Germany is a signatory to the conventions of the International Labor Organization. Those representing Ryanair pilots in Germany should read the ILO Guide to Regulating the Employment Relationship in Europe:-

http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/pub...cms_209280.pdf

“GERMANY– “Employee-like persons” (or quasi workers) are recognized in Germany (so-called arbeitnehmerahnliche person). Labor courts have jurisdiction in relation to employee-like persons and the general terms and conditions of their contracts are subject to judicial supervision.
Employee-like persons are entitled to collective bargaining. The essential features of the category of employee-like persons are statutorily established in Section 12a of the Act on Collective Bargaining Agreements”

The same ILO conventions defining the ‘employment relationship’ and associated collective bargaining rights apply to pilots at another low cost carrier. For whatever reason, those chumps would rather pay union dues for representation to the service provider agency, rather than representation to the airline controlling their working and “family” life.

Ignoring the race to bottom in T's & C's, one thing has been over looked. And that, very simply, is Ryanair's training and operating methods. They turn out good if not excellent pilots. But their lack of loyalty to their staff means their experienced ones will leave as soon as they are unhappy with their lot. Their loyalty to RYR is at the same level as their customers - little more than one flight. That has to be an expensive way of doing business.

..................

As long as they're left to pushing buttons in the right sequence.
Sorry, I couldn't resist. I am one of them. But it wasn't thanks to their rigid SOPs and scare mongering over FD-off approaches that got my hand-eye coordination back from instructing days.

Piltdown Man & Raven 1.

"Good if not excellent pilots"

Genuine questions
1. What is an excellent pilot? What sets him/he apart from their peers?
2.What is unique about FR training that they turn out so many of these excellent pilots ?
3.which airlines are not turning out excellent pilots ?
4.do you both work for FR and what other major airlines have you worked for that would give you the experience base to make the above statement ?

Both of it, raw data and eye balling a visual, are required skills don't you think? After all the recruitment team thinks so as they test you on a raw data at the interview.

The visual requires finesse, but the raw data requires more mental capacity as you are bouncing around, in and out of clouds, configuring, slowing, changing winds. And regular practice is required to hone those skills. Unfortunately we really only have one chance during line flying, as any company likely takes a dim view at unnecessary go-arounds. At least we could be honest about it and say "we're only as good as the automatics".

I think you (and others praising FR pilots skill level) might be somewhat confused... there is a difference between a pilot, and what you seem to applaud, a system operator, which is what FR creates.

I agree, FR pilots might be excellent at operating the systems, with one of the most comprehensive SOPs in Europe. Everything is controlled to the tiniest detail. And with good reason, as they employ hundreds of low-time people with 200hrs. When they finish their simulator licence (MPL), they know how to push the buttons and what speed/config to have at the different phases of flight.
However I have talked to several ex-FR Captains and DY-instructors (DY has hired quite a few FR F/Os the last few years) and they tell a different story. Ask a FR F/O to do a visual approach and see what happens...
Of course this doesn't apply to every FR pilot, but many did not know how to fly a visual, even with autopilot basic modes. And flying manually was almost regarded as something "dangerous" and not to be done unless they really had to.
What kind of "pilots" is that?! Excellent system operators? Pherhaps... Excellent pilots? I beg to differ...

I'm not blaming the pilots themselves, because anyone can do anything with training. This is a management issue, and as a result of hiring pilots with no flying experience.


I totally agree with you, if done at an inappropriate time is may increase the risks, but your "either/or" mindset is unfortunate. A pilot should be proficient at both aspects. Yes, we have to know our SOP, FMS, automation etc, but we must also know how to take over and do things manually, if/when things fail.

And Blue06, do these guys move right to left with the same level of manual flying skills ?

I am not an apologist for Ryanair. But there are definitely worse contracts around. You get to fly newish airplanes with what most consider good training and sops. If you pass muster you are be pretty much guaranteed an upgrade and can move on to the sandpit/China or your national carrier in due course. I do accept that forty years of this is probably not sustainable. But 100k plus after three plus years is hardly exploitation.

On a recurrent sim I unfroze my ATPL. The TRE for the day told me how he had to fail a guy the previous day for cocking up three raw data ILSes from intercept heading.

Sounds like the typical Ryanair excuse. Other airlines actively encourage manual flying and has no limit on FD on/off or weather requirements. They trust their crew to excersise good judgement. I always ask my colleauge if he's up for a bit of manual flight. I think everyone should be able to coop with a raw data ILS to a five hundred foot ceiling. Of course it is more workload than riding the autopilot, but not beyond manageable. The thing is, one day you might need it...

No answers then ?
Perhaps you will retract ?

Been at this for a bit now , as for excellent pilots . Mmmmm
Self praise is no praise

Oh dear, the "hand flying is unsafe / puts a massive strain on the Pilot monitoring" brigade is back. Ask the passengers of the Air france A330 or the Air Asia A320 or the FlyDubai 737 (to mention but three recent examples) what they think of their pilots manual handling skills. As with any skill, use it or loose it. Loosing it is not very wise if you fly aircraft for a living. As far as practicing in the sim we all know that 15 minutes once every 6 months (if that) is simply nowhere near enough to maintain the required level of proficiency.

All pilots MUST be able to hand fly their aircraft without any noticeable reduction in safety or an unacceptable increase in workload, with regular practice it really is not that hard. If they cannot the solution is certainly not to stick the autopilot on and hope their skill shortage is never needed. Does that mean doing raw data holds at Heathrow? certainly not but it does mean manual flying should be encouraged when appropriate.

You had me until I read this, how familiar are you with training in the modern age?

An MPL is not a simulator license. Further to that, Ryanair do not run an MPL scheme, none of their pilots would have an MPL, it isn't recognised in the Ryanair OM A.

Utter tosh. The benefits of regular practice in raw data flying far outweigh any minimal (perceived) increase in risk.

Go practice raw data, crosswinds, OEI, etc in the excellent FB SIM facility

How on earth can you practice/improve/maintain handling skills to cope with challenging manoeuvres in a Fixed Base sim?

LOL, how else would you call this license ?
Please remind us how many simulator hours and how many real flying hours are there, in an MPL training ?

A modular fATPL will give you a minimum of 200 hours of real flight and a maximum of 50 hours of simulator.

The reason becouse there is so many SOP's in the company is to protect against the low experience pilots or cadets mistakes. No more no less.
There is no better pilots in Ryanair than in my previous company. I would love to fly a "real" visual circuit in this company or a "raw data" app but I have to accept the rules of the company. It is not a company for "play with the aircraft" for me is my job and I just follow procedures. They pay me and tell me how they want to do things and I just follow their SOPs.
But I have to say that some pilots here think they are at the top and never have flown in other company, continent or airlines...

The ex-RYR pilots I have worked with have shown a clear understanding of what is required of them as pilots and consistently deliver the goods without hassle. They also appear to be able to do pretty reasonable visual approaches, with or without FD. Their knowledge has been excellent and are a pleasure to work with. And no, I have never ever set foot on a RYR aircraft, nor do I ever intend to do so.

Hi Guys,

Can anyone tell me why, if RYR is so short of guys, they won't consider NTR F/Os? I have applied with 7000 jet time, coming from long haul but wanting to go back to Europe, and they are not looking for guys with my profile at the moment, which is very surprising! They then don't want experienced guys? I have twice more hours than many captains at RYR, and 4000 of them are on the short haul in Europe.

Any idea? :)

I guess it's the same reason they laughed me out the door when XL went bust, because I wanted a salary!