I’d say be careful, especially if you’ve extended the duty day beyond the norm, e.g. by use of captain’s discretion. Certainly if you are driving in the U.K. and looking for a legal precedent you might want to look up the Great Heck (or Selby) rail disaster.

The court decided that the road vehicle driver whose actions led to that accident was driving whilst sleep deprived - he got a 5 years prison sentence.

I worked for many years on the roads.

Unlike aviation the road enforcement and regs don’t make such a fuss to seperate out tiredness is tolerable but it’s fatigue that is bad. They just draw the line at tiredness (hence those tiredness can kill matrix signs). You’re either in a fit state and alert or not. Certainly on the HGV side of things for example. The muddied waters between fatigue and tiredness get out clause wasn’t something DVSA and Police were interested in.

If you have a smash causing harm and there was evidence you chose to drive whilst not alert due lack of lack of sleep then you could be prosecuted. You don’t have to fall asleep and crash to be prosecuted either. They can try and fit you for driving without care or attention if you’re wandering about the road a little. Forget airline liability. When it comes to the driving it’s down to the plant pot behind the wheel. Up to you if you drive when not fit. That’s the way the law lot look at it.

A artic driver on the M60 fell asleep due lack of decent nights kip, crossed the central reservation and took out several vehicles. He was convicted of death by dangerous driving and a large amount of the evidence relied on his lack of sleep 4 hours prior to work due staying up late (which he admitted in interview).

You can land a jet from a trans Atlantic with predictably nothing but pitiful rest from a 24 hour layover (perhaps two hours before pick up 10 hours before landing) and a merely out the gates and up the road be pulled over in your car to find traffic enforcement take a different view than FTLs of what’s a safe amount of sleep before operating machinery.

Besides all that blab anyway, you don’t want to have a incident so don’t try and press on. We’ve all had the nodding donkey scares once in our lives. Just ain’t worth it! I used to kip in the services up the road on the way home from trips but kept sleeping through my alarm and getting tickets :) . Found a lay-by instead ha. A nap of an hour or two and plenty of coffee and an open window. I always then pulled over for another snooze if felt getting weary again. Switch on a really bad radio station like that hideous radio 2 and that even more annoying Jeremy Wine. You’ll be so annoyed at the utter dross coming out of the speakers you’ll stay right awake!

Ill be damned having long since left working on the road I’ll be killed on the roads as a result of an airline :)

Been there done the nodding dog bit & the rumble strip wake up, now the cost of my renting a room within a few minutes drive of the airport may seem expensive but it’s better than being dead.

Mr X I put it to you that you caused the accident because you were tired after a night duty.......
Well I was within European legislative safety limits to land a jumbo jet so it seems logical that I could drive a Ford Fiesta. My employer tells me if I’m within those limits I can’t be tired. 😎

EASA FTLs work both ways ( possibly)

But I’m with Keith getting lodgings is better than being dead.

That would always be my defence too. Most of my stupidly long days tend to be escaping base rather than getting home and 95% of the time I would be legal to be flying still as I pull up at home.

Might help bring the ridiculousness of EASA home when lorry drivers get more rest than we do!

Yes I should add the lay by I used was an off road one with minimal chance of being struck. Don’t park in those road adjacent lay-bys.

With the company liability thing. I don’t want to defend them.

But I think looking at it this way. They see it as your normal place of work. How you get to and from it is your ballywhack. In their eyes no different from a factory worker on night shift.

The big question could be, do they leave you at the end of the shift in no fit state to practically (the word being practically) travel anywhere? Well, ha ha. That’s leaning on an open door, and I think we all know the reality is, particularly after LH when you’re based a drive away..... errr! But you can see the can of worms with that one. If they’re leaving you in such a poor state at the end of a duty they see fit to provide a hotel or accept liability for road accidents it would beg the question of how could 30 mins before you be fit to be in duty during landing? The firm I work for do have a “dark room” at the base. A creepy place where you can sleep on flat chairs to the sound of multiple snoring. I’ve used it once or twice. Twice was enough. I still have the nightmares. I still have the scars. Never again Horace...

So in the eyes of everything, “you’re on your own mate”. I’m sure there’s been a few test cases in other work roles where this has cropped up though. But I’d forget about firm liability in a practical sense. Likely to be least of your worries if you have a prang. Look out for number 1 and take some kip.

If you worked a rostered/planned shift then I can see the parallel with the "clock on, clock off" factory worker. OTOH once you've extended your shift, especially if it's well beyond what was planned then I think the parallels might fail.

FWIW we also have a couple of scary snoring rooms behind crew report area but if we have extended our planned duty day significantly (and certainly if you have gone into captain's discretion) then hotel rooms are made available.,

Yes, that aspect is a very good point and must admit did occur to me after I posted. But by that point I was bringing the dustbin back in :)

I’m never gracing those rooms again after what happened :) . Interesting to know re the hotel.

That’d be great for all the crew having to move to Crawley! ;-)

[QUOTE=Wireless;10285258]

You can almost see how this would play out in court should this happen...

Defence: ”’The European Aviation Safety Agency’ says my client is in a fit state to land a xxxtonne aeroplane with 300 people on board, in some of the busiest airspace in the world. Faced with such complete and overwhelming scientific evidence, would the prosecution care to elaborate on how they think my client is not fit to drive a car?”

Prosecution: “Certainly. We hoped you might say that...”

Can open. Worms everywhere.

Mm. Interesting reading the links but I think there’s a distinction worth remembering. It does seem there’s been civil cases bought forward by claimants holding their employers liable for personal damages.

To stay on track, keeping it simple and, for the purposes of the question the OP asked. I still think think it worth re emphasising the law lot hold a driver responsible. So work outwards from there.

For instance quite common for a fatal RTC for at least one driver to be quickly arrested on suspicion. Work from there and keep yourself right.

I see it unlikely you’d escape some sort of legal attention if you caused a crash by nodding off or were reported for the offence of driving without due care and attention. Of course, the employer could perhaps also be persued by the authorities but you’d have to be whistling a pretty good tune for your employer to cop full responsibility for driving offences.

The dual persueing is perhaps more common in companies associated with road transport such as hauliers and coach firms holding O licences. The DVSA and Police are particularly energetic at perusing companies in that regard alongside their drivers.

If in the UK just listen to LBC on the way home. I get so worked up by that phone in program that I’d never fall alsleep. 😀

I used to drive through the Cotswolds to BHX for many years and had two accidents coming home after night flights which I could only put down to being fatigued.No personal damage done but two very bent cars.

I was also taken out by a fully grown red deer early one morning just south of Wellesbourne.......thank you Bambii !