) depended on a seniority date. I imagine it's much the same as systems pilots still have in airlines. The obvious fault is that this system can result in unsuitable candidates. At least today's method will, hopefully, only take on the right people.

From memory, a number (a few) of BA Flight Engineers, when made redundant with the demise of the 747 Classic in ~2001 were able to transfer their skills to driving the trains of London Underground. This might need corroboration.

S

Have any of you traveled on the tube during rush hour? I did it for years. Central and Jubilee lines were horrible. Drivers constantly telling people to mind the doors. Every station looking out for a jumper. I spent 2 years travelling through Stratford station on the central line and in that time at least a dozen people jumped. Horrible to think of it. I think they should be paid £100k a year.

Tube drivers work in a very small, difficult to access industrial bubble, backed up by powerful and aggressive union, the union which has a some times during the last few decades had the sympathy and ear of government. They also do a responsible and safety critical job.
Some or all of those points could have been said about UK pilots in the period before 1980.
However, there are a lot more airline pilots employed now than 40 yr ago, and if you want to be one, there not much barrier to entry so long as you have the training money and a modicum of intellect. So maybe its not all bad news.
Both sets have existential risk from automation in the near future. I wonder which group will survive the longest?

You will find a lot of pilots very happy to fly for free or almost free. If you did that on the underground you’d probably end up tied to a tree in the woods getting a beating.

Some of the stuff I have heard people come up with in this industry I’m not sure I would hear in others.

Well that´s still about 60% less than the average large cabin biz jet jock cpt. (not training youngster or newbees). So, perhaps they should have studied harder and gone 3D! Lmfao.

Good for those lads - glad they get away with that! Now the politicians and regulators on the other hand - not so mucho..

Underground tube driving must be an awful job - noisy, clattery, squealing wheels. And all you ever see is dark tunnels whizzing by and then platforms covered with people. Over and over again, every couple of minutes. Must be mind numbingly tedious and the pay is probably necessary to get people to stay on and do the job.

At least the views from an airliner cockpit are glorious, even at night. But aircrew unions, Company Councils and we the aircrew, are terrible. How have we allowed 'our' industry to get to the point where some pay for all their own training and type ratings? Fatiguing rosters? Long duties? Low pay? No pay? Working on Christmas day and bank holidays for no extra money? Coach or taxi positioning, etc etc. We're not as clever as we like to think.

You absolutely nailed it good Sir!

I've seen the subject of train driver remuneration come up a few times on here. There’s always someone saying "that much for pushing a lever?!" or that train drivers only control something in one dimension, as opposed to 3 dimensions such as a pilot so therefore they should be paid more.

To me this is like saying lawyers are paid too much because all they do is type at a computer and occasionally speak in a room full of people. Hey, I can do that too, so why aren’t I paid the same as a lawyer?! Fulfilling the requirements of job is so much more that the physical act of making the plane take off, making the train move or saying the right words in a courtroom.

Train drivers (tube operators also) are paid well because they have a strong union, their role is safety critical, they have a very specific set of skills that you can’t gain without being employed by a company and there aren’t droves of unemployed train drivers’ willing to work for pennies and put up with ridiculous employment practices all because it allows them to follow their "dreams".

Every employee, whether in the public or private sector should receive fair and appropriate renumeration and benefits, but there are many disparities in the system. If you want a more just economy, don’t criticize those with good unions who can fight for their rights, but the system that allows it to happen.

It’s the crab mentality of a lot of people in the aviation industry that has led to the degradation of T&Cs. If you’re a pilot and you don’t like the fact that tube drivers earn £55k then organise and make sure that pilots, much like tube drivers, are paid a proportionality for their skills and there isn’t a glut of people willing to work for less than they’re worth.

I wish I could say this is true. There seems to be a push towards hiring ex police officers as drivers which, up to a few years ago, seemed fine. What we've got lately are the adrenaline junkies that go on to have operational incidents within days of passing out and their attitude to the job is quite depressing. Don't get me started on the sense of entitlement. Just my 2p worth.

The company tried to open up and diversify as they wanted to eliminate the "jobs for the boys" mentality but things seemed to have gone full circle without them realising. The recent hire ex police I've come across have openly joked that information is passed down one mate at a time about every stage of the process and exactly what HR want to hear. We'll be advertising for trainee drivers again soon and a number of us are watching with interest.

The good thing about the pilot assessment I went for in years gone by seemed to suggest that it was set up in a way that you either had the skills or didn't. I think South Eastern trains proactively sought out pilots in one of their recruitment drives not too long ago and it seems to have worked well. Would love to see more pilots come through but it's understandable that you haven't invested and sacrificed all that you have to just walk away and drive trains.

Nail on head.

The difference is that drivers of the tube operate in a very small and transparent market, there are drivers and the city which employs them. No other players. No competition, and crucially, no substitute.There is no low cost/ short haul/ long haul/ cargo/ corporate/ international tube. There is just one employer. and there is also only one price for passengers, no competion whatsoever.

As opposed to the aviation market, which of course consists of a wide spectrum of companies, pilots ( of different rank, experience, seniority, nationality), legislation etc. All competing with each other, all ready to replace each other.

The mentality of pilots has nothing to do with changing t&c, it is the changing market forces that are responsible.

There were a couple of pilots that I know of who were placed into either the redundancy or retention pool at a Big Airline who became train drivers at my employer, I believe both have returned straight back to said airline in the past few weeks.

If an airline in the next couple of years did a scheme similar to that run by Bristow Helicopters earlier this year where the cadets had their training fully funded I'd seriously consider applying.

The tube by many accounts does seem to have a continuous battle between management and the unions, the impression I get is of a very adversarial relationship whereas on the mainline companies that isn't necessarily the case. Quite a few drivers move from tube to mainline and very few in the opposite direction.

Quite a lot of mainline driver pay in Britain has been driven by poaching. Post-privatisation, one or two companies decided they wanted the best train drivers at almost any price and those companies helped to drive the market upwards. The DfT have unfortunately seemed to have cottoned on and these particular companies have been told to recruit lots of trainees externally to reduce the competition, historically the only trainees they took on were internal promotions. ASLEF still can't see the wood from the trees and haven't tried to maximise competition, instead pretending that everything would be better under nationalisation.

If we have two things easier than pilots when it comes to negotiating pay and conditions, they are as follows:

Firstly, all trainees must be employed by a train company from the first day of training, therefore the number of drivers in the market is limited, this is exacerbated by the fact that most companies rely on overtime to meet their timetabling needs.

Secondly, there isn't any international labour arbitrage, so if there is a dispute the employer can't bring in a railway equivalent of some ACMI operator from a low-wage country to cover the work. If the EU allowed industrial action over multiple jurisdictions in the same way that it allows companies to operate over multiple jurisdictions then I think pilots would be in a much stronger position. With many operators, if one national subsidiary takes action, they can get another subsidiary from the country next door to cover quite a bit of the work.

Husband of a former work colleague is a Driver in the Melbourne system. Fantastic pay & conditions, but there is an 18 month training period which is very full on. He was offered a promotion to management, but knocked it back is it also meant a drop in pay with no shift penalties, etc... The Melbourne system also runs 24 hours over the weekend, non-stop from Friday morning to Sunday night. As per previous posts, jumpers, etc are an occupational hazard, and the drivers must maintain a sleep diary & also blow Zero BAC when on shift. Those complaining about the big pay packets would also call having to record their sleeping patterns & not drinking within 12 hours of starting work intrusive.....

Genuine question: How do you record when you fall asleep?

As far as getting enough sleep is concerned, in my experience of aviation it was the demands of employers which resulted in not enough opportunity for a decent night’s sleep.

Yep, given rosters plus time zone changes plus requirement to rest away from home environment ( in hotels of interesting standards ) I’m not sure companies in the airline industry would be too interested in logging sleep, or making x amount of sleep mandatory before report…

Not to mention here in the PRV these guys and gals are a protected species, no need for job keeper or the threat of losing your job under any circumstance. During the worlds longest lockdowns here in Danistan, train and tram schedules remained unchanged despite zero pax, day after day after day. But good luck to them.

€€€€ talks in the right places
 

And there are those airlines that you can progress up the ladder via the €€€€€ route. Avoiding the normal check and balances. Hard to believe, but it still happens.