Arline Employment Rumour
 

How true is it that employment is picking up in the UK? I see BA are advertising are there any others employing?

Thanks brown_eyes

Easy have a full page ad in Flight this week, including DEC's for Gatwick :eek:

Things must indeed be warming up, does not seem to stop my employer
continuing to treat us like endentured slaves though... :\

At least they look after your teeth, Leg (sorreee)

Word on the street, rumour of course, is a BA TRI went through the selection incognito and failed early on, reported to WW, now HR getting their arse kicked after cancelling flights due to lack of crew.

Again rumour, but Easy short of skippers, Flybe short, Monarch asking for right to return pilots to return. Good times for UK pilots...

running short of pilots ?
you hit a tree, thousands of them fall. :rolleyes:

You'll find monkeys and birds in trees!

Is there any difference :E

Probably not :hmm:

Monkeys and birds are fine. It's the snakes that you have to be on guard for.

Really? All I hear is max duties, temporary contracts, self employment, paying for ratings and eroding terms and conditions in general. Not sure how that is "good times".

CP

still crap in corporate

Not very good if you are over 50, no matter how much experience you have. I have 20 years and 10,000hrs, mostly on heavies and not a glimmer of interest from anyone.

I'm giving it six more months to find a UK based job and then I'm packing it in. Most industries outside of the aviation bubble value a bit of experience in life. Not so with the airlines, all they want is wannabees young and dumb enough to accept handing over the mortgage on their parent's house, no-one else need apply.

I'm beginning to think they are welcome to it.:ugh:

Arline Employment Rumour
 

I don't agree!
I am over 60 and found a job ok!
390

cleaning them doesnt count

There are certainly jobs but as Captain Prop pointed out, it's hardly good times. Many of the conditions of service are outrageously poor- paying for ratings, even paying for line training which is absolutely wrong from every angle. Unfortunately there's no shortage of lemmings ready to hand over their cheques.

390 cruise

One swallow a summer does not make. If you're a current experienced Captain on a useable type, perhaps a trainer, then I could foresee hope.

However, If you're one of the industry's dirty secrets who's suffered at the hands of redundancy despite extensive experience, which I believe Zedbb has (forgive me Zeddb. I gathered this from your previous post on the freight forum and am sure you don't need me to talk for you and I maybe making assumptions given I don't know you) then you'll find the aviation "industry" despite all it's posturing, tail feather waving - as if it were a gift from God himself rather than just a job - is no more immune from the dumping of older people who don't provide a financial incentive than any other industry.

The sooner people get out of their arrogant, out dated idea that piloting/flying/this club/what ever you want to call it is any different from being just another blue collar worker at a financial coal face the better. It's not about if you have the zen quality to float on a carpet or are the best ninja. It's finance. This trick they pull to make you go through selections in this day and age is a facade. If they valued good people that much, they'd look at all good people. What they take is the young, financially willing and lifestyle impressionable.

That, Cliff is a perfect summing up of the situation in fact it is such a good description of the attitude of the airlines towards the lot of older pilots made redundant that I'm going to steal it off you.

I don't expect much sympathy from the wannabees who probably think anyone in their 50's should roll over and die but I do wish someone would tell those fortunate few who got into a stable airline at age 24 and were trainers two years later that not everyone is quite so lucky and that redundant at 50-something does not mean "failed".

It's bad enough being on the scrapheap without some pompous arse telling you that you deserve it.

I'm afraid it's not just aviation. You'll find a lot of industries edging the 50 somethings at the top of their pay scales closer to the door and replacing them with younger grads on lower wages, reduced pensions and in general barely legal terms and conditions. I don't think pilot's have a right to bitch about the state of their industry any more than any other professional.

MOLGenius is correct. Sometimes I feel it's only me that can see the bigger picture of today's world. :ugh:

Believe it or not, there a bigger and more responsible professions out there who have studied A LOT longer than any of us did to be pilots and I assure you even with 5 years experience they are earning <30k.

We work in a cyclical industry which is a bit like a game of 'Musical Chairs'. The name of the game is to be on the strongest chair when the music stops, and that is the hard bit. A few years ago people were rushing to Monarch, only to see it come to the brink of ruin and deposit loads of good people on the street. That said, I believe most are back in the saddle somewhere or other and I hope they are doing well. The shortage of captains at places like easyJet and Ryanair is related to the difficulties of getting the sheer numbers required through the various training systems. DECs can be a help with that as they often require a couple less sim sessions than would otherwise be the case. There is not an infinite supply of qualified and capable A320 and B737NG captains roaming around looking for jobs, so from that point of view it is a good time to be looking to return to the UK from the desert etc. The downside is that not all those jobs are in parts of Europe everyone wants to work. It should also be said that there has always been an infinite supply of keen, young and inexperienced pilots who will sell their souls to get that first job. Given that situation, it should hardly come as a surprise to anyone in that First Officer pay scales are diabolical. Supply and demand is a great thing when you are the one in demand but when you are not it is a very hard world out there.

Times are currently very good. Relatively.

There has never been a recruitment shortage and never will. But there are a lot of airlines recruiting right now. If we're honest, recruitment is as good as it has been for many years. The T&Cs are not good, but give it ten years and they'll be seen as amazing.

The old guard have gone. Virgin has an uncertain future and too much of a history of large scale redundancies to be taken serious anymore. Monarch's enviable old T&Cs have been decimated. Thomas Cook want to get rid of their UK airline. Even at BA there are rumours of FOs on shorthaul regretting the move, allegedly.

Look to the new kings; easy are recruiting and are now arguably either the no2 or depending on your age and attitude about flying heavy metal, the no1 employer of choice. Ryanair have allegedly improved T&Cs, for new joiners at least. Look back to 2015 in 2025 and you'll think about the halcyon days.

Arline Employment Rumour
 

No rumour - Arline (RIP) was employed in Hollywood B Grade movies and IMO a very good actress.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ge-3-sized.jpg

Yes, a career can be made or lost on one good or bad switch of employers, and zeddb and I chose a stinker (I did try and warn him by pm). It has taken me five years to get back on track, with a command on a very popular type, (not that obsolete preserve of pensioners flying for beer and hookers). If you're well placed, then age is not a problem ... Get sidetracked onto a bad type with career gaps, and it can be a major problem).

Well it wound up in hindsight being a bad choice but in fairness it was a pretty happy ship right up to the time that BA kicked us in the nads and nobody saw that one coming.

You could equally have claimed that British Caledonian, Dan-Air, Orion, or even Virgin if you were on the wrong end of one of their redundancy panics were bad choices but many would disagree.

I was very happy at GSS and had every intention of staying until I hung my boots up and so were most of the others and that includes some of the BA guys.

Sad but ultimately true. It is a dinosaur but a nice one for all that. I'm well past the age where hookers are an attraction but the thought of another type rating plus two years learning the ins and outs of yet another aircraft is even less attractive although I guess going back onto a previous type would be less of a bother if I were ever given the chance. (Allows 5 minutes for laughter to die down).

And there you hit the nail on the head. Add in being past 50 and not a Captain due to redundancies, seniority and plain bad luck and those who had a command in their teens and who generally do the recruitment instantly write you off as a failure. I wish they would remember that it isn't contagious and not everyone is a lucky sky god with the knack of being in exactly the right place at the right time but we have to deal with the world as it is which in my case probably means behind the till at Aldi in the new year.

In the 8 years since my luck turned sour I have been up the road twice and as I mentioned in the paragraph above, that is in effect a death sentence. I have two popular types in my log book but as I am no longer current on either, they might as well not be there, especially with the cadet factories churning ready made pilots the way they do. However, well done you, its always nice when someone beats the system.

I've tried J2 for the 2nd time in two years but they generally ignore me. BA just sneered and told me to PFO without a chance of doing selection - twice - and that was when they are specifically looking for current 744 drivers, Norwegian seem only to be interested in ME returnees and/or trainers , the Far East/ ME is out due to age limits age and quite honestly no great desire on my part, and here in the UK, if you are not a current captain, you will only get looked at if you got a license within the last few months and are willing to be a revenue stream. So no on both counts.

There is a rumour of a new 744F outfit rising from the ashes of GSS but it is only a rumour although that would fit the bill very nicely. Outside of that I will have to start looking outside of aviation next year. Whilst that might cause wild cheering on the part of the wanabees and maybe the thought that I deserve it from certain other parties, it is of little comfort to me and I can only warn the lucky ones that they will be my age one day and possibly even in my position so think on. Whilst I would like to look 30 again, I wouldn't want to be 30 in this business.:\

obsolete preserve of pensioners flying for beer and hookers
 

That's description is terrible! I'm not yet a pensioner at all.

Ultimate put down of a rating. I may burn my licence from the shame

I've just returned from the US and the situation there as regards pilots jobs has started improving. Most of the airlines are recruiting, but the 2 big changes are that United and other big players have removed the requirement to hold a US passport. It's easy for them to get a work permit for a new pilot, but will cost an applicant about 9K usd in legal assistance and fees if they try it themselves.
Southwest airlines had a one third no show incident on a recent type rating course, which was caused mostly by some of the main biz jet operators either increasing pay or offering the applicants a command.

In UK terms because most commercial pilots work for BA, what they do is the big factor. I think that if the fuel price and the interest rates stay low the good times will return, as most HR departments will make every effort to prevent pilots leaving and that will involve more than just pay increases.

It's not difficult to get an FAA ATP as you don't need the 500hrs multi crew time, just the written exams (One week of online study should do the trick), CTP course of flight sim and groundschool which should be done before the writtens (Costs about 5K usd if you shop around) and the actual ATP flight test in a twin. You will need to get a letter of verification sent from the CAA to the FAA and an FAA medical (I did the initial FAA med in Stuttgart) and fingerprinting by the TSA etc.

I was based in the far East for 3 months once and I can assure you the pollution levels, illness rates and difficult driving conditions are no joke, but what the big Far and middle East airlines are doing is already having an effect.

The Germanwings investigation is also having an effect, partly because of increased medical failure rates, but also because there is a movement towards changing the current type rating training bonds legal basis to allow a pilot to resign without financial consequences (Tomatoe Andy was seriously in debt and could not afford to leave). Slavery is not good for your mental health!
Do not pay for a type ratings upfront or sign a bond, as it is now regarded as a sign of a serious mental health issue by many cheif pilots, the smaller US airlines will pay for the type rating and some are even paying for the CTP and ATP ratings.

Drifting off topic slightly, if you are suffering from too much stress and need some time off, just visit your local doctor and tell him you are feeling suicidal, it should get you a real good sick note. I did that once and it works real well, although the doc knew I was telling a porkie pie, as the real reason was the aircraft I was flying had a seriously defective engine (It kept overheating) that the ginger beers could not seem to fix. Luckily a US pilot bent it whilst I was off sick.

Yep the times they are a changin, as Bob Dylan once sang!

That comment from Clamchowder is very interesting, because the flight schools in the US are very busy and are having a hard time finding good instructors. They are already starting cash to join and annual bonus schemes.
I was a instructor at OATS for 5 years and I remember the CFO suddenly increasing the pay by one third for all instructors after a few left to join Brittania airways. That meant we made as much as a BA co-pilot!
Oddly enough one significant sign of a pilot shortage is what the flight schools do both in instructor pay and expansion terms.

If I was a lot younger and sitting on a pile of cash big enough to pay for a CPL/IR course and the extra time building for the ATPL, I would apply to all the airlines with cadetship schemes, BUT refuse to sign a contract involving a serious training bond. The reason for that is there is a risk that the major airlines will change their minds about just recruiting rich kids who can afford to work for peanuts (After deductions). Refusing to sign contracts sends a definite signal to the bean counters!

It's one big mistake to pay for training with an impending shortage of qualified pilots, because it won't be long before some airlines give up charging for type ratings in particular. Obviously agreeing to a P2F rip off would be silly at present.