WhyByFlier, FR offer the same too, with added nostalgia. They are also much more equal opportunity employers than EZY - modular, experienced FI, integrated, experienced GA. All are welcome (if they can pay for the TR). The downsides of FR are much-rehearsed and I would say much worse than EZY, but the flying and opportunities they offer are similar.

If you are talking simple price, it is possible to get a job at FR for half the money of EZY If you choose to go modular, but that's an argument for the wannabes forum.

How is this true? There are so many already-qualified people looking for jobs that EZY could offer them a relatively poorly paid position as an FO and the vast majority of them would take it. Little training costs; little recruitment/selection costs; low salaries. This would be my definition of "cheapest" pilots, but it's not what EZY are doing. So I disagree that it's entirely about finding the cheapest pilots. If you look at it purely objectively and try to work out the strategy behind the current recruitment situation at EZY then you'll quickly see that cost is only one aspect of it.

Flying is Flying! It can and does get pretty dull! I can't stand anything over 2.5 hours! Why would I swap eJ for BA when I could get command in 4-5 years and live in one of nearly 30 bases around europe? Money wise it takes quite a while for BA to catch up, and I live at home and not in a hotel? Flying pays me a salary to let me go skiing and have a relatively comfortable lifestyle where and with who I choose. If my goal were ultimately to sit in the cruise for hours at a time and spend nights in hotels with guys I'v just met then BA would be an option. But its not. I fly to live… not live to fly!

From what I hear , easyJet offer a good competitive package , in fact I would say a contract a lot of others would envy combined with the elusive stability all in our industry crave.

As highlighted by others , we all now just fly from one tarmac strip to another whichever colour scheme you have on the tail attempting to prevent the company take on the new EASa FTL.


The money here isn't the problem for those in the industry , the problem for us is the never ending production line out of CTC and the like , creating an ever bulging pilot work force fighting for the decreasing scraps of contracts available to ever more aware airlines .


There will never be another pilot shortage in the UK & I fear all these gullible youngsters are being sold a lie . As they make ever increasing sacrifices to progress & accept the next offer the company makes for promotion with no increase in terms.


This is all without the near ready development of CPDLC , the aircraft will very soon be controlled from the ground , the accept button being a mere polite requirement until legislation allows full control & the pilots will just be monitors .

I think the theory behind the MPL is that EZY are gambling on the fact that other employers will be reluctant to take on "MPL" trained pilots. This leaves EZY with a captive workforce unable to move on after a few years if they choose.

I thought this was interesting
 

7 years of MPL – 7 things learnt
10 January 2014 - 1:34pm
The end of 2013 marked a milestone for the Multi-crew Pilot Licence (MPL), which had been introduced by ICAO as an alternative ab-initio airline pilot training program with a multi-crew focus. When MPL was launched in 2006 amid great scepticism within the pilot community, ICAO made a commitment to review the concept and assess the global status of MPL implementation. Based on a thorough assessment ECA identified 7 things about MPL learnt in the past 7 years.

1. The MPL programs allow a good level of understanding of pilot’s performance because they enable a better detection of possible competences that need reinforcing. When MPL syllabi are flexible to address individual competence drifts and problems this is thanks to the detailed selection of the candidates and the continuous assessment of the competences build up through training monitoring and oversight.

2. MPL syllabi contain various deficiencies. MPL minimum requirements introduce a drastic reduction of real aircraft time, reduction of real solo flight hours and a strong increase of simulated flight hours. The currently approved MPL syllabi meet the minimum requirement of 12 real landings and even less in some cases. Some currently approved MPL syllabi do not include real Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) flights or asymmetric flying in real aircraft. What is more, there is no relevant Air Traffic Control (ATC) simulated environment available to date, which makes the ATC interaction training questionable. And not least, MPL syllabi introduce a global training timescale reduction, including little to no consolidation time (i.e. time to allow for reinforcing the just acquired skills).

3. MPL is a pure co-pilot licence. Training programs of most airlines in the past have selected and trained their candidates towards captaincy. Contrary to that, current MPL programs do not reflect the natural career path of an airline pilot, nor do they provide the necessary tools for an evolution towards it. There is no route plan for MPL pilots to prepare them for the left seat in the cockpit. There is also no proof of capability for a MPL licence holder to upgrade to captaincy and so far no MPL trainee has graduated to Captain.

4. MPL training schemes exacerbate existing training program deficiencies. With less flying time in the aircraft, very limited solo flight time, and less exposure to the real environment MPL training schemes only amplify existing shortcomings in today’s pilot training programs. Improving airmanship, basic flying skills and Crew Resource Management (CRM) skills of its candidate pilots is even more crucial when looking at the reduced MPL training programs.

5. Primarily cost-driven. The MPL syllabus design is primarily cost-driven, with a significant reduction of training time. Tying the MPL licence more closely to commercial needs of airlines – i.e. training more pilots faster – rather than empowering MPL pilots as an independent safety professional is a potentially dangerous practice.

6. MPL schemes bind pilots to one airline. MPL schemes are by definition tailored to specific airlines. Hence, an MPL qualified pilot is likely to face serious career restrictions when (s)he leaves the company or in case of any unpredicted developments at company level, such as bankruptcy or employment halt. Flying with another airline with an MPL licence would always require additional training and qualifications.

7. There is only limited data and feedback on the MPL pilots’ performance due to the limited number of MPL licence holders. Over the past years, MPL programmes have been running across the globe. But recent numbers indicate that by September 2012, there were 1.900 enrolments and only 600 MPL licence holders. This inevitably also affects the quality of data and feedback on the performance of MPL pilots.

In a nutshell, after seven years MPL is growing out of its infancy stage and is quickly becoming a shortcut to the cockpit at a lower price for the airline. Considering the many deficiencies, the potential safety implications and the precipitance with which MPL is being implemented by industry, it is crucial to remedy its deficiencies and to stick to a careful, gradual and precautionary implementation. Otherwise, we can easily fall in the trap of producing pilots who only function within standard operating procedures and when the skies are gentle but do not possess what is really needed to ensure safe operations: airmanship.

Also, is it really that much cheaper than the traditional routes? ;)

Did anybody naively expect otherwise?

Back in my day we had the Cadets (mainly BA), Mil, the Self-Sponsored also on the Integrated (the well off) and the rest of us, BCPL/Self-Improvers. None of us had an easy ride (even the BA folk) back then.

Now everything is dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. Where the heck we would be without glass... a scary thought.

Oh crikey

'Where would we be without glass...'

The aircraft would be falling out of the skies without gods of the sky like you to look after us.

Geez....:ugh:

4468, knowing the retention rate is outside my job description, pay scale and interest. From all the people I know - many have gone to Virgin, Emirates, Qatar, BA, Mon, Aer Lingus and some to Air NZ, JetStar, Tiger and Air Tanker. There's a healthy churn - some people 'think' they want long haul, some want more time off, some are suggestible and brain washed - they're tired, unhealthy, commuting, have a poor 'life' or are being affected by those that are. I can say that without offending as I have been all of those :sad:

I did 2 sectors with a great crew - flying with the captain was like spending a day with a mate. And then finished off with a raw data, man thrust visual - losing 10000 feet in 18 miles - enjoyable, fulfilling, satisfying, exhilarating flying - just why I dreamed of doing this job. And that's why Easyjet, as a job, is great. I'm very sure BA, as a way of life, is great too......for now......on LH......if you have sufficient seniority.

I feel good about being able to do this as a career but intend to diversify my earning potential so I can 'reduce' and not be dependent on such a turbulent industry - I love the job, not massively in love with the industry. I always feel for the 50/60 year olds at the times I reported this morn. As I'm sure you do on a 777/747/A380 going to the Caribbean or wherever it is you most like. Getting up at 0300, lugging a flight bag, in a polyester uniform, being active and trying to assimilate vital info at that time isn't a pleasure regardless. Making out that it's EasyJet specific or a LoCo thing is nonsense - it's an industry condition.

Jwscud, Ryanair is a fair, legitimate career. They don't over promise and thus don't underdeliver. You know what you're signing up for. It would be extremely low down on my choice list but I'm not knocking it.

WhyByFlier

I'm genuinely impressed. Honestly!:D

What you have just described; manual thrust, raw data, manual flying is pretty much the bedrock of what I enjoy most these days! Bravo to you. If that's what you enjoy, then you will never be bored in this job. You've made the right choice, and the travelling public are fortunate to have you aboard! Never lose that!

Of course I don't do quite as much as you these days, but I still love it. Having flown in most environments and types over almost forty years, I flatter myself by thinking there is pretty much nothing I haven't had a go at in an aircraft! Believe it or not though, there does come a day when enough fun is enough. You are right that the negatives of the job take the edge off the enjoyment. I'll be out fairly soon, and will get just as much fun pootling between barbecues at grass strips, and air shows. Can't wait!

Many coming into this business will never know, nor appreciate that joy. They choose this for different reasons! More fool them!

Edited to add:
We normally report for the Caribbean mid to late morning. (Perfect for a 50/60 year old!) Which means we are at the beach/pool bar for sundowners! Of course I'm normally a little sunburned by the third or fourth day! These jobs all come with risks, eh!

join the wannabe line of kids, get a loan and go play with our FMGC! We have bought cakies for you! (sorry, candles are fake!)

Smokie,

Got a link to the article?

https://www.eurocockpit.be/stories/2...-things-learnt

:ok:

Don't forget Male and Mauritius, slightly later in the afternoon. Nice flights out, three crew (mostly) and a nice visual approach at the other end around a lovely sun drenched island to a manual landing. Some lovely Indian destinations (outside of monsoon!), South America and Central America!

Always remember, the choice is yours in BA bid for what you want. The guys on blindlines are picking up excellent trips as there is so much choice that there is enough to fill almost everyone's expectations. (on my fleet)

This job is a hard or a easy as you want to make it.

4468, I'll see you at the grass strip barbecues in the summer I guess! :ok:

Call me thick but I haven't a clue what your bitter post is saying. I have 4500 hours flying the A320 - I'm far from a wannabe or in a line.

4468, you raise a good point. In my experience there are 4 main reasons why people become a pilot:

1. For the raw love of flying planes.
2. To travel.
3. For the status.
4. For the perception that pilots are loaded.

I became a pilot solely for point 1 and thus I'm very happy with the job, easyJet (who offer fantastic flying) and the prospect of doing this as my career until retirement. You can never be perfect in this game, there's immediate feedback as to your performance and the work IS meaningful. People who chose it for 2 become VERY frustrated in an airline like easyJet and usually allow their thoughts to get them into a position of divorce, few friends and a middle eastern owned villa:p. People in 3 and 4 are suffered daily, have little interest in the practicality, responsibility or flexibility the job requires. They end out with terrible names and being the subject of cockpit FM in the regional bases!

Ultimately your role and career in BA sound fantastic and it's excellent for you that you've enjoyed it so much. Hopefully BA can continue to offer that career to many more for a long time to come.

As for whether someone chooses to spend 109K on training with EZY or 94K with BA - well, that's there choice. And it's what makes this world go economically around. Thinking that you should control them or tell them what they can or can't do, just because it's 'unfair' on you is madness. Just as some people are born beautiful and can model for millions of pounds a year, and some are born with the 'x factor' and can get away with being a revolting plank whilst earning millions a year - some are born with generous parents, a wealthy background, the perseverance to carry on, keep trying and find a way and some are not. We all make our choices and need to accept that we live with the consequences. It is for us to invest in ourselves, not anyone else first. The majority who are expecting airlines, banks and the evil FTOs to cheapen prices are the least willing to back themselves and invest in their future - I wonder why. It's in the same vein as the benefits culture. I've seen too many people with nothing achieve everything to have sympathy with those that don't. And being an airline pilot, doctor, lawyer, genius, beautiful, good at football or able to sing is no one's right - it takes preparation, dedication, a large amount of risk taking, genetics and opportunity to come together! It doesn't take some lefty, social engineering, unnatural 'I know what's best for everyone' approach that people like Nick Clegg try to impose.

The irony is that not that much has changed.

Many moons ago the 'cadets' didn't have to pay anything for their training and type rating. However, generally, they were employed on a 'sub' pay scale for, I believe, 5 years prior to joining the standard airline pay scale.

IIRC that was standard at the time for new entrants who weren't from the military or another airline. This pay differential was substantial and more than covered the airlines commit to training costs. The only difference being that the 'loan' wasn't taxed and the airline saved on National Insurance contributions over the period of the sub category pay.

It seems that the cost is now borne, up front, by the applicant which is a shame as the financial filtering system probably blocks many good applicants whilst permitting those privileged/indebted few through. Also the tax burden of repaying the loan is putting money in the chancellors pocket as the loan must be re-payed from taxed income AFAIK.

It's a sorry state of affairs that, with a little thought and a dig through corporate tax rules, could be changed to the benefit of the applicant and the company.

This will never happen whilst CTC and Oxford sit as middlemen IMHO. :{

WhyByFlier - I am also in your category 1. I'm not really sure the MPL is the route for anyone in that category. You don't get anywhere near the joy of doing a PPL, gong out and about on your own, getting stuck into some fly-ins, grass strips, maybe some time in the states before heading for your CPL, then hopefully ringing some of the guys and girls you met along the way in your job search. Plenty of people I know have never gone near the wannabes forum on here and got jobs that way.

The real problem is instructing is an exceptionally difficult way to pay the bills, and all the light twin charter stuff that the generation before me did has disappeared into the ether. Couple the lack of an obvious self-improver route and a big marketing push by OAA/CTC - you can barely pick up Flyer or Pilot without seeing full page glossy adverts - a lot of young guys are convinced it's the only route available.

Wirbelsturm

They are still on sub pay scales

WBF - excellent post at 10.58 Spot on. No point in moaning about the rules. Love them or hate them they are the rules of the game. Life can and will deal kicks in the teeth. It is how you deal with them that counts. My Dad, long dead now, was a BA TRE. He lost his licence in the aftermath of the Staines Trident crash when heart exams were toughened up. He came from the crap end of Glasgow, flew fighters in the war and then went through Scottish Airways to BEA then BA. Flying was his life but not once do I remember him moaning about his bad luck.

WhyByFlier
I'm afraid if you "became a pilot solely for point 1", then becoming an airline pilot probably wasn't the best choice you could have made!

I've always said, the best paid pilot jobs are either dangerous or boring, and airline flying certainly shouldn't be dangerous!

Anyone seeking point 1, most definitely should NOT be considering selling their soul to the devil to sit in the RHS of an airliner! There is so much fabulous flying to be done elsewhere!

There are also non-flying jobs that pay much much better, should you prefer to turn yourself upside down on a weekend at your own expense!:D