What's the deal with Cathay DE FO recruitment. Is it genuine ?
 

Hi all.

I applied to Cathay for a direct entry FO position. I've just been invited to attend a selection for second officer transition training in HK. I must admit I know very little about Cathay but I'm not interested in an SO position.
Is the DEFO thing just a gimmick to get people to apply and then force them in to an SO position ?

They have had candidates in the sim recently I heard so yes. Best to move thread to Fragrant Harbour, good luck.

I don't think you'll find too much positive news regarding Cathay on Fragrant Harbour. The place appears to have completely fallen from grace over the years and Hong Kong is undoubtably one of the most expensive and probably most polluted cities in the planet. CX was such an aspirational place at one time. A shame.

Listen to Callsign Kilo !

It is no longer the place it once was...join, and it won't take very long before you are screaming to leave. What's the expression? Forewarned is ...

I doubt that it's a gimmick and they can't 'force' you into anything. Do you meet their requirements - experience commensurate with age and all that??

Forgive me if I am missing something here but at nearly 40 years of age surely there are better options than moving to Hong Kong to join a fading airline?

Depends on your frame of reference. £140k and 13-14% tax will lure plenty of folks from LCCs, and anywhere else that isn't a legacy carrier.

If you're trawling around Europe on €2200 a month, or you're one of the thousands of Canadian or Australian pilots that will never see their countries only 2 airlines, etc, etc.

There is no shortage of applicants, that's for sure.

Oh dear.

Sounds like you'll need every penny of your £100k plus, just to live?? Just wear a mask for the pollution? Great place to visit for a weekend though. Especially if your employer's paying.
As with most legacy carriers! The MOST revealing factor, would be the attrition rate (loss of pilots to other airlines.) at these employers. Now that WOULD be an interesting read!

Correct. I'm not sure what your point is? I was answering a question made in the post prior to mine. As usual, you've gone off on an irrelevant tangent.

On to your points; If you need £100,000 to live (which would make you a pretty poor financial decision maker), then at least that leaves 45 grand to stash at the end of the year.

My point is, having the same take home pay as a very senior BA LH captain as a year 1 FO will attract plenty of people from all walks of the industry. If you're struggling with that, then I'm not sure what to say. I'm not encouraging people to join, and I'm not saying it's the bees knees. You're either playing the idiot, or you are one.

As for attrition - about 35 in 2016. Pilot workforce about 3300. What's the revelation you're so excited about?

This on the fragrant harbour section today: (A section well worth a read, for anyone thinking of going.)
I dunno, maybe they should double the money?? It looks like a place stuffed full of unhappy people who just don't want to be there. Golden handcuffs perhaps?

When the same three people keep making the same point, it doesn't make it correct.

So, I'm all ears regarding the exodus. As far as I can tell, attrition of 1% is comfortably the lowest in the expat flying world.

So, back to the post you derailed... who would come? Plenty. QED.

30-odd DEFO places and nearly 3000 applicants.

Cathay sounds like a pretty good deal to me, I don't know what those on Fragrant are complaining about.

New entrant FO on £140,000 a year before allowances with no overtime. With 18 days off a month to go home and what, say 3 maybe 4 trips a month that's not many nights one would have to spend in HKG in a 1500 sqft flat on the 20th floor.

Lets face it, that is one hell of a better deal than they were offering 30 years ago.

A quick question.... why are the SO's not being upgraded to FO?

Capt Ecureuil,

18 off a month is a bit generous, maybe that is the case for some SOs.
Guys on the 777 do get more days off due to the nature of ULH flying but the 777 will start to pick up a few more regional routes with the 350 starting europe and NA. The current recruitment drive is for the 330 and 747 as there would be a riot if external guys were taken directly on to the 777.

Definitely not a better deal from 30 years ago, with housing you could afford to buy a place, now you cannot. Getting kids in to school will be a nightmare and cost thousands and in some cases hundreds of thousands for deposits.

Hong Kong is an expensive place, 1L of bad milk will set you back almost 5US, it may seem like you are getting paid a lot but the money laves your account almost as quick as it went in.

It will be hard to get home on an airbus regional or 74 roster, airbus guys are working max days with maybe 8 days off in some cases, definitely not all in a row.

747 guys spend a lot of time flying through the night, holed up in anchorage with plenty of roster changes. Ive heard of some guys head off to NA and not return to HK for 10 days with only doing 40 hrs of flying.

I would add commuting or frequent trips home to Europe to/from Asia is not sustainable, I did it for 18 months with a long haul roster - resulted in me gaining chronic fatigue and insomnia, took quite a bit of time to sort me out out! Never again...was the beginning of the end for and me and this crazy life - always better off staying home!!!

You'd have no idea what you're getting yourself into at CX. A big announcement is forthcoming and the news will be bad. CX is in a very big downward spiral and I personally do not think it will survive. The word is out amongst the passengers and employees about how bad it really is at CX now.

The training departement, the third floor, are complete and utter nutters! You've never experienced anything like it. CX has around an 75-80% command failure rate and KAs is close to 100%! ARE YOU READING THIS???

Rostering is nothing but shameful. The project manager for the new rostering program just quit. Dealing with CX is not something most will tolerate for long anymore. They have no more clout and the world has figured out how corrupt these people are. You will not be getting eighteen days off a month.

Three pilots died on the freighter alone this year, one right on the airplane! Are you hearing me now???

Our pass travel is atrocious, not at all transparent, costly, and is run by a complete idiot. They do not want you on the airplane and if you do get on, you will pay! Better off on full fare and on someone else. You'll get treated better too. CX has nothing but disdain for its staff.

Hong Kong is being overrun by the locusts that are mainlanders. This once vibrant city will turn into another mainland city with disgust of epic proportions.

If you have not really paid attention to anything i've said, or read on Fragrant Harbour, then waste your time and give it a try. The morale is so bad that alone will convince you you made a mistake.

That quote about it not getting better, they don't care, is from me! Please trust me and run the other way. Watch "The Revenant". It's about as accurate a story about working for CX there is.

Do not ever say you were not warned.

I guess then other airlines like HKE or HKA are out of question !!!!

As I said elsewhere:
I guess I should have added: Jobs with absolutely nothing else whatsoever to offer, also have to pay big money, to attract/keep anyone.

But in many of those cases, it can get to the stage where it's just not enough. You only live once, and there are no pockets in shrouds!

In this business Nirvana is probably to be found flying a floatplane round the Indian Ocean for beer money.

What a mess.

...and you'll need that 'good deal' (do an internet search on the cost of living, housing and education in Hong Kong) because a new-joining DEFO will be on the bottom of a seniority list of approximately 3,200 pilots which will affect command training and staff travel priority. Commands are running at far less than 100 per year. Do the arithmetic. The airport is becoming slot-limited and Cathay Pacific is a one trick pony in its only hub. Crew - management relations could be described as 'poisonous'.

And among the SOs, on their own crappy deal waiting for their upgrades, you will be about as welcome as a bacon sandwich at a bar mitzvah.

Capt Ecureuil and McNugget can i please clarify that the starting salary at CX for DEFO is £140k??

No idea, it's just what McNugget has told us all.

Actually that must be take home pay if as he says "the same take home pay as a very senior BA LH captain as a year 1 FO" .... I have a feeling that may be a little fib.

You tell me what salary you need to gross, in order to net 10-11k a month. Then tell me where it is on the BA pay scale. It's pretty high up on the one that I'm looking at. If you prefer, you can give me a years of service estimate instead. 'Senior' is a subjective term, after all.

In my circumstance (married without kids), it's north of £200k. Please point out where you believe I was 'fibbing'.

The salary on a normal month of flying a is about £10500 including duty pay and HKPA, but excluding allowances and 13th month/12 if you get it.

I typically got about £600-700 in allowances, and pro-rata 13th month is 750. So, if you expect 13th month, add 1400 to that figure above. Call it £12,000 to make the maths easy. Tax depends on your circumstance, but I paid about 11% this year.

I'll leave it to you to decide if it's enough. I'm providing facts and nothing else.

£12,000 per month? (If you're lucky) Is that really all they pay you to live in one of the most expensive and polluted cities on the planet, and/or work for that unhappy outfit? A quick read of 'fragrant harbour' suggests it may need to be more.

You're a foreigner in a foreign land. The fag end of colonialism. Reading in other places, it doesn't sound comfortable, or sustainable?

Of course in any case, a new joiner is highly unlikely to ever see those numbers before the company goes down the tubes. As is suggested elsewhere on pprune.

As a point of information, a significant number of UK pilots are non UK taxpayers! Your figures do not compare favourably with them. Others, like me, PREFER, for family reasons, to be UK taxpayers. No pockets in shrouds etc.

Once again, your ADHD is causing you to derail the thread. I'm answering questions.

Those figures are what new joiners will receive. No luck to it.

Oh commuting? That must be exclusive to Nigels, I take it. Nobody does that here.

I have the right to live in he U.K., the US, NZ and HK. Amazingly, I choose to live here. Some people quite like it. Not everyone sees bread and dripping in the cold as the ultimate lifestyle choice, either.

Quite sustainable and comfortable, thanks. Enjoy the winter.

The salary for an level 1 FO is HKD$81,292 per month.

Anything above and beyond that is not contractual and is subject to "policy" change.

McNugget, stop getting so angry... I'm asking questions, you are just confusing the figures.

Senior BA Capt - I assumed you meant someone on PP24.

Are your figures on both sides BA/Cathay including things like DOA, FHR, allowances and in CX case housing + schooling? i.e the full package.

Never mind what you earn, that's irrelevant (although I'm glad you're happy) unless you are a PP1 Cathay FO .

My fib comment is that you imply that a new entrant PP1 CX FO earns the same as a PP24 BA Capt. If that is the case I'll be happy to take my comment back and offer many humble apologises.

For anyone else in CX - what's the deal with DEFO's?... and a previous question - Are not the SO's a little upset?

Edit... Thanks Eyes only.. are posts crossed

No anger over here, Sir. Apologies if that's the way I came across.

Wires obviously crossed, which is why I suggested a longevity-based answer. My point is that a PP1 DEFO will net a similar figure to a 'senior' BA captain. That is, after tax, NI, and all the rest, £10.5-11k.

What I make isn't particularly relevant. But I'm only a couple of pay points down the track, therefore quite familiar with what I speak.

I'm not sure what DOA/FHR are. I'm sure there's a CX equivalent, but to answer your question - that figure is the cash figure you'll be paid, and can do with as you wish. It doesn't include schooling, and there is no housing. Don't know much about the schooling, other than it's 75% or 90% of the fee, depending on the type of school. No clue on the dollar figure, sorry.

Regarding SOs - it's put some noses out of joint, and I feel for them. But, it's happened before and it'll happen again. While I would have been unimpressed if it had affected my FO upgrade, I was cognisant that it was a possibility before I signed on the line. The contract has provisions for it. A bit like joining Emirates, and getting upset at DECs.

No, the base salary plus HDP is contractual. Much like at BA, there is significant chunk of change above the basic pay point.

It's not that hard. Basic salary for year 1 F/O is $81,292. Annual increment is c.$2,000 per month. Plus Hourly Duty Pay (up to 10% if you work a full 84 hr month (unlikely on 747)). Plus 15.5% by way of pension. Plus $14,000 'housing allowance' (paid as cash). Plus some school fees. Plus cash allowances in outports. Plus overtime if above 84 hrs in a month. Plus 13th month salary in december...probably. Hong Kong dollar is pegged to US dollar at 7.8. Income tax is max 15%.

Suitably qualified S/Os had the opportunity to apply for the F/O positions. Some did.

Hong Kong is really expensive. Schools can be hard to get into, depending on age.

McNugget any relation to the famous SO with a similar name ?

Whilst HDP is contractual, you cannot bank on it. You have little control over how many hours you will get each month, and since they are hiring onto on the Freighter and A330 you will not be doing 84 hours a months, less. Much less especially at the start. Most Airbus and Freighter pilots never see overtime.

profo

There is no "pension", and due to changes in legislation that money is locked up for a long time even if you resign.

HKPA/Education etc are all subject to "policy" changes. Allowances at outports are rumored to be taken away shortly, they are not contractual. 13th month (there are 52/4=13 4 week blocks i.e. "months" per year). The company may pay you for 48 weeks or 52 weeks depending on how they feel.

Go back 20, 15, 10 year ago to see how much they have cut to see the direction things have moved.

Look at the high inflation rate, CX wages in real terms have gone backwards 10-20% in the last 5 years. Try getting kids into school, some are demanding 4 million dollar debentures to get your kid in. Have fun getting a slot if you did not put their name down the day after they were born.

Cx is giving financial results tomorrow, that will give a clear snapshot of the situation.

No, they aren't. They're announcing some form of strategic plan. But that's today.

I'm not Canadian, but can I help as a Brit?

you sure can !

Final interview ! DEFO
 

Hello everyone,
If one has cleared Day 1 ( Sim, technical exam, group assessment ), how much time one has to wait for the final result after Day 2 ( interview, medical, English exam ) ?? Thank you in advance.

Hi,
I did the day 1 last week on thursday.
positive reply by mail at 15:20 local thursday (they said to wait until 18:00)
day 2 passed friday.
positive reply yesterday....so after 4 working days....
cheers
:ok:

no news since I sent the required paperwork few months ago.
do they at least tell you when they don't rate you as suitable for interview ?