Well, at the moment, US pilots working for UPS, ABX and Fedex are taking away EU jobs by only allowing US pilots, or FAA holders to fly their equipment doing domestic European flying, based in reality in Europe.

How fair is that?

You, and the rest of SWAPA, ALPA, APA, etc. won't do anything except make a lot of noise on Capitol Hill!:roll eyes:

You may win the lobbying battle, but I wouldn't bet on it.:E

I have been told that BK has a lot of "alternative options" to deal with this, including "employment in Europe" through Rishworth , alternative A.O.C's etc etc.

The protestations may delay things a bit, but, in previous actions the operation has continued to grind on whilst the details were hammered out.

Importantly, I doubt if any of this will have the useful side effect of raising the T's & C's of those currently employed, nor of those in the future.

Seems there are more than enough folk tempted by the current uninspiring package to harbour any dreams of it getting significantly better.

Whatever happened to the 787 pilot training agreement between NLH and Virgin? Are there Virgin pilots training on the NLH 787s right now?


See below from last year:






Norwegian Long Haul (Norwegian Air Shuttle) (Oslo) has signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with Virgin Atlantic Airways (London). The agreement enables Norwegian to tap into Virgin Atlantic’s expertise on long-haul operations, while Virgin Atlantic’s instructors will receive pilot training on board Norwegian’s brand new 787-8 Dreamliner. Norwegian’s first Dreamliner is due for delivery at the end of June.

The cooperation with Virgin Atlantic will enable Norwegian’s long-haul pilots to make use of the airline’s vast long-haul experience. Virgin Atlantic will make all its training material available to Norwegian. Virgin Atlantic’s pilots to train on board Norwegian’s 787 Dreamliner.

Didn't Virgin cancel their order?

Yes there is quite a few Virgin pilots on secondment at Norwegian long haul flying on the 787.

Most of them are going back at the end of the summer.

Norwegian Long Haul is a terrible company, the way they treat their crews is simply appalling.
They put the crew in a hotel the night before they are supposed to start a duty, what a waste of free time. They even make them eat breakfast, and crew meals.
When they return the company has the audacity to try and put them in a hotel again!
They simply refuse to allow anyone to sleep on the crew room floor, without giving justification.
They refuse to give commands to pilots without long haul experience and they even insist on wide body time for the relief guys, outrageously unfair on everyone else.
They pay the crews at the end of the month, even when they don't fly, why can't they pay by the hour like a proper company.
They don't even have the decency to discriminate, American based cabin crew, where does the travesty end?

So... only pension and insurance contributions are on time, then?

Just read an interesting piece of online "journalism" explaining how NAI pays the going global rate for B787 pilots.

So good to hear good NAI provides something at least in the way of HOTAC
and allowances, and is not following the strict bare bones LCC model.
Certainly they pay for uniforms and in-base parking as well. The Royal Thai Taxation department, Ministry of Labour and Thai Immigration should hardly be concerned
about nominally BKK based pilots employed by a Singapore shell company flying continually in and out of Swampy on GENDEC. An immigration crackdown was announced a week before the coup, but full AEC integration is just on the horizon. Yeah, right.

Do you have to come up with the initial training cost or just bond for it,
how much/long would that bond be?
Do you pay for your own recurrent training?
How are sick days allocated? Paid leave?
Loss of license through Rishworth should be available.
Medical cover for these NYC based JAA rated pilots with right of abode in USA should not be an issue, they can apply for Obamacare.

I know this post is sarcastic, but would actually like to know, there is a lot of misinformation on the internet.

I too have applied for this and despite touching base every now and then with the agency I've been informed that who they call forward ranges from anything from 250 hour guys to 12,000 skippers. There doesn't seem to be any pattern to it.

I've also flown on them and yes it was delayed. It was explained that they are "based" in Bangkok (however they've only been on there on layover), their contract was Singapori, where they were paid in Euro's and flew aircraft on the Irish register. Every employee of Longhaul except a very few senior guys are on Rishworth contracts.

The whole thing suggests it has been done a) To avoid the high costs of employment on Scandanavian contracts and b) It can be closed down very quickly with minimal cost if circumstances require it.

Clever tactical moving of the goalposts by the management, however another example how our industry by its nature is exploiting globalisation to enhance the profit margins.

Dreamshiner
 

Spot on mate!
Congrats.:ok:

I think our career prospectives have been continously spiralling down for the latest 30 years or so.
Unfortunately it doesn't look we are about the reach the bottom.
Lot's of youngsters happy in selling mom to have a seat on a flight deck.
On the other extreme, old farts selling themselves very cheapely, after decades on legacy carriers (and fat pensions), for more few years on the same flight deck.
Disgusting.:ugh:

Dreamshiner/fullforward,

fair summary.

Fullforward: I don't agree with you. All of us are quite within our rights to work until we are 65 if we so wish or if our circumstances dictate the need to work.

Terms and conditions within Europe are being eroded by our lack of ability to form a cohesive Europe wide Union which has both strength and lobbying power. You see cabin crew unions able to dictate better conditions than Pilots and train drivers paid double or more First Officer salaries.

Youngsters need to be educated that indebting their family to the tune of 125,000 euro plus, endangers both their furure and maybe the future retirement of their parents. unfortunately unscrupulous training organisations continue to sell the dream and not explain the reality.

Sorry for amazing thread drift but in response to couple of posts above; -

ASLEF have done a remarkable job on the railways. They had true solidarity with the train driver fraternity. A lot of that solidarity in recent times came as a result of privatisation years ago - they essentially represented the entire collective of drivers in the UK who worked for BR. This solidarity carried over to privatisation, how long it will carry through in the future with the fragmentation post privatisation remains to be seen. It's still good though. Recent DB schenker advert for trainees 47k absolute basic for contracted and protected 35 hour week plus serious overtime pay if willing and one of the best pensions going. Hit your contracted 1500 odd hours a year with a rail company and you can chose the rest of the year off.

John Smith

I think encouragement of youngsters to take on significant levels of debt, in a career where your future is very uncertain, purely for personal profit is unscrupulous. In fact it almost defines unscrupulous. What happens when interest rates go from less than 1% to more than 10%. Answer a lot of bankrupt Young F/O's.

The FTO's also discourage their prospective customers from listening to the advice of people who have been through the process.

kungfu panda., right with you when you say all of us are quite within our rights to work until we are 65 if we so wish, or if our circumstances dictate the need to work.



But, and it is a big buck. Don't be so bloody egocentric to accept a shat contract as an ex KLM Captain that helps the unscrupulous wannabe long haul companies depress the T's & C's for the next generation.


This last 15-20 years in European aviation has been characterised by a generation of pilots who would accept any old cr@p, because they were "moving on out/moving on up". The problem, as many are now realising, is that by failing to take care of their current T's & C's, they have encouraged the migration of this disease to companies they once aspired to. I would quote Ryanair & NAS as a real time example of this metastasis.

For sure an ex KLM Capt joining NAS doesn't have to worry for him, but how about he gives some thought to his children, or even grandchildren, or at least those amongst their peer group who wish to be pilots.

This "screw you I will top up my retirement/pay for my 3rd & 4th wife" attitude is by no means new, asks anyone employed in an "independent" in the UK how much they have benefited by 55yr old retired "Nigels" parachuting in to add nonchalance to the wage negotiations.

Captplaystation.... It used to be BA guys, now they are able to work until 65. The KLM pilots have an issue, I think that they are retired at 57 now, could be wrong. Some of those Guys want to continue working until they are 65, which they are entitled to do. I would think that they really need to take that up with KLM management. However terms and conditions are not dictated as a result of these guys wishing to prolong their career. Our poor T & C's come from our ineptitude regarding collective bargaining. We hold all the cards, sit the aeroplanes on the ground... they pay more...

kungfu panda


Yep, they are by no means the only ones responsible, just that they are perhaps easier to identify (and indeed even understand) than the lame ducks that many are when it comes to taking a stand.

After much of my career spent in companies where the Union supped ale with the management down the lodge (BM) or nobody, or at least too few, had the b@lls for a fight ( & 1 of the two unions involved non plus, - ( Ryanair) . . BALPA were the eunuchs, IALPA were steely men ! ) I am heartened that my current gig seems to be comprised of men who talk softly but carry a big stick (Ooo er mother ! ) Well done the Scandis, the Vikings are not for feckin with.