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stades 19th Dec 2018 17:07

ERJ-145 with FlyBMI - a good first job?
 
Hi all,

I'm an ab-initio pilot with a frozen ATPL in the UK and I heard that FlyBMI are currently recruiting for low hours pilots.

The offer looks decent but I'm worried that flying a jet under 30t could restrict future career options flying bigger planes, cause it looks like a lot of airlines want hours on jets over 30t for FO positions. Do most airlines count hours on smaller jets? I dont have a lot of contacts in the industry so I dont really know where else to ask.

Thanks for any advice!

Icejock 19th Dec 2018 18:19

Well if the option is that or not flying I know I would rather have a job and gaining valuable experience operating in a multi-crew commercial environment.

Reversethrustset 19th Dec 2018 18:46

If you have a fATPL and no flying job then I don't even know why you're asking the question unless you have a few job offers. Take the first job that's offered because if it passes you by there may not be another opportunity.
A little tip if you get an interview? Don't call them FlyBMI, they are bmi regional. Good luck.

Council Van 19th Dec 2018 21:26

Give me strength!

The ERJ is a bit to small for sky God's.

As a mortal I started on a Dornier 228, it actually had propellers, unbelievable. (Best flying of my career)

Bob8052 19th Dec 2018 22:34

Yeah I wouldn’t bother applying. The worlds your oyster, after all, you’ve got a fATPL!! You’ll only get “stuck” flying a small plane. If I were you I’d wait for that big shiny jet. That’s where we all started.

Falling_Penguin 19th Dec 2018 23:51

You are probably in for a bit of a ribbing here, but to answer the question, yes the hours will all count. My personal opinion is that you should apply for every job you can and take the first decent opportunity you get offered. If you end up with two options, you can weigh up the pros and cons. In the recent and current market, the type you fly (sub whatever notional weight) has not restricted people from moving on to larger aeroplanes (if that's what your goal is).

Good luck in your job hunt.

iggy 20th Dec 2018 01:22

It is called "climbing the ladder", and actually it will help you in an interview. Iit shows character, determination, and a fighting spirit. Not because you have 320 in the license all the doors are opened.

Besides, you will actually learn to fly, no VNAV, no MANAGED mode, no A/THR... After that airplane a 320 will be a piece of cake.

Check Airman 20th Dec 2018 08:08

At this stage in your career, flying an E145 may actually be beneficial. You have more sectors per day, and less automation than the larger planes will have. This gives you a chance to develop skills and confidence that will take much longer (if at all) on a bigger plane. It's also more forgiving than a larger jet. Go for it!

Intrance 20th Dec 2018 09:55

It really depends on the terms though, I know a few years back it was still a "pay your own rating" kinda thing with them. No way in hell should you be paying your own rating for an E135/145, it's not very likely you'll use it anywhere else after BMI if you know how many are flying around Europe.

If they offer it with a bond and the terms are decent, go for it. I honestly think everyone should still go through the ladder from small to big. The experience will pay off later.

Breakthesilence 20th Dec 2018 10:00


Originally Posted by stades (Post 10339464)
Hi all,

I'm an ab-initio pilot with a frozen ATPL in the UK and I heard that FlyBMI are currently recruiting for low hours pilots.

The offer looks decent but I'm worried that flying a jet under 30t could restrict future career options flying bigger planes, cause it looks like a lot of airlines want hours on jets over 30t for FO positions. Do most airlines count hours on smaller jets? I dont have a lot of contacts in the industry so I dont really know where else to ask.

Thanks for any advice!

Go for it. It's a job, in commercial aviation, you will be paid to fly and gain experience that other pilots will never have. You will end up telling your stories about this in 10-15 years in front of a beer with your First Officer (probably a shaved guy who will have seen A320 NEO only in his life) in a larger airline.
Not every airline ask for hours above a certain weight. It's a jet aircraft and some opportunities exists for Non-Type Rated pilots all over the world. A friend of mine moved from small executive jets to the B747. I have colleagues (we fly B737) who came from the military helicopters with no experience on an airliner.

PS: think about skipping this opportunity and failing the one you are waiting for. You will be slapping yourself with your Pilot Logbook.

Johnny [email protected] Pants 20th Dec 2018 10:24


The offer looks decent but I'm worried that flying a jet under 30t could restrict future career options flying bigger planes, cause it looks like a lot of airlines want hours on jets over 30t for FO positions. Do most airlines count hours on smaller jets? I dont have a lot of contacts in the industry so I dont really know where else to ask.
Just how condescending is this statement. You're asking whether a jet job as your first job is worthy because it's only a small jet. I suggest you leave that ego well behind you, take the job, learn to fly then look to move onwards and upwards. I bet you haven't even applied to turbo-prop operators given your comments, I suppose they are far too far beneath you and your zero experience fATPL. There are far too many like this these days, I agree with Intrance

I honestly think everyone should still go through the ladder from small to big.

stades 20th Dec 2018 10:25


Originally Posted by Intrance (Post 10340098)
It really depends on the terms though, I know a few years back it was still a "pay your own rating" kinda thing with them. No way in hell should you be paying your own rating for an E135/145, it's not very likely you'll use it anywhere else after BMI if you know how many are flying around Europe.

If they offer it with a bond and the terms are decent, go for it. I honestly think everyone should still go through the ladder from small to big. The experience will pay off later.

See, this is kind of my worry - if it were a bonded type rating I wouldn't even have to think about it, but I am expected to drop £20k on a type rating (which is industry standard for a first job). If I then have to drop another £25k on a 737 or A320 type rating a few years down the line, when a lot of my friends are going direct to those jets, and only paying up once, that's a worry.

I realise i came across a bit 'too cool 4 small jets' I would love to fly the 145; I was just worried that doing so would pidgeonhole me (which has been mentioned a few times on other forum posts).

Thanks to everyone for the advice, including the guys who gave me a bit of flak ;-) My main fear was that there was some industry standard that experienced FOs need time on jets over 30t, but that doesn't seem to be a thing, which is a relief!

lpfflyer 20th Dec 2018 15:49

It's not necessarily his attitude, it's what some major players in the industry ask. A quick search and Emirates ask for an extra 1000 hours if <20t. BA give "preference" to experience on aircraft >25t. It's all very well climbing the ladder but if the hours don't count, which was his question, there's no way to climb it.

Reversethrustset 20th Dec 2018 15:57

There's always a way to climb it. Why does he have to limit himself to climbing to BA or Emirates? One thing's for certain, he won't climb anything if he or she is sat at home fiddling with MS Flight Sim X.

SoFarFromHome 21st Dec 2018 09:37

The embraer 135/145 and bmi regional are the best start you could ask for in aviation... ( unless you can start on a TP of course )

Awesome jet, simple enough to enjoy, complex enough to learn about the systems. Great route network, a lot of fantastic people and good standards.

Proper flying, visual approaches, NPA, as already mentioned no AT, no VNAV and you WILL miss it when you look back one day.

Go for it and be thankful, look around at what's happening, airlines are not going like they were even a few months ago, Norwegian stopping courses, WOW downsizing, I would grab it with both hands.

Best of luck!

p.s.
I personally know of a number of guys who got DEC on 320's directly from bmi on the embraer so nothing is impossible if the market is good.

VJW 21st Dec 2018 12:09

Additionally, I'd worry more about actually getting BMI regional to offer you a position. I've often flown with people in the recent past who talk about the other options they have at the moment, when actually none of them have even applied for other positions. There's definitely a misconception our there, that because their friends are leaving, it'll be easy for them to do the same.

Just be mindful that until you have an offer, you've no decision to make. It might be slightly better to ask this type of question after you've passed.

Trossie 21st Dec 2018 15:56

Maybe this it the sort of research that you should have done before starting your fATPL?

You've got an entire career ahead of you. Learn to walk before trying to run, Get a job on turbo-props. You will end up so much more of a real pilot that those 'friends' going straight onto shiney jets.

Sirijus 21st Dec 2018 16:56


Originally Posted by Trossie (Post 10341527)
You've got an entire career ahead of you. Learn to walk before trying to run, Get a job on turbo-props. You will end up so much more of a real pilot that those 'friends' going straight onto shiney jets.

I do think that one should keep an open mind and not say no to TPs or smaller jets, just because one doesn't want to spend their whole lives on one.

But doesn't really matter who's the real pilot, when you can't get a decent job in the future just because your plane wasn't heavy enough or cruised a bit too low too slow, while all your 'friends' enjoy their comfy seats "supervising" 777s...

Black Pudding 21st Dec 2018 17:07

Until you start a job, you have no job.

Daddy Fantastic 21st Dec 2018 17:30

No you should hold out for Qantas and accept nothing less than the 787...

ATTCS armed 21st Dec 2018 18:27

My first jet job was with bmi regional on the 145 and I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed it. I learned loads. The aeroplane is complex enough to allow you to gain valuable experience and simple enough for it to be a relatively easy transition.

If I had my time again, I would be looking at bmi regional to start my career.

Intrance 22nd Dec 2018 01:18

Just for a show of hands, how many of you, in the current hiring climate, would shell out the £20.000 for a job on an E135/145?

I know the benefits of flying "old tech". I came up through a turboprop older than I am without any automation and flying tons of NPAs in crap winter weather. And that experience continues to serve me well. But I also had to deal with the fact that that turboprop was under 10 tonnes and a 19-seater, and a few years ago no one would even give my CV a second look. Some guys had been pretty much stuck on the type for years, as MTOM and seats was an easy filter for job applications. So unless you wanted to pay up for the next rating or knew the right people, replies to applications were few and far between.

So when the current hiring boom slows down again as it inevitably will, those filters will probably come right back and it wouldn't be strange to see a bunch of companies asking for 30+/50+ tonnes MTOM experience. And there you will be with your E135/145 rating, barely anyone flying it anymore, and probably bound to cough up money for another rating to move on. I'm sure there will always be options for connected people. But right now, I don't know why you would take your money to BMI Regional instead of an A320 or 737 operator that wants you to pay for the rating. Unless BMI provides you with the exact lifestyle you desire.

CABUS 22nd Dec 2018 05:11

I agree with the posts above, looks terrible to me. Shocking in fact. I recommend returning to the job you love until a proper job appears, one your experience demands, maybe the 350 at Cathay.

A good chunk of the best pilots you will ever be lucky enough to meet and maybe fly with flew aircraft less than 30t. The Cessna 310, king air, Navajo, Harrier, Tornado, Sea King, Euro fighter....

It wonít be the aircraft you fly that limits your flying career.

Ennie 22nd Dec 2018 07:54

I was grateful for anything that was offered, weight didn’t even come into it. Fokker 50 was my first job and I was the happiest man alive the day the letter arrived with the offer. It was the best flying I ever did. I miss it every day, 4 years of proper flying, short line ups, early turns, squeezing in between heavies, 220 knots to 4 miles, bouncing around in bad weather and parking next to Concorde at T4! I’d say flybmi was a great job be it first, second, third etc. To be honest, at your stage you really shouldn’t be being this picky, get your head down and learn.

Intrance 22nd Dec 2018 08:12


Originally Posted by Ennie (Post 10341990)
I was grateful for anything that was offered, weight didnít even come into it. Fokker 50 was my first job and I was the happiest man alive the day the letter arrived with the offer. It was the best flying I ever did. I miss it every day, 4 years of proper flying, short line ups, early turns, squeezing in between heavies, 220 knots to 4 miles, bouncing around in bad weather and parking next to Concorde at T4! Iíd say flybmi was a great job be it first, second, third etc. To be honest, at your stage you really shouldnít be being this picky, get your head down and learn.

Was your Fokker rating 20.000 pounds self-sponsored though, or included in the offer? If you are expected to put down these amounts of money you better be picky.

Reversethrustset 22nd Dec 2018 08:40

it doesn't matter whether it's £20k or not, if this is his only offer and you're prepared to pay the money then take it, all this weight nonsense is irrelevant, the question you have to ask is, do you want to fly for a living or not? If you do then you take what's offered. How many of you Top Guns here who are too above themselves to fly an E145 would honestly recommend the original poster not to take this opportunity if it arose? It would be a brave person to turn it down in the arrogance that you're going to get other offers. One thing is for certain, if you're sat behind a desk there's absolutely no way of progressing your flying career, get your backside in the industry by any means possible, once inside the world is your oyster.

EMB-145LR 22nd Dec 2018 09:14

My career to date; Jetstream 31/32 - ERJ-145 - EMB 170/190 - A320. The first two were definitely the most fun Iíve ever had flying. If I could only fly one of those types for the rest of my career, it would be the 145. The A320 is very comfortable, but itís also very sterile.

C172Navigator 22nd Dec 2018 09:25

I started at bmi regional and I loved it. None if us newbies spoke about moving on, we were all happy to be there. The 135/145 is a great aircraft, we flew a lot of sectors in busy airspace and it was a wonderful experience. A big shiny jet is not the be all of aviation. In the beginning I suggest you accept any job and gain experience, then later on when your priorities have changed a little, say with a family for example, you can choose an operator that fits with your home life. But right now with nil experience you would be silly to dismiss any offer. Good luck.

Council Van 22nd Dec 2018 09:26

Does the OP have a better offer on the table?

Brexit looms and there is rumblings of European if not of world wide resecession again and we all know what that brings to the industry, which could be kicked off by a hard Brexit when the EU looses the UK cash cow. I would get in now, ensuring I purchased redundancy and loss of licence/critical illness insurance to cover any debts I had.

Good aircraft, swept wing jet, an ideal stepping stone to say Jet2 who are sucking up 250 this year alone if you believe PPJN, or BA or the Middle East etc etc.

Never turn that first job offer down unless you get a better offer before you start.

Intrance 22nd Dec 2018 09:30


Originally Posted by Reversethrustset (Post 10342009)
it doesn't matter whether it's £20k or not, if this is his only offer and you're prepared to pay the money then take it, all this weight nonsense is irrelevant, the question you have to ask is, do you want to fly for a living or not? If you do then you take what's offered. How many of you Top Guns here who are too above themselves to fly an E145 would honestly recommend the original poster not to take this opportunity if it arose? It would be a brave person to turn it down in the arrogance that you're going to get other offers. One thing is for certain, if you're sat behind a desk there's absolutely no way of progressing your flying career, get your backside in the industry by any means possible, once inside the world is your oyster.

The thing is that when you start putting down money in numbers like that, you donít necessarily need offers... Take that money to Ryanair, pretty sure they still need some pilots and youíll get a 737 rating out of it.

Also maybe worth to note that the original poster doesnít mention that there is an actual offer in a way that you and I may understand it, simply ďI heard that they are hiring low-hour pilotsĒ and that what they have on offer is decent.

I will just repeat my original advice a last time since people donít seem to read the actual posts and just want to wax on about how they climbed the ladder in different times and how you shouldnít refuse anything :rolleyes:.

If the terms and conditions are good, itís a guaranteed job and you feel itís worth dropping 20k on the rating, go for it. Otherwise there are better ways to spend that money. Youíre doing the right thing by ALSO thinking about what comes next, instead of only what is right now.

Council Van 22nd Dec 2018 09:53

Is he British, how many UK licence holders will Ryanair want or be able to employ post Brexit to operate his Irish reg aircraft if we go down the hard Brexit route which seems likely with the let's give the EU everything they want deal Mrs May is proposing?

UK licence on a G reg aircraft might be important, the likes of Ryanair might not be so keen on Brits until they know what the fall out will enforce for UK residents trying to gain work in Europe in the future and there are bucket loads of Italians, Spanish etc to fill his right hand seats of those B738's. Could the EU turn round and say sory we have enough of our own 'new airline pilots, Brits not required'?

I would personally be jumping in any jet I could at the moment, subject to due diligence on the short and medium term prospects of the proposed employers business. To spend £20k on a rating with a company that might not last 6 months would be a risk but please understand I know nothing of Midland Regional finances and this is just a general statement.

(PS Never paid for a type rating, vowed I never would but it's a fight to get to top and times have changed I am afraid. Like any part of life aviation is a battle to beat your competitors, some people are lucky to have the odd £20k to chuck around)

CaptainProp 22nd Dec 2018 10:49

Whatís the status post March 2019 for a UK AOC holder with G reg aircraft to operate intra-EU routes? My understanding is that this will not be possible in case of a no-deal outcome. Might be something worth keeping in mind before getting a job with BMI.....just a thought.

CP

Cows getting bigger 22nd Dec 2018 11:31


Originally Posted by Council Van (Post 10339654)

As a mortal I started on a Dornier 228, it actually had propellers, unbelievable. (Best flying of my career)

Eeeeee, you were lucky. Some of us were stuck on smelly old Piper Chieftains. Still great flying though. :D

Reversethrustset 22nd Dec 2018 11:49


Originally Posted by Intrance
The thing is that when you start putting down money in numbers like that, you don’t necessarily need offers... Take that money to Ryanair, pretty sure they still need some pilots and you’ll get a 737 rating out of it.

Also maybe worth to note that the original poster doesn’t mention that there is an actual offer in a way that you and I may understand it, simply “I heard that they are hiring low-hour pilots” and that what they have on offer is decent.

I will just repeat my original advice a last time since people don’t seem to read the actual posts and just want to wax on about how they climbed the ladder in different times and how you shouldn’t refuse anything :rolleyes:.

If the terms and conditions are good, it’s a guaranteed job and you feel it’s worth dropping 20k on the rating, go for it. Otherwise there are better ways to spend that money. You’re doing the right thing by ALSO thinking about what comes next, instead of only what is right now.

Opinion or fact? The fact is you cannot just turn up at Ryanair and say "I've got £20k, give me a job and a 73 rating", it doesn't work like that.

We don't know anything about the OP, is he/she in their early twenties or mid forties? Have they got an offer or haven't they? Have they got a career to fall back on or haven't they? Do they have £20k to burn or do they not?

Are you that confident that you can tell the OP to take a gamble and wait for a firm offer elsewhere before the industry takes a nosedive? At the end of the day whether they spend £20k at bmi, Ryanair, easyjet or some chicken shit outfit in the arse end of the earth it's kind of largely irrelevant, at least they'll be in the industry if they so desire, days got to be better than not spending it and sitting behind a desk wishing you had. Take what's on offer (if it is offered) and enjoy it.

Council Van 22nd Dec 2018 12:14


Originally Posted by Cows getting bigger (Post 10342123)
Eeeeee, you were lucky. Some of us were stuck on smelly old Piper Chieftains. Still great flying though. :D

Unlike you I must have been a sky god and deserved to spend my time in the beauty of the sky's, the 7T flying box that made Shorts Sky vans look graceful.

I was very lucky. Wrote to Cobham and got the usual ex military types only on the Falcons. However they had an Islander at East Mids so I went and stuck my CV under the office door at the back of the hanger. They were just upgrading the DO228's at the time, one to replace the Islander at EMA, and the increase in weight meant that the CAA would no longer allow them to fly them single crew but as a single pilot aircraft operated by a mult crew. Suddenly two weeks after being told to get lost by Hurn the guys at East Mids were on the phone as they needed 7 FO's for the three Dorneirs the company operated.

Truly a case of making the effort to putt myself in the the right place at the right time and accepting if I got paid to fly then it was a good job to have what ever the aircraft. Especially lucky as this was just ten months before 9/11.

Council Van 22nd Dec 2018 12:23


Originally Posted by CaptainProp (Post 10342101)
Whatís the status post March 2019 for a UK AOC holder with G reg aircraft to operate intra-EU routes? My understanding is that this will not be possible in case of a no-deal outcome. Might be something worth keeping in mind before getting a job with BMI.....just a thought.

CP

Obviously as part of his research into the company he will have a good idea of the routes they operate and this is something he could discuss at interview, then again........

Intrance 22nd Dec 2018 13:55


Originally Posted by Reversethrustset (Post 10342128)
Opinion or fact? The fact is you cannot just turn up at Ryanair and say "I've got £20k, give me a job and a 73 rating", it doesn't work like that.

We don't know anything about the OP, is he/she in their early twenties or mid forties? Have they got an offer or haven't they? Have they got a career to fall back on or haven't they? Do they have £20k to burn or do they not?

Are you that confident that you can tell the OP to take a gamble and wait for a firm offer elsewhere before the industry takes a nosedive? At the end of the day whether they spend £20k at bmi, Ryanair, easyjet or some chicken shit outfit in the arse end of the earth it's kind of largely irrelevant, at least they'll be in the industry if they so desire, days got to be better than not spending it and sitting behind a desk wishing you had. Take what's on offer (if it is offered) and enjoy it.

Obviously it doesnít work like that at Ryanair, though they do generally take people with a pulse, money and basic flying skills. Sometimes without the latter :}.

As for the rest of your reply, turn that argument around towards the load of posters calling the OP a Sky God who only wants an A350 seat or something, and are basically telling him/her to jump at the opportunity because he/she should be happy itís there.

Iím just trying to point out that yes, concerns about the type you are going to fly can be justified, and I backed it up with my own experiences. I think thatís what these forums are for, right?

Council Van 22nd Dec 2018 16:09

Norwegian cancelling type rating courses, could be a lot of rated B738 guys for Ryanair to pick up soon.

macdo 22nd Dec 2018 16:50

Depends on your age. If you are under 25ish I'd definitely be looking for varied experiences in aviation. Going for TP might be a bit extreme, but the 145 is great to fly, you'll get lots of landings and experience of flying, rather than button pushing and you might be knackered, but not bored. In this game, variety is very important. Following the line across the Atlantic might sound attractive (Long haul is definitely something you should do) but like most things, gets boring after a while. Frankly, I've been incredibly lucky to have done everything from GA to widebody and feel sorry for anyone facing 20/30/45 years of Airbuses.
If you're closer to 30 and/or have domestic commitments, big shiny jet is the way to go, I'm afraid.

hans brinker 22nd Dec 2018 17:12


Originally Posted by Intrance (Post 10341996)
Was your Fokker rating 20.000 pounds self-sponsored though, or included in the offer? If you are expected to put down these amounts of money you better be picky.

Must be getting old, the only thing I thought was "MTOM in the Fokker is 20.820 KILO not pounds"....


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