PPRuNe Forums - Norwegian B787

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- - Norwegian B787 - FLL based (https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/585260-norwegian-b787-fll-based.html)

The problem is not NAS. Are unions and EU law that allows that type of employment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Direct Bondi (Post 9539758)

Norwegian’s FLL based pilots who will commute cannot participate in any US airline jumpseat program. Approvals require the employer to be an airline, not a third-party agency such as Orient Ship Management. Ongoing incompetence in managing crew resources may preclude the purchase of FLL commuting tickets on anything other than very short notice with associated high cost. Additionally, European pilot unions have not yet considered their response to the proposal allowing FAA licensed pilots to operate European registered and regulated aircraft for the stated period.

Eventually, the situation may improve. By recruiting US based pilots Kjos has invited a very large elephant into the room in the form of the 1926 Railway Labor Act, RLA. The invitation is surprising given the recent victory by US based NAI flight attendants in obtaining union recognition, representation and collective agreement rights directly with their “real employer”, Norwegian:

http://cabinassociation.org/wp-conte...NMB-No.-35.pdf

http://cabinassociation.org/wp-conte...ss-Release.pdf

During the Norwegian Cabin Crew Association application to the National Mediation Board for union recognition, Norwegian and their collaborator in employment circumvention fought tooth and nail against the reality that Norwegian acts as the real employer:

“Norwegian contends that OSM is the sole employer of the cabin crew and that neither NAR nor NAS exercises control over OSM. In addition, Norwegian contends that they lack the continuing authority to supervise and direct the manner in which the Cabin Crew members render their services”.

However, the Agreement for Provision of Services of Aircraft Crew between OSM and Norwegian states:

“OSM, in exchange for compensation, provides employees to perform work as part of the customers business under the customers control and management”

The Railway Labor Act states:

“The jurisdiction of the RLA extends to every common carrier by air engaged in interstate or foreign commerce and, every air pilot or other person who performs any work as an employee or subordinate official of such carrier or carriers, subject to its or their continuing authority to supervise and direct the manner of rendition of his services”

Consequently, both Norwegian and OSM failed, abysmally, in their attempt to obstruct cabin crew being allowed to ballot for union representation as “employees” of Norwegian. The full report may be read at link:

https://storage.googleapis.com/dakot...NMB-No.-21.pdf

So, if you live in the FLL area and are prepared to forego labor rights and labor principles with your “real employer” and pay 30K for the privilege, until such time as your group follows the lead of the US based cabin crew to organize union representation, the smiling rock ape regime may be for you.

Just so you all know - you don't pay for the bond , the bond is only paid - or portion left on it if you leave within 3 years . Bonds are standard in Europe with most airlines but again as long as you stay for the three years there is nothing to pay

Thanks for your input - not defending , just giving fact about how things work in Europe and Far East . A guy with 250 hours can start at a carrier in the U.K. On a 737 at 70 000 sterling - 35 days off immediately and have a bond . That bond is not paid unless you leave within 3 years . Now how much does American pay first year for a new hire ? It's all relative both with good points and bad points . Personally I like the US model much better than the European . Over there you can have second officers , first officers , senior first officers . You are incorrect though , many airlines in the Far East use recruiting agencies alone .

250hour f/o starting on £70k? You must be joking

Joking ? No when I was first employed by a certain carrier there in 2004 it's what I started at including salary flight pay pension brought it up over that amount.

I have a company contacting me currently starting salary is 69.8

That sort of pay is certainly far from the norm for that level of experience now in the UK

As I said I have a current contract sitting in my hands from an agency for a 737 job . I am assuming it's Royal Mail and it's starting at just over 70 k . So I have to disagree.

Sigma aviation 70k to start southern U.K. Base !

But you say above you started in 2004 so hardly a 250hour newbee. It is just :mad: that such salaries are available to low hours pilots in the UK or Europe.

It's funny how people always talk about this and that airline dragging down the standards. It's the people who accept those jobs that are dragging down the standards. These companies would not fly very much if people would refuse to take those jobs.

iaveight and Direct Bondi are correct in their analysis of the AFA/CWA drive to gain recognition of the NMB, National Mediation Board. The Board's finding that the contracting company was sufficiently close and exercised sufficient control over employee's so as to be indistinguishable from the carrier itself. NMB recognition triggers:

45 U.S. Code § 152 - General duties
First. Duty of carriers and employees to settle disputes
It shall be the duty of all carriers, their officers, agents, and employees to exert every reasonable effort to make and maintain agreements concerning rates of pay, rules, and working conditions, and to settle all disputes, whether arising out of the application of such agreements or otherwise, in order to avoid any interruption to commerce or to the operation of any carrier growing out of any dispute between the carrier and the employees thereof.

This is a huge win for AFA. While it does not guarantee a contract it places Norwegian under the RLA, which at least makes them play by some rules.

Update interview

Gentlemen please any news regarding interview for RCA?

What to expect?

Thanks for help

Despite great expectations, no 787's are based in FLL. Could it be because the airline is overstretched?

“On 8 December the Financial Times reported investor concerns over profitability and debt at Norwegian Air Shuttle” – Link:

https://www.aviationanalytics.com/20...overstretched/

I’m no financial wizard and I don’t have a Spanish ATPL, but all those red and negative numbers are not good (Kool-Aid is no substitute for reality).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Direct Bondi (Post 10079723)

This was my understanding as well, 787 were suppossed to be based out of FLL along with both FA and pilots. The base was meant to grow substantially.

Something does not seem right here. Pilots are training to be based there but this certainly has the feeling of a position with not a lot of security for FLL based pilots.

I could be wrong and have misread the situation but it does not give me that warm fuzzy feeling one should get with a position like this.

No it’s not overstretched.
I’m not sure how 787 could be based at FLL as they are ever going to be N reg.

Most people don't make job decisions based on assumptions, and I don't see any source that there was ever meant to be an aircraft based in FLL, maybe someone can prove me wrong?

Again I ask WHY an aircraft base would increase or decrease job security for those crew based there?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEDude (Post 9546032)

You will not be branded a "scab" in the U.S. The term "scab" in the States applies to to workers who cross union picket lines to work jobs that a union is striking against. It does not apply to people who are working for companies that are not experiencing union action (unless the company is providing workers to cover for another company's struck work such as when FalconAir was brought in to provide lift for Spirit when the Spirit pilots were on strike). It also does not apply to pilots who are working for less money that their counterparts. If the term "scab" applied to pilots who worked for less money and benefits than their counterparts, then ALPA and APA are guilty of creating "scabs" when they agreed to the B-scale wages of the 1980s. If someone refers to Norwegian pilots as "scabs" in the U.S. they are ignorant fools and not worth the time to worry about. Besides, beyond denying use of the jumpseat, which Norwegian pilots would not have access to, there is nothing an ALPA, APA, SWAPA or Teamsters pilot could do, so why would you care if one of them called you a "scab" out of ignorance?

You will not be branded a scab. You’ll be the next lowest and people, including hiring boards will look at you like you’re scum of the earth. You’ll also be blacklisted, blocked on the radio and shunned by your fellow aviators for flying for a union, and contract busting operator. You’ll also have the honor of flying a Boeing for less than a CRJ pilot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEDude (Post 9558079)

This was brought up in another forum -

Norwegian could be looking in to syphoning pilots from the many Miami area secondary cargo airlines such as Centurion, Amerijet, SkyLease, or Florida West. These airlines pay less than Norwegian for wide body cargo flying. The chance to do some "more prestigious" flying on brand new 787s for a bit more pay could be very tempting to those guys, especially if they already live in south Florida.

I think these operators are all bankrupt. Also, Ommi and Kalitta are hiring. Check their pay rates. Captains top out at almost $300 an hour and Union protection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEDude (Post 9558079)

How many of those pilots are willing to tackle the license conversion that's required coupled with a training bond ? It appears to be a heck of an effort to undertake while flying full time:

Training cost bond

For pilots not current on B737 it will be a Non-Compete clause in the contract for the first three years. If you hold an FAA flight crew license, Norwegian will support conversion training to obtain an EASA license during a time of up to 2 years. During this period, you will operate under a waiver on European registered Aircraft.
https://osmaviation.com/job/contract...s-b787-us-fll/

This from another job post:

"If you hold an FAA flight crew license, Norwegian will support conversion training to obtain an EASA license during a time of up to 2 years. During this period, you will operate under a waiver on European registered aircraft."

"For pilots not current on B787 or B777 there will be a training cost bond, being paid back or decreasing by 1/3 each year over three years..."

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4runner (Post 10097762)

What a load of twaddle. “ blocked on the radio “. Are you a professional pilot or a school yard bully ?

And , regional pilots get paid less in the US than a supermarket trolley collector here in the UK, so please explain who pays these massive CRJ salaries.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meester proach (Post 10098033)

I speak the truth and I don’t care what a non-US pilot think. Look up the number of ads for crj pilots and the bonuses. Also, crj captain pay is ok these days. I’m right and you don’t know of what you speak of.