Returning to Flying
 

Hi,
I need some advice on returning to flying after a six year break. In 2008 I was made redundant from XL Airways when they went into administration. At the time I was an SFO with 4500 hours on B737-300-800 with experience of schedule/Charter/Low cost and Freight.
After XL I took a job outside of Aviation and waited for recruitment to start again, by the time it did a few years later all jobs were asking for recent flying experience which I did not have. I kept applying but had no luck and as time went by my medical and licence expired. I applied for the new EASA licence and was horrified to find they had removed my B737 and instrument rating. To get them back would require a lot of training and expense and there lies the dilemma I have.
I really miss the job and would love to return and have considered paying to renew the medical and type rating but I would still encounter the same problem of recent flying experience. Also I feel my age could go against me, I am 51.
So I ask has anyone else of the same age been in my position and did you manage to get back? If so have you got any advice or tips?
Thanks in advance.

Thanks to Ruprecht Von Ruleriter, you will have an expensive nightmare getting your rating/ir back.

Sadly, i'd have to agree with Toto. The industry is not what it was back then.

I mean this is the nicest possible way, but if you have any other career option, stay as far away as you possibly can to this "profession".

If you need an insight into how bad things are read the Monarch/EasyJet threads.

Good Luck.

I had a very similar situation when Laker went bust in 1982. I was a SFO and the only flying jobs going at that time were for DEC or young FOs, and they were few and generally only in Middle East airlines. I got another job (in computing) quite quickly which I subsequently developed into a new career. My IR ran our after 5 years so about 6 months before that I wrote to the CAA to ask about options. They told me that I would have to do a complete new training course plus all the tests if I wanted to re-instate my license which was, of course, not a realistic option.

I therefore gave up and subsequently made the best of my second career, in which I have been modestly successful. Every now and then I get a chance to go up for a ride in a light aeroplane which I enjoy, but I know I would not enjoy current airline flying, for all the reasons that are aired regularly on Pprune.

As others have said - just make the best of what you now have. Good luck!

Exactly! You only live once! Why spend your whole life being tired, jet lagged, sitting in polluted (aerotoxic?) air, sitting in radiation, worry about the Flight Data monitoring office Nazis and having less and less quality time to see wife children friends and family?

Wanna fly? You want to really fly? Rent a Cessna 172 and leave the other 'flying' to the new generation of magenta line following button pushers willing to work for peanuts!

Unfortunately this easa thing is just a money making scam for training organisations ,the CAA and the government.There was no need AT ALL to change the JAR system...it's not like aeroplanes were falling out of the sky.Now after 3years you have to do a full type rating and fly the blinkin aeroplane round in circles for about 25K. It used to be a quick refresher course but hey 20% VAT to the government,training jobs and tax a bit more fees to the CAA,all adds up to increased GDP and growth.
Good luck if you want to get back into it but DON'T do an Airbus rating.

Yes indeed. The parallels between the financial industry and aviation are getting scary. In one way the government, i.e. the regulator, completely backs off and let's the industry 'regulate' itself (read: airline managers rewrite the rules any way it suits them) while on the other hand the normal person gets screwed and ends up footing the bill. Tick-tock-tick-tock-tick-tock...

The apathy of most colleagues is what scares me the most. People who are supposedly paid to think about "safety" and "situational awareness" turn out to be the kind of gullible and obedient sheep that most totalitarian regimes could only dream about. :yuk:

Do yourself a favour, stay away from professional/airline flying, let the low-cost and Middle Eastern airlines continue their race to the bottom, keep your sanity and health, and enjoy life!

If you miss the flying why not look at a turboprop operator rather than a jet operator, the lifestyle is probably better although the renumeration is not.

as others have said it's not the same as is was and unless you want to "prostitute" ourself by paying for type ratings and being paid peanuts I would say steer well clear, you will be competing with people half our age with the bank of mum and dad behind them.

You do not have to redo the rating, you need to get in touch with the training organisations and the HOT will decide on the retraining requirements. There is however an issue if yOur IR has expired by more than 7 years.

You could get some ratings back and try to get in from the bottom again if you wanted to fly or there are ground instructor type jobs around. You could consider an SFI certificate, you don't need a licence but would require an LPC on type.

Depends how much you want to fly?

Jaydubya
Nick 14 is correct I believe you can renew if not lapsed by 7 years.
I was out of the industry for 3 years and returned aged 52.
Feel free to PM

Regards

40 years old, 2000 TT mostly on jet, just Airbus rated.

Out of airline in 2005, never ever had the chance to be in again.

just 2 my cents, enjoy your "new" life and fly just for pleasure.

all the best

You can renew your IR without having to rewrite the exams again provided that your IR has not lapsed by seven years. It used to be five years but that has changed relatively recently.
How do I know this? Because that is exactly what I have just done. My IR would have lapsed by seven years this month. I renewed it in August. My Class 1 medical was tricky and I had to do more or less the whole lot at the Beehive. But then you actually only need a Class 2 if all that you want is PP privileges with an IR.
In my case I shall probably never fly commercially again but I renewed my ATPL for one of those indefinable reasons that afflict mankind from time to time and are probably born of lust or over inflated ego. At least I could fly to the south of France IFR in a Baron............or someone might be sufficiently moved by my story of heroism as to give me a job in flight ops telling pilots how we did things in the old days!
PM by all means if I can help with further information on vainglorious acts of bravado and misplaced heroism.

When you have followed the advice above, re IR and licence etc. and have established just what the cost to you will be, I'm wondering if it would be worth you throwing yourself at the feet of either Ryan Air or another B737 operator, for example? You then need to see if they will lend you the money in return for a bonded period during which you will repay the loan and accrue a fair number of recent hours. It will all depend on supply and demand and what value they place on your previous experience, whatever happens you are going to start at the bottom again. Don't be put off by junior FOs trying to talk you out of it, your experience scares them! :ok:

I think that's excellent advice from Parabellum.
You'd be a candidate for what used to be called fast track command, six months in the right and then across? I think it's true to say that you've got to put up the IR and twin skills training (at an ATO?) and test yourself. Then you'd apply as a skilled newbie looking for a bond. Market timing is the thing and no one can usually second guess that. Time of year might be important though. Your new IR would be valid for a year so you'd want it fresh on your licence about two months before traditional hiring period so as to get a new CV out and about.
You do have a little flexibility on when you would renew because it sounds as though you've still got a year of lapsation (?) left.
Oh yes J, I'm seventeen years older than you. You've got youth on your side!

I will shortly be in a similar position. 55 yrs old, nearly 10000hrs mostly in heavies, made redundant and just finishing a short term contract.

I have been banging my head against the wall for the last 9 months looking for another permanent job and all I have had is rejection after rejection. Just about every UK airline only wants 14 year olds with no experience, BA turned me down flat for the 744 despite fitting the profile almost to the letter, ditto FR as they want Captains or cadets only and at 55 I am too old for the ME and China, not that I particularly want to go there.

I would love to jack in long haul and return to turboprops, I could afford the pay cut and used to fly them years ago but the normal reaction is either to be totally ignored (Flybe) or a total disbelief that anyone would want to swap a 747 for something smaller , as if it makes any difference. I would happily swap my RHS for a Q400 or Jetstream, unfortunately no one takes you seriously when you are over 50, in the RHS or express a desire to "downsize".

Most recruiters seem to have had continuous careers, have never been redundant and give the impression that they achieved command whilst still at school. When confronted with someone older who has not done the same they seem to immediately assume that you have screwed up somewhere and the cv goes straight into the trash folder.

Like you, I am looking at something in IT, not because I want to stop flying, I don't, but because I have to keep working as multiple redundancies shredded my pension savings. I would suggest that you either burn your logbook and pretend to be a cadet again although despite the law, there is most certainly age discrimination practised in this industry, or carry on in IT and fly for fun after work. The real problem is that once in your 50's it is difficult to get a job doing anything, you are assumed to be senile and to have no aspirations higher than a supermarket checkout or an orange apron at B&Q.

Flying is a great job but the industry is utterly vile, full of overinflated egos promoted beyond their wildest dreams due to seniority and arrogant teenagers who would sell their parents for a chance to appear on facebook in a pilots uniform.The union is bloody useless having failed to even slow down the race to the bottom and exists soley to protect BA pilots and sell financial services. It will be hard to stop, I'm sure it was hard for you, but if you are successful in something else, I would caution against rejoining this snakepit. It really isn't worth it unless you are born lucky.

All the very best of luck,whatever you decide.

Jaydubya,

to give you a perspective from here...
Im in asia, in my thirties, and prepared to get out of it.
I have been flying in LCC and now they make copilots to pay (paytofly) whereas it did not even existed in the company before.

As some said, it's really a race to the bottom.
Im not even 50 that I left. I mostly left because I never had a degree and now I learn my own business and some online studies. I learn a real job (never made notes before, calculations, etc).
When I see what's happening now, I really have no doubt that in 5 years or so, it will a lot worse. F/O will pay directly to become captain.
in the near futur, F/O will be student and captain the only pilot paid for the job. I'm 100% about that. We can see some block hours sold (about 1000h). Be prepared for 1500h at eagle jet , and you will get your ATPL. Scary.

Sure you may miss the job its normal. We can not forget our past.
But be aware that you would chose between the heart and the brain.

The heart tells you to come back flying. The brain will tell you to stay where it's more healthty and safer.

You can try to come back, but you will have difficulties. All young pilots I see in my ex airline, they are cadets. Even younger than me.

I have ±8500 hours, and a wide range of experience, from turbo prop to short haul 737 and A320 to roughly 3000 hours on a 747.

My advice: don't listen to Aussies, they're the biggest selfish off-day-selling :mad: you'll find in this industry.:= Emirates, Cathay, Ryan, Easy, they're full of them! Just ask around and you'll quickly find out how popular they are... :yuk:Right, and you have any idea why he will be an ideal candidate for a "fast track?" That's because all the other "candidates" who have 3-4000 hours have left in the illusion that Emirates will be better than that :mad: low cost airline that they left behind. The Middle East is full of former Ryanair and easyJet pilots who were desperate to escape the 900 hours/year fatigue nightmare. They'll be disappointed of course, but they don't know that yet. These short term fools think that a bigger jet + a bit of kitsch & glamour = better lifestyle. :E

As Zeddb has said, it's a total illusion that experience counts. The only reason why they would want a few thousand hours is because airlines need suckers to put in the LHS for when it goes wrong.

zeddbe : you are spot on !

The Boys from Down Under? Any single one of them who wants to fly in any other country has a right to do so but any pilot who wants to come to Ozzie and fly is a vile :mad:. A nice bunch of well adjusted trades unionists as opposed to the bitter and quite correctly twisted cynics one so often finds among the ranks of commercial transport methodology activists elsewhere on the globe.

Possibly true, not sure, I'm British myself, did all my professional flying employment for non-Australian companies, outside Australia, just came here to retire. Don't think you will find anything in my posts that is particularly 'protectionist' of Australia or Australian jobs.

Jaydubja, you will have noticed posts on here by people who are secure in their airline employment yet are obviously now bored, well, tough tit, they made a bad choice. The suggestion you look at the corporate world is a good one, you don't have to spend the rest of your life there, but avoiding the poisoned minds of people like Bokkenrijder is essential and the corporate world may be the answer!;)

So how relevant is your opinion on today's reality? :oh:

Enjoy your retirement! I sincerely hope you've enjoyed the true glory days of aviation and that you have an ample and well deserved pension.

Unfortunately the rise of the LCCs will make this nearly impossible for today's generation of pilots. Where Sir Freddie Laker failed with his Skytrain, nowadays Norwegian, Air Berlin, Air Asia, Scoot and Jetstar are successful. It's great for the traveling public, but a horror for any long haul pilot. Life for the short haul pilot is not much better, because the only jobs are in the LCCs.

The same is more or less true for the Middle Eastern carriers, who are disguised low cost airlines when you look at their overall costs, aided by cheap immigrant workers, no unions and errr 'flexible' labour laws (just read the topics about poor the pay is compared to inflation and cost of living in DXB, DOH and AUH), yet with a premium product so employees easily confuse them with legacy European carriers.

Sorry old man, I know that it was not all fun and roses during the 70's and 80's, but with the EU deregulation, Open Skies, the EASA FTL's, the Middle Eastern carriers and the EU LCCs hammering away at the T&C's it's a totally new and different game now.

Unfortunately it seems you're stuck in the past and you think that you can just 'copy paste' the past into the future with all it's ups and downs. You can't...Everyone who is honest and realistic has to admit T&C's are on a seriously downward slope, it has nothing to do with sour grapes, frustration or a poisoned mind.

Again, JW, if you really enjoy flying then stick to general aviation and a PPL/IR/ME! :)

I do agree with Bokkenrijder.

Never ever listen to old people, I did a few years ago and I did a mistake.

Actually even pilots in their forties , they are out of the game.

I am in my thirties, and when I started my CPL IR, I was about 20 y/o.

At that time, older pilots told me : it's not easy but just go to Africa with your backpack and see the companies to find a job etc. Or just do insutrction, towing gliders etc.

Their advices were already old. Just because they did that, then they give these old advices who do not work anymore.
Airlines do not care about your experience in africa, as FI or else, or on any single engine.

Some people will say "all people think it was better before".

But, nowadays, we have just seen , Air France on strike, Lufthansa on strike...which had never happened in the 70 as far as I know.

My advice : don't listen to old pilots, the worst is to listen to the retired pilots (who did not fight for us by the way). I have nothing against them, they are just out of the game from a long time.

Listen to pilots in their 30 or so, who live the reality today and are enough mature and aware of what is happening in the industry.

Well, yes and no.

Actually they are in the very middle of the game, but usually they suffer from a severe case of "normalcy bias" (wiki here), are heavily in debt (house, car) and have large commitments (wife, kids, debt) which makes them not want to accept reality.

Their way of dealing with it is by sticking their heads in the sand and hoping that the problem will go away by itself, hoping that the deflationary spiral in T&C's will somehow not affect them, hoping that the economy will magically improve and hoping that companies will automatically give employees good T&C without having to fight for it. Unfortunately hope is never a good strategy...

p.s. I would not go so far as to say "never listen to old people." There is a lot of timeless knowledge that we can learn from, as some things like airmanship and the laws of aerodynamics will never change. Unfortunately when it comes to very fluid things like the economy, international treaties, government regulations (FTL's) these 'wisdoms' can quickly become obsolete traps. What worked for one generation will perhaps not work for the next generation.

You're right :)
I was just talking about in term of advices about things around the job and mostly about how to become a pilot.

I have some retired friends, they were captain etc...but they do not have a clue what is "pay to fly" things. They do not have a clue about the MPL licence.
They do not have a clue about the 25 minutes turn around.
But I agree that we learn a lot when it's about the job itself. Yes for sure ! When I have a question I do not ask a cadet :p

Hi everyone,
Many thanks for the comments, although I have been out of Aviation for 6 years I have kept an eye on the industry and am aware that it has changed and not for the better. Having tried to get alternative employment in many different industries in the past few years I can assure you all that degradation in T and C's is not just confined to Aviation. In fact I am shocked at the huge rise in minimum wage/casual and zero hour/ temporary contracts. I have also done some pretty :mad: jobs for large public companies that have had total disrespect for people. This is why I am starting to miss flying because it must surely be better than what I am doing at the moment.
However my concern is the fact I am 51 and not flown for 6 years. Although I am confident I have the skills and experience to get back to where I was it could take a little longer and would require an understanding and patient employer. I don't think I would find such an employer nowadays and so I think it would be best to forget the Airlines and maybe concentrate on GA or corporate.
I think maybe I will renew my Instrument rating before the 7 year limit and then explore different forms of flying away from the Airlines.

The corporate seems the best option IMO.
I dont know this field, but what I can see from others friends, in the corporate world, the employers are more interested in mature experienced pilots than a young kid.

Keep us posted ! and wish you the best ! :)

Good luck Jaydubya...dispite the negative comments it's always been the same...
I had it hard then easy.....but it's often how much you are prepared to put into it.
Chatted to a FR skipper who as taking home the same as me when I was his age....but having double the time off...I was Rhs DC10.. Legacy...
He did one of those smooth descents followed by a landing which seems to be old school ....lift dumpers lowering the aircraft onto the Tarmac...and he didn't need to stand on the brakes....
Although some forms of private aviation are more demanding you can't beat being paid for something you enjoy doing.

hum.... don't agree.
If majors cut the T and C it is because of the LCC. The Majors have to lower their conditions to be in competition against the LCC.
It was exactly what Air France recently explained...
It is not normal to pay a flight less expensive than the cab.

Jaydubya,

I remember Bokkenrijder in Easyjet. Definitely a half glass empty chap, take from that what you will.......

I still enjoy the life, it's not perfect but theN what is? I have something to compare it with too as I have worked in other industries and I think we have it pretty good.

Best of luck with whatever happens.

Funny how the happy guys in LCCs like to insult the guys who see the wood for the trees. Those people in LCCs who are content are, in my experience, either new, naive or of weak mentality and pathetically grateful for every crumb thrown their way. It is the last of these three types that play lackey to the management and undermine the rest of the pilots, and are the line pilots most complicit in the slide in conditions.

I think Bokken has said his piece in a very reasonable manner. This is not the industry it was ten years ago, let alone 20 or 30. If you have an alternative method of earning a comparable amount (and do check the latest figures - FR skippers now on a basic of £30-odd K - trainee train drivers earn more), then keep it and just fly for fun on your weekends.

Aluminium shuffler, I assume you are referring to me. Naive, new and mentally weak. You've nailed me, got me spot on.

Anyway I merely pointed out my experience of Bokkenrijder, he on the other hand insulted a whole nation...

Hugs and kisses from a reasonably happy LCC driver.

Edited to add I can see the wood from the trees, hence my contentment. I would suggest you check out the global economy and then perhaps you too will see the wood from the trees.

The global economy is bad, but nowhere near bad enough to reduce salaries in LCCs to 1/3 of where they should be, to justify sending folk to bases at the other end of a continent when slots are available in or near where people ant to be, to be scaling back on already thin engineering, to be skimping on basic training, to be operating P2F schemes and operating with intimidating cultures. So, if you say you are happy in such companies, then yes, you are naive or weak.

As for insulting Aussies, I flew with some really great lads from Oz, but a fair few of them were incredibly arrogant, banging on again and again about the South China Seas and openly stating that only Aussie licences were worth the paper they're printed on. A lot of them had a very big chip on their shoulder about the 80's strikes and British pilots in particular, even towards those who started flying in the late 90s and early 2000s, and it was three Aussies who sold out all the FOs in Ezy a few years back. So, are all Aussies bad? Of course not. But some of them, just like any nationality or group, are due criticism, given how keen they are to slag others. I agree you can't judge a person by their nationality, and that slagging a whole country is not right, but Bok was right in everything he said.

Aluminium Shuffler I don't know where you get your info from. You can't be LCC or the company I work for. The salary you quote sounds ludicrous. The LCC aren't badly paid compared to the legacy cariers; I'd put my salary and T&C up against BS SH anyday. It's just what you want out of the company. I'd be happy to work for BA but then I haven't applied as I'm happy where I am.

And as for blaming 3 Aussies for selling all the ezy FO's out a few years back, well you're talking out of the back of your head.

By the way I think I work for the same outfit as Phensocks and I'm not naive, new or mentally weak either. Hugs and Kisses to you to Phensocks. That makes two happy LCC drivers.

I agree the EU LCC capain salary of Eu45k/£35k is ridiculous, but it's quite correct. That is the reality of what LCCs are doing. As for the sell out - I was there when it happened, and three guys who had been co-opted onto the BALPA CC because they had the management worried because they had the membership's ear with a lot of good ideas and tough talk suddenly became pussycats when they became the heads of the council. They pushed through a deal that lost all the FOs a lot of flight pay and all of their loyalty bonus, a combined £14k gross for 5-yr FOs, and two weeks leave, without a ballot, and were suddenly promoted to TRE and then all TREs got a 25% rise. Hmm...

Jaydubya - check PMs.

Please do not see Corporate as a poor mans alternative to airline flying. With no Corporate experience and being out of aviation for 6 years you will also have a very tough time convincing someone to take you on. It is all about being current, with hours on type if you want to walk into a job.

Having also flown in OZ with Ozzies I can just thank my lucky stars that that is an experience I would not wish to repeat. :yuk:

true but I would add that in corporate world it's mostly who you know than what you know. Most of friends I know, get into this world by knowing the right person. As it's a smaller world, you'd better hire someone in who you trust and know.
about the skills...it always come with time as long as you're standard.

This industry has changed, permanently, from the good ol days of the 70's-80's.
For better or worse, we as pilots have to accept that. As an old boss said to me, there is the door. We fly because we love flying. I agree the money is/was good and useful, but I have flown some junkers in the Dark Continent, just for the fun of flying.
This is what the bean counters have woken up to. We will fly, because we love flying. They will abuse that love as much as they can. No one willingly spends the '000's of £ on a career they hate! Unless you are a 20 something with the bank of M&D, it is very hard to (re)-enter the industry.

Some have mentioned the corporate world. Bloody good fun, but you have to think outside the airline mentality, as once the wheels are up, you can generally be on your own until returning to base.
I have done the airline thing. It was ****. Decreasing T&C's, more pressure from mgt to save 2 kgs of fuel per sector, faster turn around's, lack of family life..........the list goes on.
I now fly turbo props. Happy as a pig in poo.
It is, but they accepted it!
I earn more than the higher figure.
For flying a turbo prop with 10 seats.
The reason is that I had 2000 hrs experience operating all over the world in similar aircraft. That was what the company wanted. We require 1000 hrs min for captain, however the amount of babies, with wet licenses, who cant read adverts, that apply is staggering.
We find co-pilots on the recommendation's of our Captains, Friends, word of mouth etc

If a CV from a 747 Captain came across my desk, there is a very good chance I would call him for a chat.
If a CV from a OAT/CTC baby came across my desk, it would keep going to the round filing box (bin)

Until EASA land has a FAA change of requirements (1500 hrs etc), the industry will stay as it is. And that took total hull loss and A SINGLE govt to get it changed.
Anyway, must go, Canary Islands for the week end, toodle-pip!
:cool: