I've seen the standards drop here in the UK. Some FOs have no formal qualifications and can't do basic maths or spell correctly. Where are the professional standards?

The way I used to explain my job to my friends is: A person working a 40 hour week works about 160 hours a month. I was at work-on duty for about that much. I got paid about 80 flight hours a month and was gone from home about twice that much or 320 hours a month. Nobody envied me my job when I put it that way.

Take the national carriers statistics out of the equation and BINGO!......You'll have a more realistic quote for average pilot wages.

knowing people in both types legacy and loco you maybe surprised at who actually takes home the most pay. They seem remarkably on par really. Certainly misleading statistics. It's like saying a doctor consults for 4 hours a day 5 days a week and dividing his salary between those 20hrs when in reality he does 40hrs.

We'll its hard to get into it, not that many guys/girls can put out £100K as it is, especially in current climate... I see what you are saying and I agree the issue is to many candidates for jobs but I think its far from and easy job to get into, takes a lot from you to get to the stage of working for an airline. Its not a commoners job otherwise there would be even more people fighting for jobs, even if you go out anywhere and say that you are a pilot everyone is impressed, it command respect, envy ect. Because everyone wants to be a pilot but far from a position to become one... Its a dream for most....

I believe it more of a problem from the side of recruitment/training... It should be controlled more, look at train drivers, they apply for a job first then begin training (yes its high competition 1 to 300 places) but then look at their conditions and salary, its amazing, for what is a fairly simple job (no offence)... Pilots on the other hand hard job but awful conditions/salary... The main thing I can only see logical now is for the pilots to unite and say enough is enough, we want our rights back... Stop working for a few days all together on a mass scale, say usa and europe stop all flights for 2-3 days, that would be all that it takes to start rolling the ball our way... Make them understand again the importance of our roles...

Very, very funny!!!!!

Who said: 'There are lies, damn lies and statistics'

Very true in this case

I agree with MaximumPete. The statistics do not tell the whole sad story.
Truth is, since the 1970's we have done nothing, nothing as a profession to guard and control the entrance qualifications and the quality of candidate entering this profession. Instead, we allowed all sorts of routes into this job. We allowed the ex military fast jet alpha males to wrestle their way into controlling the airline management. What a mistake to make. a scales b scales etc. Just look at how... the Police Doctors Surgeons Lawyers Architects Dentists Building Surveyors have protected their terms and conditions together with entry to the profession! It takes work to do it.

The royal college of airline pilots, now there is a thought. So the ''business psychopaths'' running the airlines are able to divide and rule, witness what has happened over the last few years.
We have only ourselves to blame. Shame on us all from Hong Kong through the Middle East and all the way to Europe.
Was it Carole King that wrote 'its too late baby now its too late ..we really did try and make it..something inside has died and its too late I just cant fake it.

Most of us were programmed in the early years of our lives to "go to school, work hard, get a good job and then you'll be set for life"! In fact this advice has doomed many of us to lives of mediocrity! Do you ever hear a parent say "Go out there and create some passive streams of income!"

Whilst agreeing that airline pilot pay and other terms and conditions have fallen considerably over the last decade or so it's just a symptom of being caught in the "time for money" trap.

In the UK if you are employee, considering a year starting on 1st Jan you would have to work until about May 26th for the government (in order to pay taxes) and the money you earn during the rest of the year goes into your pocket.

If you own a business you only have to work till around January 28th for the government and then the rest of the year you get to keep all the money.

In simple language you will never ever get rich working for anyone else - your employer will pay you the minimum amount he/she can get away with!

Robert Kiyosaki, who has written several best sellers including "Rich Dad Poor Dad" which is a highly recommended read says in the age we live in you should now aim to have multiple sources of passive income.

What I am saying is that nobody in his right mind would go into the airline pilot profession now based purely on the monetary rewards! There may be other reasons but from a financial point of view it's insane!

Not necessarily the "business psychopaths". Don't forget it was the Uk's largest pilot union that decided to 'stay neutral' (whilst one of their Reps actively supported and promoted the idea of a strike breaking force) whist colleagues were trying to defend their T&C's.
Trade unionism and solidarity is finished, in it's place is selfishness. Lie back and enjoy!

Well said fireflybob. But we made big mistakes, not helped by the demand supply cycle in the aviation industry.

Excellent post Koi - especially the comment regarding "Military Management" - has never worked, never will! My previous employer is proof...

koi

I'm interested to discover how you come to your conclusions re military pilots ruining things.

In the early post-war days, the vast majority of airline pilots were ex mil.

This continued well into the 60s, gradually reducing from then onwards to now where there are almost no military pilots left thus few ex-mil joining the airlines.

I think we would all agree that this closely mirrors the decline of airline terms and conditions from the heyday post war period, with the fun and lifestyle decreasing ever since.

Correllation?
Definately.
Causation?
Maybe....

A reasonable man might make the case that it is all you civvy types ruining things for us ex mil types who had set things up beautifuly before you came along and fecked it up for everybody.
:ok:

An aside for Sovi3tskiy
 

As an airline pilot Sovi you should not accept any loading on your life insurance premium, commercial aviation is the safest form of transport, safer than road and trains etc. Go see a broker and get him to make your case for you to the underwriter, (the broker works for you but is paid by the underwriter). Insurance companies will load up a premium at the drop of a hat, in the case of an airline pilot the actuarial statistics do not support any loading, quite the reverse in fact.

fireflybob has hit the nail on the head.

I don`t have a pilot job yet but am looking. Yeah you don`t get paid huge amounts but it`s your other investements that make you money. I have a friend who has just taken semi-retirement at the age of 45. How come!!!

All the money he has ever earned has been pumped into property and so he now gets enough income to live very comfortable for the rest of his life. My parents wish they had bought a property and rented it out rather than put there money in some pension scheme which will pay them jack all once they retire.

The rich don`t get rich from a job, they get rich from savvy investments.

I've read through all the previous posts carefully, and would agree that the NoS report is not an accurate reflection of airline pilots' renumeration. Whilst not an airline pilot myself (one of the despised ex-RAF FJ fraternity), I have many friends, old and young who were, or still are. Regardless of flight time, crew duty time, or hours away from home, the raw fact is that you are well-qualified and justifably extremely well-paid; and for doing something that is held in high respect by your customers, the envy of many (myself included), but out of reach for most.

That said, your belly-aching is laughable, and would be viewed with scorn and disbelief by the vast majority that are paid significantly less, with far less attractive terms and conditions. I wouldn't advocate airing your views in my local!! Get real, as they say.

Can someone turn the following to the National Office of Statistics?


If Selected for the Post of Captain or First Officer
If the applicant is successful in the pre-recruitment tests and is offered contracted employment as a Captain or a First Officer by the airline and the applicant accepts the appointment then the applicant will:

Sign an agreement with the airline, initially for one (1) year with an option to extend or renew the contract for an additional year.
Agree to pay a sum of US$ 5,500 to the recruitment agent for the issuance of Work Permits and Visas for the period of the contract and accordingly sign a covenant with the recruitment agent instructing the airline to deduct the said sum in three equal installments from the first three months remuneration and pay each such installment to the recruitment agent.
Sign a covenant with the recruitment agent instructing the airline to deduct a recruitment service fee of IDR 5,000,000 (US$ 528) from each month’s remuneration during the contractual term of 2 years and pay each such recruitment service fee to the recruitment agent.

There are 2 things that should and do determine how much you get paid: Supply and demand.

Everything else is completely irrelevant.

Well I guess it must be either Sunday, you're all airborne, or you're enjoying your eleven days of rest! Enjoy.

No Cuefaye, I suspect your rather stupid last paragraph has left people wondering if you are a troll or simple ignorant of life;

Quote:

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The report is total tosh and has been pointed out as such, it is not 'bellyaching' as you put it, what people who are less qualified than pilots get paid is irrelevant, as is what the very large tranche of people who get paid more than pilots, without necessarily being any better qualified or having as much responsibility.

NoS report = Rubbish. Pilots pointing this out = Good common sense.
Your post = Rubbish. Yours last post, looking for reaction = Troll