|
@4runner Why so greedy?
|
This was brought up in another forum -
Norwegian could be looking in to syphoning pilots from the many Miami area secondary cargo airlines such as Centurion, Amerijet, SkyLease, or Florida West. These airlines pay less than Norwegian for wide body cargo flying. The chance to do some "more prestigious" flying on brand new 787s for a bit more pay could be very tempting to those guys, especially if they already live in south Florida. |
Dagens Naeringsliv or DN, Norway’s leading business newspaper, article:
“Kjos aircraft and Spinning Mill Ltd.” – “The boss and spin doctor” http://www.dn.no/meninger/2016/07/08...g-spinneri-ltd Those seeking an indirect and precarious, but “more prestigious” position with Norwegian, should accept the OSM invitation to submit questions, as stated in their advertisement:- http://osmaviation.com/job/contracte...s-b787-us-fll/ “OSM will answer all your queries relating to the contract, employment and training cost bond” [email protected] - Please provide full details:
|
Originally Posted by NEDude
(Post 9558079)
This was brought up in another forum -
Norwegian could be looking in to syphoning pilots from the many Miami area secondary cargo airlines such as Centurion, Amerijet, SkyLease, or Florida West. These airlines pay less than Norwegian for wide body cargo flying. The chance to do some "more prestigious" flying on brand new 787s for a bit more pay could be very tempting to those guys, especially if they already live in south Florida. |
He who knows, and knows he knows-He is wise, follow him!
Great wisdom for a 'RandomPilot', go for it regardless, and just another piece of advise, this one I quote from a brilliant literary man of France:
"Strike out a few sages, and the crowd of human beings is nothing but a horrible assemblage of unfortunate criminals, and the globe contain nothing but corpses....I wish I had never been born"-Voltaire!:E Whether the Emirates scab is right or pretending a clean background from the U.A.E, I do not buy it, I simply do not care, Voltaire's expression above applies very much to the aviators of this world, there is no dignifying respect for morals or principles, is all about vanity.:yuk: |
Guys like myself
I have been watching Norwegian push through Europe and now into the USA. I doubt there are many in my situation that have just moved to Florida from Europe with an EASA ATP and 121 experience on it. While it is below industry standards for the USA there are some attractive qualities in it for me.
Based in Florida, already have a full EASA and FAA ATP, flights to Europe where I lived for the last twelve years. I too was told by an American FO that if someone takes this job they would never work for an American carrier in the future. This has put a damper on it for me, but in the end its not scab labour as no one is crossing picket lines while others protest better pay at their company. To each their own but we all have different circumstances and reasons certain contracts look favorable. My choices at the moment are this, take a regional job flying an EMB of some sort for a regional, try for a mainline with my existing time which is over 6000 hours and over 2000 on a 737 or look at NAS . I won't have to worry about study in two years and can stay in touch with Europe where I have lived and flown for many years. Unless someone here has some good leads in the USA... Guess it all depends how long it takes for me to find employment here. Yes I came here legally :D |
"Unless someone here has some good leads in the USA... Guess it all depends how long it takes for me to find employment here. Yes I came here legally"
iaveight, Have you applied to all the US legacies or LCCs ? You sound competitive for both those levels of airline. Do you have a 4-year degree ? |
degree
No degree unless you count EASA License and all the exams a degree. I do however have a 2 year college diploma in Aviation Management. In the 90s degrees were not offered and I am from Canada originally ..... Only just started to push forward with resumes and applications. Thanks for the response
|
If you don't have a degree and are not pursuing one, your odds of a US Legacy position are paltry. Spirit or other LCC are viable options. Instead of asking for leads, why not get going on applying? And for the record, with the retention bonuses offered, first year regional pay is almost competive with OSM's 787 FO offer. Repulsive to say the least.
Unfortunately OSM prob thinks you are a perfect candidate for this horrific contract. And yes those taking these positions will be looked down upon as scum may not scab, but scum. Sorry to say but in US we have zero history of contracting out brand new WB seats for paltry pay and training bonds. |
I too was told by an American FO that if someone takes this job they would never work for an American carrier in the future You are correct that you would not be considered a scab. The perception might be that you support the inequities of Norwegian's novel and complex labor model. My perception is you are putting food on the table. Pilots in the US are particularly sensitive to any group that threatens their job security and quality of life - The American Dream. This probably has its roots in the United Airlines 1985 strike. During the strike 530 pilots were hired with a directive from the CEO to cross the picket line (scab). The names of the 530 who scabbed were placed in a book and distributed to all UA pilots. The book is updated even today to include the names of relatives who later joined UA. I am not aware that a book of US based pilots flying for Norwegian will be produced. I am aware that Norwegian's pilots will not be permitted to take advantage of the US airline jump-seat scheme to commute to/from work. The Known Crew Member jump-seat program requires participants to be employed by an airline, not a staffing agency. I suggest you explore all options to secure direct airline employment, as opposed to “airline unemployment” via employment with a staffing agency precariously renting pilots to airlines. Your aviation career dream may become a service industry nightmare. Good luck. |
Shed what makes you think I am not applying? I have been in the industry long enough not to use others to get myself a job, but networking always helps.
Paltry without a degree? How would flow through work then with companies like Envoy who say flow though when your number is called without interview |
I agree most should be concerned and want contracts and employment to stay lucrative, I guess everyone in here must be a republican than and want the border wall and strong immigration policies....
Bondi - regarding putting food on table, I think we all are hence why we work for a living. If you are asking whether I need the cash ASAP then NO, I am on full wack till the end of March, my company was understanding of my move. If that were the case I wouldn't have resigned my 737 position in the UK and moved to the States. We are not hurting for money and my wife does very well. I am merely feeling the water out over here trying to get opinions as I have been in the UK for 12 years. Prior to that I am originally from Canada. |
Using a flow to get to a legacy is a different matter. Yes you could get to American without a degree in that case. Although in the time it will take you to flow up will be WAY longer then the time it takes to get some sort of online degree and hired at US Legacy.
You are very competive for US legacies now, but I'm sorry to say no 4 year is a huge hole. My friend worked in hiring at a US Legacy. He told me that those hired without 4 year were very limited and had extremely important connections. That said applying now does not hurt obviously. Have a look at Allegiant, JetBlue, and Spirit. I bet you get a call from one of them. All far better positions then the rubbish Norweign is throwing out. |
I'd like to echo the above. A buddy of mine also had a 2 year diploma and did the coursework for his 4 year degree online through ERAU. He had a call from a major within 45 days.
|
iaveight,
My comment regarding “putting food on the table” was empathy directed at someone I thought, wrongly, may have no other choice than to accept the rubbish OSM offer and Norwegian’s pilot rental, job security fear culture. However, given your condescending reply and statement; Bondi - regarding putting food on table, I think we all are hence why we work for a living. If you are asking whether I need the cash ASAP then NO, I am on full wack till the end of March, my company was understanding of my move. If that were the case I wouldn't have resigned my 737 position in the UK and moved to the States. We are not hurting for money and my wife does very well My “good luck” wishes are withdrawn. Furthermore, it is my hope that unionized US pilots do indeed produce a Norwegian booklet of names for future reference, should you or any others apply to a US airline in the future. Hopefully, your name will be at the top. |
touchy for no reason
I am merely stating fact nothing more or less, if it was empathy it didn't sound like it. Obviously I would query NAS as I have an EASA ATPL and again wanted peoples input. Not looking for empathy or sympathy just fact and what is going on in the USA.
Not quite sure why a degree is so important though. Go to Uni online take a bird course and that prepares me for life in a legacy carrier. If its to show commitment then I have completed EASA ATPL which is near enough a degree course and on top of that two years college in Canada for aviation management. Wont argue with the system here just don't understand the degree part. Thanks for the input Bondi g code and shed sd. I have a couple of interviews coming up one with a flow through that allows me to commute from my home. Money isn't what I was making in the UK but then again I am not taxed 43 percent on any of my wage and I moved here for a personal reason. Its nice to see many jobs floating around as it was slim pickings years ago. Europe is very busy still with many jobs there but tough to get work permit like it is in the States. |
The degree is just "one of those things." It's possible to get to a major through a flow program without one, but when 99% of your competition has one...well you get the point.
Some carriers will hire without one, but American, United, Delta, and Southwest generally won't. With FAA certs and a 2 year degree, it probably wouldn't take more than 12 months to complete as you will receive quite a few transfer credits. There are other carriers like Atlas and Spirit who pay pretty well who don't require one. Not sure about JetBlue. I'm not as militant with Bondi, because guys who go work at Norwegian aren't scabs, but I don't look at Norwegian favorably at all either. Welcome to the States and good luck! |
I would query NAS as I have an EASA ATPL and again wanted peoples input. I suggest you practice your response to the inevitable question from any US airline interview board, probably including a line captain, as to why, with an EASA license and living in Florida, you have not applied to OSM for Norwegian. Your response may determine your aviation career future. |
If I had that question in an interview, to be honest no preparation required, tell the truth. I have 3 ATPL which affords me a few companies to look at. Regarding OSM , in Europe and the Far East many use these companies for work, PARC is a huge one and a friend of mine is employed with a Japanese carrier through Parc . Difference is , awesome contract and completion bonuses. Unfortunately the commuting contract I wanted wasn't interested , they like young young guys with type ratings . Commuting would have been my first pick.
Its like you Bondi moving to Europe, many carriers , many options, many opinions. At the end of the day each of us has to do what is best for ourselves |
Thanks G Code, feel much more at home back in North America than in Europe. All the best !!!!
|
The problem is not NAS. Are unions and EU law that allows that type of employment.
|
Bonds
Originally Posted by Direct Bondi
(Post 9539758)
Norwegian’s FLL based pilots who will commute cannot participate in any US airline jumpseat program. Approvals require the employer to be an airline, not a third-party agency such as Orient Ship Management. Ongoing incompetence in managing crew resources may preclude the purchase of FLL commuting tickets on anything other than very short notice with associated high cost. Additionally, European pilot unions have not yet considered their response to the proposal allowing FAA licensed pilots to operate European registered and regulated aircraft for the stated period.
Eventually, the situation may improve. By recruiting US based pilots Kjos has invited a very large elephant into the room in the form of the 1926 Railway Labor Act, RLA. The invitation is surprising given the recent victory by US based NAI flight attendants in obtaining union recognition, representation and collective agreement rights directly with their “real employer”, Norwegian: http://cabinassociation.org/wp-conte...NMB-No.-35.pdf http://cabinassociation.org/wp-conte...ss-Release.pdf During the Norwegian Cabin Crew Association application to the National Mediation Board for union recognition, Norwegian and their collaborator in employment circumvention fought tooth and nail against the reality that Norwegian acts as the real employer: “Norwegian contends that OSM is the sole employer of the cabin crew and that neither NAR nor NAS exercises control over OSM. In addition, Norwegian contends that they lack the continuing authority to supervise and direct the manner in which the Cabin Crew members render their services”. However, the Agreement for Provision of Services of Aircraft Crew between OSM and Norwegian states: “OSM, in exchange for compensation, provides employees to perform work as part of the customers business under the customers control and management” The Railway Labor Act states: “The jurisdiction of the RLA extends to every common carrier by air engaged in interstate or foreign commerce and, every air pilot or other person who performs any work as an employee or subordinate official of such carrier or carriers, subject to its or their continuing authority to supervise and direct the manner of rendition of his services” Consequently, both Norwegian and OSM failed, abysmally, in their attempt to obstruct cabin crew being allowed to ballot for union representation as “employees” of Norwegian. The full report may be read at link: https://storage.googleapis.com/dakot...NMB-No.-21.pdf So, if you live in the FLL area and are prepared to forego labor rights and labor principles with your “real employer” and pay 30K for the privilege, until such time as your group follows the lead of the US based cabin crew to organize union representation, the smiling rock ape regime may be for you. |
Defending
Thanks for your input - not defending , just giving fact about how things work in Europe and Far East . A guy with 250 hours can start at a carrier in the U.K. On a 737 at 70 000 sterling - 35 days off immediately and have a bond . That bond is not paid unless you leave within 3 years . Now how much does American pay first year for a new hire ? It's all relative both with good points and bad points . Personally I like the US model much better than the European . Over there you can have second officers , first officers , senior first officers . You are incorrect though , many airlines in the Far East use recruiting agencies alone .
|
250hour f/o starting on £70k? You must be joking
|
Joking
Joking ? No when I was first employed by a certain carrier there in 2004 it's what I started at including salary flight pay pension brought it up over that amount.
I have a company contacting me currently starting salary is 69.8 |
That sort of pay is certainly far from the norm for that level of experience now in the UK
|
As I said I have a current contract sitting in my hands from an agency for a 737 job . I am assuming it's Royal Mail and it's starting at just over 70 k . So I have to disagree.
Sigma aviation 70k to start southern U.K. Base ! |
But you say above you started in 2004 so hardly a 250hour newbee. It is just :mad: that such salaries are available to low hours pilots in the UK or Europe.
|
It's funny how people always talk about this and that airline dragging down the standards. It's the people who accept those jobs that are dragging down the standards. These companies would not fly very much if people would refuse to take those jobs.
|
iaveight and Direct Bondi are correct in their analysis of the AFA/CWA drive to gain recognition of the NMB, National Mediation Board. The Board's finding that the contracting company was sufficiently close and exercised sufficient control over employee's so as to be indistinguishable from the carrier itself. NMB recognition triggers:
45 U.S. Code § 152 - General duties First. Duty of carriers and employees to settle disputes It shall be the duty of all carriers, their officers, agents, and employees to exert every reasonable effort to make and maintain agreements concerning rates of pay, rules, and working conditions, and to settle all disputes, whether arising out of the application of such agreements or otherwise, in order to avoid any interruption to commerce or to the operation of any carrier growing out of any dispute between the carrier and the employees thereof. This is a huge win for AFA. While it does not guarantee a contract it places Norwegian under the RLA, which at least makes them play by some rules. |
Update interview
Gentlemen please any news regarding interview for RCA?
What to expect? Thanks for help |
Despite great expectations, no 787's are based in FLL. Could it be because the airline is overstretched?
“On 8 December the Financial Times reported investor concerns over profitability and debt at Norwegian Air Shuttle” – Link: https://www.aviationanalytics.com/20...overstretched/ I’m no financial wizard and I don’t have a Spanish ATPL, but all those red and negative numbers are not good (Kool-Aid is no substitute for reality). |
Originally Posted by Direct Bondi
(Post 10079723)
Despite great expectations, no 787's are based in FLL. Could it be because the airline is overstretched?
“On 8 December the Financial Times reported investor concerns over profitability and debt at Norwegian Air Shuttle” – Link: https://www.aviationanalytics.com/20...overstretched/ I’m no financial wizard and I don’t have a Spanish ATPL, but all those red and negative numbers are not good (Kool-Aid is no substitute for reality). Something does not seem right here. Pilots are training to be based there but this certainly has the feeling of a position with not a lot of security for FLL based pilots. I could be wrong and have misread the situation but it does not give me that warm fuzzy feeling one should get with a position like this. |
No it’s not overstretched.
I’m not sure how 787 could be based at FLL as they are ever going to be N reg. |
Most people don't make job decisions based on assumptions, and I don't see any source that there was ever meant to be an aircraft based in FLL, maybe someone can prove me wrong?
Again I ask WHY an aircraft base would increase or decrease job security for those crew based there? |
Originally Posted by NEDude
(Post 9546032)
You will not be branded a "scab" in the U.S. The term "scab" in the States applies to to workers who cross union picket lines to work jobs that a union is striking against. It does not apply to people who are working for companies that are not experiencing union action (unless the company is providing workers to cover for another company's struck work such as when FalconAir was brought in to provide lift for Spirit when the Spirit pilots were on strike). It also does not apply to pilots who are working for less money that their counterparts. If the term "scab" applied to pilots who worked for less money and benefits than their counterparts, then ALPA and APA are guilty of creating "scabs" when they agreed to the B-scale wages of the 1980s. If someone refers to Norwegian pilots as "scabs" in the U.S. they are ignorant fools and not worth the time to worry about. Besides, beyond denying use of the jumpseat, which Norwegian pilots would not have access to, there is nothing an ALPA, APA, SWAPA or Teamsters pilot could do, so why would you care if one of them called you a "scab" out of ignorance?
|
Originally Posted by NEDude
(Post 9558079)
This was brought up in another forum -
Norwegian could be looking in to syphoning pilots from the many Miami area secondary cargo airlines such as Centurion, Amerijet, SkyLease, or Florida West. These airlines pay less than Norwegian for wide body cargo flying. The chance to do some "more prestigious" flying on brand new 787s for a bit more pay could be very tempting to those guys, especially if they already live in south Florida. |
Originally Posted by NEDude
(Post 9558079)
This was brought up in another forum -
Norwegian could be looking in to syphoning pilots from the many Miami area secondary cargo airlines such as Centurion, Amerijet, SkyLease, or Florida West. These airlines pay less than Norwegian for wide body cargo flying Training cost bond For pilots not current on B737 it will be a Non-Compete clause in the contract for the first three years. If you hold an FAA flight crew license, Norwegian will support conversion training to obtain an EASA license during a time of up to 2 years. During this period, you will operate under a waiver on European registered Aircraft. https://osmaviation.com/job/contract...s-b787-us-fll/ This from another job post: "If you hold an FAA flight crew license, Norwegian will support conversion training to obtain an EASA license during a time of up to 2 years. During this period, you will operate under a waiver on European registered aircraft." "For pilots not current on B787 or B777 there will be a training cost bond, being paid back or decreasing by 1/3 each year over three years..." |
Originally Posted by 4runner
(Post 10097762)
You will not be branded a scab. You’ll be the next lowest and people, including hiring boards will look at you like you’re scum of the earth. You’ll also be blacklisted, blocked on the radio and shunned by your fellow aviators for flying for a union, and contract busting operator. You’ll also have the honor of flying a Boeing for less than a CRJ pilot.
What a load of twaddle. “ blocked on the radio “. Are you a professional pilot or a school yard bully ? And , regional pilots get paid less in the US than a supermarket trolley collector here in the UK, so please explain who pays these massive CRJ salaries. |
Originally Posted by Meester proach
(Post 10098033)
What a load of twaddle. “ blocked on the radio “. Are you a professional pilot or a school yard bully ?
And , regional pilots get paid less in the US than a supermarket trolley collector here in the UK, so please explain who pays these massive CRJ salaries. |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 19:17. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.