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Did REPA achieve anything? Did IALPA, after the huge increase in subs from RYR pilots, achieve anything? Why not? If either of those organisations could not coordinate any action then an ERC has no chance?
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Wake up
eduelp
Right on. Time for pilots to stop accepting poor conditions, pay to fly. Price is what you pay. Value is what you get. What we think, we become. We all need to play our part and be responsable to that the ones who have their asses on the line get the pay they deserve. Remember the CEOs get bonuses to negotiate our pay less. Until pilots stand up like men.... Not easy but worth fighting for better conditions and get the respect back. As the Sully movie comes out |
Just got this off ppjn:
"new agency called bluesky set up with much lower pay rates. Capt rates 125e per hr vs 145 storm, top fo rate 63e per hr vs 83 on brookfield or 75 with storm..." Any truth to it? If true it, its in stark contrast to the record profits Ryanair are making at the minute. |
According to an german newspaper that's correct. It's mentioned in the Sueddeutsche
In einem internen Bluesky-Schreiben, das WDR, NDR und SZ vorliegt, werden die Details der neuen Arbeitsverträge dargestellt. Demnach werden die Piloten weiterhin nur nach Stunden bezahlt, Kapitäne bekommen rund 125 Euro, Co-Piloten 63 Euro, hinzu kommt noch Urlaubsgeld. Erreichen die Piloten die maximal zulässige Zahl von 900 Stunden pro Jahr, verdienen Kapitäne etwa 125 000 Euro, die Co-Piloten etwa die Hälfte. Allerdings zahlt Bluesky dem Schreiben zufolge kein Basisgehalt und will nur 450 Flugstunden pro Jahr garantieren. Bei Krankheit verdienen die Piloten nichts. Ryanair will Piloten nun doch anstellen - Wirtschaft - Süddeutsche.de |
MP. Are you suggesting that an airline can force a self-employed contractor to be provide their services via one agency instead of another, with no choice, when one agency is offering lower rates than another?
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I would say they offer only a contract from this particular agency. So no choice between the different agency's
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Originally Posted by RAT 5
(Post 9546886)
MP. Are you suggesting that an airline can force a self-employed contractor to be provide their services via one agency instead of another, with no choice, when one agency is offering lower rates than another?
Ryanair pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools Pretty drastic reductions if indeed true, to spell it out: Storm Captain E145 x 850hrs = E123,250 gross pa 'bluesky' Captain E125 x 850hrs = E106,250 gross pa Brookfield SFO E83 x 850hrs = E70,550 gross pa Storm SFO E75 x 850hrs = E63,750 gross pa 'bluesky' SFO E63 x 850hrs = E53,550 gross pa |
Is the employment model with Bluesky the same as with Brookfield/Storm?
I have a gut feeling this model is similar to the cabin crew arrangement (and Norwegian), i.e. direct employment with the agency. Would it not be suicidal to put up another self-employment scam after all the fuss that's been with that employment model in Germany? |
If that is the case, its arguably a step in the right direction, although the rates of pay are a step in the wrong direction!
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Brookfield -> Investigation -> Brookfield closed.
Storm Mc Ginley (lower pay) -> Investigation -> Storm closed. Bluesky (lower pay) -> guess in a couple of years. And so on.... Congratulations. |
As eduelp eloquently said on the previous page:
Sadly all these ever decreasing T&C don't have a guiltier party than the pilot community itself... We have seen and accepted all these ever decreasing T&C for many many years with no action whatsoever. This is even more true in airlines of the likes of RYR. Don't blame recessions, don't blame the lack of European Commission support, don't even blame MOL. In the end it is just us the pilots having no balls at all the utter culprits of this situation. It really pisses me off... And until that changes, the T&Cs all over Europe will keep going down... We, as a pilot community, are indeed the "utter culprits of this situation." |
Indeed. What is very sad is the reversal of old edicts. I have an old mento from my father which he had on his desk throughout his management career. "Things go wrong from the top down." It used to be true in the days of respectful ethics. It related to internal workings of the company and any effects on productivity & profit. It was the chiefs who had the greatest effect on those not the indians.
Sadly, the same can not now be said of T's & C's. Under pressure from the top the lower levels have capitulated and allowed things to to go wrong from the bottom. Back to the future and the middle ages of peasantry and land owners. |
I came across some info about the bluesky, apparently they were forced to create this setup as they now will have to pay a certain amount of social contribution , not much but some, and give holiday pay and son on to be able to be legal in Germany , this setup of course required to move the money from pilots pocket to company as to be the same cost overall. In all honesty , a direct employed pilot with Ryanair can't be expected to pay all taxes and legal social security and earn -50% net of a contractor that refuses to pay , in most cases , the most basic contributions and laught his way forward (ex. 3700 FO Ryanair , 7800 FO Brooksfield, seen with my own 2 eyes) . Still not ideal but this is slightly more plain field . But I may be wrong, all this info was from a forum of pilots working for the mentioned company .
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I'm always surprised that the UK HMRC hasn't clamped down heavily on contract pilots.
This must be a political expedient rather than one based purely on regulatory considerations. Self-employed people must, together with other considerations, have the opportunity to substitute themselves and should be able to show that they do not have a fixed location to carry out there duties. Otherwise it could be construed that they are 'employed'. How a pilot could 'substitute' their services (by allowing another, similarly qualified individual, to carry out their duties in their absence) is hard to imagine - and the left or right hand seat of a jet is a pretty 'fixed' as their base through which they carry out those duties. This employment -v- self-employment arguments are ongoing in many industries - maybe the HMRC aren't really that bothered after all. But it is a real concern and any decent contract for professional services will make it VERY clear that you are NOT an employee by expressly stating that it is not a contract of employment. Maybe the airlines make that very clear too - the problem is that the manner in which the service is provided contradicts any terms and conditions stated to the contrary and the regulations of the HMRC. I've stated in the past that one English pilot I met, who flew with an Irish carrier, openly stated that if the HMRC could track him down as a UK pilot, flying for an Irish carrier and based in Spain good look to them. They haven't so far, so lots of tax evaded there ... !!! lol |
Out of curiosity. If one would join now non type rated with 2800 TT of which 2000 Jet. How long before a shot at the left seat?
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For the command you need:
- 2900h TT - 1300H on JAR25 aircraft - 500h on 737 - 1 winter with Ryanair - 2 sim with grade good or better Do the maths |
in everyone's rush to get a left seat in a shiny new jet, they are accepting reduced/lower contracts and terms to get the left seat. They have achieved, in aviation terms, instant gratification.
Where to from there? NOWHERE!!! After a short time in the industry, a mid twenty something pilot is in the left seat of a shiny new jet, on poor conditions. Now the trick is to find a job with the great package the kid saw when he/she was young. Ooops, that package no longer exists. I think the big change will come when the present group of younger pilots realise this, see what the next 40 years in the industry at these poor conditions will be like and start demanding better |
I think the big change will come when the present group of younger pilots realise this, see what the next 40 years in the industry at these poor conditions will be like and start demanding better
There are those who opinion that this realisation will cause young aspiring pilots to change course and not sign up. Supply & demand forces might then come into play. China seems to be throwing money like confetti. There must be a reason for it. Will it ever happen in the western world? Doubt it, but there does need to be an adjustment. |
McJobs :ugh:
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Interesting development in Germany.
Vereinigung Cockpit e.V. : Details Pilots of Ryanair in Germany join together The German based pilots of the airline Ryanair founded a Company Council today under the umbrella of the German Airline Pilots Association (Vereinigung Cockpit) (VC). For the first time, Ryanair pilots are organizing themselves in Germany in order to avoid the airline's questionable treatment of its employees. The goal will be to positively influence Ryanair's employment conditions. "What is self-evident for other employees in Germany, we must first achieve at Ryanair," says a member of the Company Council. "Decent employment contracts instead of atypical employment is one of the main goals of the Company Council." Based on the principle, pilots for pilots, the Company Council is composed of active Ryanair pilots representing all groups. Members include Captains and First Officers who are directly employed as well as working for Ryanair on the so-called "Contractor model". To protect the Company Council from possible reprisals from Ryanair, the members of the Council will remain anonymous for the time being. The current situation at Ryanair creates uncertainty within the pilot body and puts unusual pressure on the employees. The on-going court trials and investigations, including many house searches in Germany, show just how dramatic the situation is for the Ryanair pilots. "The founding of the Ryanair Company Council clearly shows that the airline's pilots are no longer willing to accept the doubtful methods used by their employer. In the future, they will act united to achieve their basic employee rights," says Ilja Schulz, president of the German Airlines Pilots Association. "In Germany we have workers' rights which apply to all pilots based here. Ryanair must finally acknowledge this. Ryanair pilots must be able to express their wishes and concerns about working conditions and salary without fear of discrimination from the management, " says Schulz. The newly formed group benefits from the long-standing experience of the German Airlines Pilots Association in aviation safety and employee representation within the aviation industry. |
Germany is a signatory to the conventions of the International Labor Organization. Those representing Ryanair pilots in Germany should read the ILO Guide to Regulating the Employment Relationship in Europe:-
http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/pub...cms_209280.pdf “GERMANY– “Employee-like persons” (or quasi workers) are recognized in Germany (so-called arbeitnehmerahnliche person). Labor courts have jurisdiction in relation to employee-like persons and the general terms and conditions of their contracts are subject to judicial supervision. Employee-like persons are entitled to collective bargaining. The essential features of the category of employee-like persons are statutorily established in Section 12a of the Act on Collective Bargaining Agreements” The same ILO conventions defining the ‘employment relationship’ and associated collective bargaining rights apply to pilots at another low cost carrier. For whatever reason, those chumps would rather pay union dues for representation to the service provider agency, rather than representation to the airline controlling their working and “family” life. |
Ignoring the race to bottom in T's & C's, one thing has been over looked. And that, very simply, is Ryanair's training and operating methods. They turn out good if not excellent pilots. But their lack of loyalty to their staff means their experienced ones will leave as soon as they are unhappy with their lot. Their loyalty to RYR is at the same level as their customers - little more than one flight. That has to be an expensive way of doing business.
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..................
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As long as they're left to pushing buttons in the right sequence.
Sorry, I couldn't resist. I am one of them. But it wasn't thanks to their rigid SOPs and scare mongering over FD-off approaches that got my hand-eye coordination back from instructing days. |
Piltdown Man & Raven 1.
"Good if not excellent pilots" Genuine questions 1. What is an excellent pilot? What sets him/he apart from their peers? 2.What is unique about FR training that they turn out so many of these excellent pilots ? 3.which airlines are not turning out excellent pilots ? 4.do you both work for FR and what other major airlines have you worked for that would give you the experience base to make the above statement ? |
The excellent TREs are a key part of that. And in my book, a propensity to hand fly to 20000 feet, or pester to fly raw data does not impress me much. Done at an inappropriate time, it frankly does the opposite. However it is a pity that proper 'Mk1 eyeball' circuits are verboten, as that really does show up a good pair of hands, and saves fuel. (And a bad pair of hands, so I guess that's why) The visual requires finesse, but the raw data requires more mental capacity as you are bouncing around, in and out of clouds, configuring, slowing, changing winds. And regular practice is required to hone those skills. Unfortunately we really only have one chance during line flying, as any company likely takes a dim view at unnecessary go-arounds. At least we could be honest about it and say "we're only as good as the automatics". |
Originally Posted by midnight cruiser
(Post 9688477)
Well, I have worked at several different airlines in 25 years or so, so I think that would give me the experience base to confirm that Ryanair copilots, and presumably Captains are very good indeed; certainly well above the average in Europe. Good handling, good SOP adherence, and not least, good airmanship.
I agree, FR pilots might be excellent at operating the systems, with one of the most comprehensive SOPs in Europe. Everything is controlled to the tiniest detail. And with good reason, as they employ hundreds of low-time people with 200hrs. When they finish their simulator licence (MPL), they know how to push the buttons and what speed/config to have at the different phases of flight. However I have talked to several ex-FR Captains and DY-instructors (DY has hired quite a few FR F/Os the last few years) and they tell a different story. Ask a FR F/O to do a visual approach and see what happens... Of course this doesn't apply to every FR pilot, but many did not know how to fly a visual, even with autopilot basic modes. And flying manually was almost regarded as something "dangerous" and not to be done unless they really had to. What kind of "pilots" is that?! Excellent system operators? Pherhaps... Excellent pilots? I beg to differ... I'm not blaming the pilots themselves, because anyone can do anything with training. This is a management issue, and as a result of hiring pilots with no flying experience. And in my book, a propensity to hand fly to 20000 feet, or pester to fly raw data does not impress me much. Done at an inappropriate time, it frankly does the opposite. |
And Blue06, do these guys move right to left with the same level of manual flying skills ?
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I am not an apologist for Ryanair. But there are definitely worse contracts around. You get to fly newish airplanes with what most consider good training and sops. If you pass muster you are be pretty much guaranteed an upgrade and can move on to the sandpit/China or your national carrier in due course. I do accept that forty years of this is probably not sustainable. But 100k plus after three plus years is hardly exploitation.
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And Blue06, do these guys move right to left with the same level of manual flying skills ? To unnecessarily increase workload and risk of error, both for PF and PM, is quite simply poor airmanship, on a revenue flight full of passengers who have paid to have the flight operated in the safest possible manner |
No answers then ?
Perhaps you will retract ? Been at this for a bit now , as for excellent pilots . Mmmmm Self praise is no praise |
Oh dear, the "hand flying is unsafe / puts a massive strain on the Pilot monitoring" brigade is back. Ask the passengers of the Air france A330 or the Air Asia A320 or the FlyDubai 737 (to mention but three recent examples) what they think of their pilots manual handling skills. As with any skill, use it or loose it. Loosing it is not very wise if you fly aircraft for a living. As far as practicing in the sim we all know that 15 minutes once every 6 months (if that) is simply nowhere near enough to maintain the required level of proficiency.
All pilots MUST be able to hand fly their aircraft without any noticeable reduction in safety or an unacceptable increase in workload, with regular practice it really is not that hard. If they cannot the solution is certainly not to stick the autopilot on and hope their skill shortage is never needed. Does that mean doing raw data holds at Heathrow? certainly not but it does mean manual flying should be encouraged when appropriate. |
When they finish their simulator licence (MPL) An MPL is not a simulator license. Further to that, Ryanair do not run an MPL scheme, none of their pilots would have an MPL, it isn't recognised in the Ryanair OM A. |
To unnecessarily increase workload and risk of error, both for PF and PM, is quite simply poor airmanship, on a revenue flight full of passengers who have paid to have the flight operated in the safest possible manner. |
Go practice raw data, crosswinds, OEI, etc in the excellent FB SIM facility
How on earth can you practice/improve/maintain handling skills to cope with challenging manoeuvres in a Fixed Base sim? |
Originally Posted by Officer Kite
(Post 9689613)
You had me until I read this, how familiar are you with training in the modern age?
An MPL is not a simulator license. Further to that, Ryanair do not run an MPL scheme, none of their pilots would have an MPL, it isn't recognised in the Ryanair OM A. Please remind us how many simulator hours and how many real flying hours are there, in an MPL training ? A modular fATPL will give you a minimum of 200 hours of real flight and a maximum of 50 hours of simulator. |
The reason becouse there is so many SOP's in the company is to protect against the low experience pilots or cadets mistakes. No more no less.
There is no better pilots in Ryanair than in my previous company. I would love to fly a "real" visual circuit in this company or a "raw data" app but I have to accept the rules of the company. It is not a company for "play with the aircraft" for me is my job and I just follow procedures. They pay me and tell me how they want to do things and I just follow their SOPs. But I have to say that some pilots here think they are at the top and never have flown in other company, continent or airlines... |
The ex-RYR pilots I have worked with have shown a clear understanding of what is required of them as pilots and consistently deliver the goods without hassle. They also appear to be able to do pretty reasonable visual approaches, with or without FD. Their knowledge has been excellent and are a pleasure to work with. And no, I have never ever set foot on a RYR aircraft, nor do I ever intend to do so.
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Hi Guys,
Can anyone tell me why, if RYR is so short of guys, they won't consider NTR F/Os? I have applied with 7000 jet time, coming from long haul but wanting to go back to Europe, and they are not looking for guys with my profile at the moment, which is very surprising! They then don't want experienced guys? I have twice more hours than many captains at RYR, and 4000 of them are on the short haul in Europe. Any idea? :) |
I guess it's the same reason they laughed me out the door when XL went bust, because I wanted a salary!
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