Simple question! (FR)
 

I am looking to save some assessment € and maybe a 30k€ TR, so for what it's worth:

Go Ryan or continue jobless?

What about instructing ? or possibly a ground position to get some contacts - dispatch, cabin crew, ops are all good ways to increase knowledge at the same time. You could do the Ryan route but think that ship is slowly sailing and you wont earn much at all or get huge numbers of hours anymore.

OutsideCAS, thank you for your kind advise! I have already thought about this for some time and still feel that I can't weight the situation correctly.. What would you choose if you had an assessment closing in and nothing else in hand?

@jetpipe,

If i were you, go for ryanair. Yes, 30k is lot of money but you gain experience and your marketvalue will go up. What experience do you gain if you gain jobless???

It will be hard in the beginning but it will pay off later on.

Good luck and dont forget to enjoy the typerating.

Jetpipe, if you have an interview with Ryan then i guess on balance have a go for it, but i would be thinking about how much flying and earning potential i will have as a contractor with Ryan after spending such a large sum of money. In times past, it was a good way to get lots of experience on a good type and earn reasonable money but as said before those times are past. All you really are to Ryan is a source of revenue and their current business model is now unsustainable from a new hire perspective - down to personal preference in the end.

What is your end goal? Airline pilot? Flight instructor? Bizjet pilot? Plane spotter? Figure that out first.

If you don't get the Ryanair 737NG type and experience, someone else will get it and move forward. At the end of the day, if you have the type and you get a minimum acceptable number of hours in it (not sure - probably 2,000 hours of 737NG flying), you become attractive to other carriers worldwide. Sure, that could take many years, but they may be the requirement to move to another gig down the road.

I haven't checked into them, but have you also looked at some of these flight programs (not sure if attached to a specific flight school) that set you up with low-pay Indonesian operators like Lion Air? Sounds like they pay nothing, they treat you like craaap, procedures are questionable, but you can get something like 800 hours per year on a 737-900ER. If you can withstand the short term pain, the long-term gain in terms of experience and career marketability could be very good. Just sayiang I would look into it if Ryanair would not get you where you want to go....

Interesting Nick. I didn't know that. I don't see many cadets undergoing line training to be fair.

First of all, thank you all for your replies!

You have summarized most of the factors affecting my decision.

@Stick35 - As much as I would like to agree with you and just do it, I have examples about ryan-cadets who after line training were put in a hotel working 5-10hrs per month, forced to move from one base to another, countless standbys in their schedule, etc... On the other hand though, I have some nice examples, fresh ones who are currently working their :mad:ss off! I assume If I proceed, I will be needing a huge amount of luck!

@OutsideCAS - I know these times are past and that's the bothering part!

@Iver - I agree that it's all about the experience but Lionair?? No no! (Not that Ryanair is a better airline, but at least they have higher standard training and ofcourse fly Europe).

@0hunter0 - It seems that you have a clear insight/view of things...

@nick14 - What are your sources if I may ask? From what I know, the assessment days at East Midlands are 2 days x 8 candidates, per week continuous all year! I don't know how many of the successful ones are offered TR though..

In the end I think I' ll agree that it will be interesting and a nice experience to go to the assessment. So maybe that alone is a good first step! After that let's just leave it to fate...

Lionair an equivalent to Ryanair? :eek:

Actually, i think Hunter is spot on. There is absolutely no reason for them to slow FO recruitment whilst the demand is still there from wannabes, and word from TRE and SFI alike is that the 'cannery' at EMA is still working flat out!:E

@Depone - I meant from an employee to employer perpective! Not that I know how things are at Lionair ofcourse... ;)

Keep your money in your pocket. Please.

There's some utter rubbish on this thread. For a start, promotion prospects have never been better with so many Capts and senior FOs leaving. The real question is whether you want to join a company that has such a peculiarly high staff turnover, given what it alludes to.

From what I hear, FO recruitment will be cut to 150 next year (down from 450 per annum).

Open your eyes, look at all of the unemployed BMI Baby pilots. Experience currently means diddly squat. Experience costs the airlines money and all they really want is trainers and pay to fly inexperienced cadets that they can rape.

Jetpipe. If it were me I'd start the process and get as much information about the current states of pay and work available in person or linkedin about Ryanair.
There are a decent of armchair pundits on here that'll look to push you either way based on their own opinions.

Do the budgeting and if it is something you can live with, think it's a job and type rating where others have neither... I don't care what people say, if you can afford it you will have a clear advantage going forward. Best of Luck ;)

W G A. I think you are the one with blinkers on. If no one ever gained experience there would be no aircraft flying. The BMI guys may be out of work, but in general, they are far better placed to get a job than most just now. You have to start somewhere and yes, there is a risky area in between staring and gaining a command, but if you don't start, you will never get there. The question is, does he pay now and get on the band wagon, or does he wait and hope he gets something for free later!

do the type rating! once your licence is a year old with no flying it is almost a useless piece of paper and you still have training debts!!

yes 30k is a lot and the pay in the first twelve months is crap, in fact it is almost the same as an fo turboprop pay but you dont see many turboprop fo going to emirates do you!! most guys at my base uk (worst bases in winter!!)average 55 hrs across all the fos on about 60euro an hour( i think, not sure) so work on 3000euro a month.
what can you earn pulling pints or flippin burgers!! and will that give you experince for another flying job.
The aviation market in europe is dead so what do you do? get a job so that you are gaining experience or wait it out and see what happens when guys are just out of flying school and a lot more current.
as much as the ryanair deal sucks what other companies are recruiting cadets that dont make you pay for the type!!!

good luck with your choice but remember the ink on your licence is drying fast!!!!

captainng,

I agree that recency is important, but as mentioned earlier in this thread there are other options besides going for FR at once. I think training and working as an FI is one thing which deserves to be mentioned in this context. It might take some time and it won't necessarily lead to more instrument, ME or multicrew hours for a while, but several young pilots have successfully taken the road as FIs before. From what I hear the experience is valued by some operators and may open some extra doors.

My license is well over a year old. I'm going for an FI(A) rating now, but I'm also considering FR or other operators as a cadet. I'm getting pretty tired after a year of odd jobs and little flying, but I hope to get something going as an instructor. While I might be a bit naive and ignorant about some things at the moment, I believe that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Most of the operators I've been in contact with this far seem to have been more interested in knowing my total hours and little else besides other minimum requirements.

ls-4
i came through the charter world of piston singles and twins and then on to turboprop and then command on them and then moved onto jets with a fast command into the left with ryanair.
as much as i love the experience i have gotten from going this way it certainly hasn,t put me in a better situation financially as i was on lesss than jet fo pay for the first 12 years of my career. now being in my late 30s almost 40s i have collegues who are 25 and are going to be in a much better situation when they are my age.
i fly with guys who were and still are instructors and all there comments are that they wished they had applied to ryanair earlier as no one seems to care about flight instructor hours.
I am all for getting as much stick time as possible before jumping onto a jet but flight instructing is mostly watching somebody else fly it for you so you are really aren't getting much out of it anyway and the pay is less than min wage when you take in all the hours that you dont get paid.
only my two cents but if i had my time over again i would like to have gone straight to a jet as nobody counts my piston and turboprop time anyway!!

I very much appreciate your inputs guys!
Specially you from inside the airline!

Simply put, as I see it, Ryanair maybe has the doors closing but as long as I manage to get on that train it will be fast track on advancing my career.. A few years of struggling in debt yes, but after that things will probably be easier! Don't get me wrong, I won't say no to any job and I will continue my search.. To be honest I 'd love a prop-job for some years to gather valuable experience before I advance on the jets. I'm not in for the money (yet!) I just want to be proficient in what I do and enjoy my working and non working days (hopefully with some nice colleagues to!), then if my job can pay the bills too that would be just perfect! Too naive ain't I ? :(

captainng,

I respect your view / experiences and understand that things can vary between different individuals and operators.

I think most (working) pilots I've spoken to about this have recommended the FI scheme while continuing to apply for airline jobs, especially those who are FIs or FEs themselves. A few have said that I should look to buy a TR, but I'm still a bit skeptical about that. The idea of contributing to such an employment policy makes me a bit uneasy at the moment, but that doesn't mean I'll never do it. If I should feel strongly enough about adapting in that way, so to speak, I might go through with it.

On a different note, I'm not a member of the "bigger is better" crowd. Some of my favourite companies operate mostly turboprops. Their TT requirements are well above my hours at the moment, though.

ls-4 why go to flight instructing and then looking for a job on a jet when you can go straight to the jet! sounds like adding a step that is not needed in the first place.
if you have no job by all means find any job that keeps you flying!!
but if you can get that jet job as the first then go for it i say!!

i dont think there are many other jobs on jets other than ryanair/easyjet ctc deal around at the moment for cadets.
if you get on a turboprop it seems to be a career staller at the moment as fr/ez only want cadet anyway!
good luck with the job hunting as i certainly wouldn't want to be in that situation in todays aviation market!

No openings for fresh FOs at easyJet at the moment, as far as I know. I would appreciate it if you had anything interesting to share about that.

Some of the companies I desire at the moment almost exclusively operate turboprops. I can add that I'm not talking about anyone based in Britain.

I don't feel a special need to fly the B737, but I won't turn down a good opportunity either. Ryanair is becoming an option. More sources (some independent, some not) are clearly positive about Ryanair's operational standards.

I certainly understand and respect your standing, and I agree to some extent, but times may have changed a bit.

I've been working odd jobs since finishing school and more before that. I get bored out of my skull with it. There are some places one just doesn't belong over time.

FI course underway. I've applied for just about everything you've mentioned, still looking.

Again, at this point I'm not a member of the "big jets are all there is" movement. I think I'll be quite happy with lighter machines sporting grinders for propulsion.

EGGC - I'm afraid your suggested career path is somewhat out of date and no longer feasible to the vast majority. A shame as I think your instructing / air taxi / turboprop route makes excellent pilots but in this economic climate there are very few instructing jobs and I've never even seen an ad for air taxi recruitment. The odd chap with good contacts might be lucky but 99% won't be. What else to do than pay for a rating with a loco?

Times have changed sadly and a job directly onto jets is the best option for most, otherwise their skills will decline and they will become unemployable as the months and years of job hunting pass by.

Simple supply & demand I'm afraid. Crazy as it sounds to pay £100k+ for a job, there are endless lists of people with the desire to do it.

And then there's the Ryanair Pension Scheme ...................

skyflyer737,

I think your post makes some sense and that a lot of people would agree with you. It might seem that some line pilots who began working a good while ago lack some understanding of the situation currently faced by many fresh CPL(A) holders.

I understand the fact that wide acceptance of self-sponsorship and poor T&Cs add pressure on the rest of the industry, but I think this is going to continue unless it is countered by law somehow.

Then again things may vary from country to country. Language skills and the will and ability to relocate etc. can play a role. I get the impression that a good deal of the discussions in this section of the forum are centered on relatively big and familiar airlines. There are a bunch of smaller operators here and there as well.

EGGC, your post should be in every :mad: newspaper !!!

All of us newcomers start with the same dream but as you struggle moving towards it, you watch it being torn apart... You think of the past and if you 'd do it all over again and the answer is yes you would because you 'd still want that answer to the question, ''Will I succeed, can I do it, will I FLY?'' You would do it all over again because you 'd feel that no other job can fill your heart like being up there...

I knew when I started training that there was no shortage of pilots out there... but if I 'd be a good pilot, that would definitely make a difference... airlines would certainly want to have me I thought! What a fool I say today and aren't we a few?!

Being a pilot is easy, being a good pilot isn't but that's of no significance... only thing that counts is € and $ !! Airlines where proud of their pilots once, today they 're proud of their APs! As long as the AP flies error-free what do you need a good pilot for? Therefor standards have gone low and we have become too many... and the pool is growing! That's the heart of the problem! :ugh:

Let's dance with the wolfs !!

I finally got an answer, I went through the selection and was offered a place in a springs TR course. All this time I was reviewing my options and I regrettably have to say that there aren't any other than this one for a lowtimer like me coming from a financially struggling country... I wish things weren't as they are in aviation nowadays and everybody could get a clear chance to prove what they re made of!

my advice: don´t do it!

study something in the meantime, get other qualifications and don´t get depended on a pilot job. On the same time be current with your licence.
Airlines are suffering, check & medicals are to be passed for years and then to work for such a outfit like Ryanair with so poor working conditions and treatment. Even if you have hours, the markets now to go are China and Middle East like Emmirates is the same like Ryanair just painted in golden colors.
It´s a spiral down, with no botton end.
I was also young, always wanted to become a pilot. I have worked hard for it.
But i never invested in paying what i considered airlines to pay for. I could not even afford it. Being sponsored from a bankrupt airlines maybe i was lucky, but even then, i cannot recommend this job to anyone anymore with good conscious.
We should make people aware: STOP paying for what airlines are supposed to pay!

EGCC - I agree with your every word. The poor souls who elect to accept the shafting offered to them by Easyjet/Flexicrew/Ryanair in anticipation of a move some years later to a better employer are in for a rude awakening. Those employers won't be there for them any more. In the face of competition from Ryanair and Easyjet (whose low cost business model moves expenses onto their employees who appear to willingly accept this) these decent Companies will have either adopted the same practices or have gone bust.

These unthinking people are pulling the rug out from beneath their own feet.

The only possible solution is for them to act collectively to raise their own terms and conditions but they don't seem able to get their ducks in a row. Too busy dreaming about aeroplanes and too self-centred to organise themselves.

They just can't see it.

With all due respect 738driver, the job (and the behaviour of FR) is a different kettle of fish now - compared to 5 years ago. This poor soul will have a lot longer in the right hand seat, will be forced to be involved in a murky ltd company in IRE and FO hours are declining.

For those reasons, I wouldn't hand over €30k to East Midlands Training.

@ 737 jockey
 

People (i won´t even say Cpt with that lack of leadership) like you are the reason why our jobs are declining. Thinking that it is normal to pay for a TR is just stupid and the reason why our all T&C are falling down. Well maybe you think it is also normal to pay for you uniform, SIM, check and water on board.
You are more a soldier of the current market situation.

Return of Investment?
You just flew 5 years? One day you will have this FO on your right hand seat with a great financial burdens. And then the others to follow. In the meantime O´Leary will continue to shaft you from behind, and as you said, it is only business: Don´t expect your current conditions not to be changed, the "90ies" generations at least have been were working much longer in the proper airlines and stayed there much longer as you will be in your future. You just have a very poor long term thinking.
The root cause are selfish und self centered people like you. And the wrong people which are attracted in that postion, who would before never been able to enter this profession. Working in a bank would suit you more.

And the poor guy, having 30k more depth has to fly with you one day.
He will never see aviation at it was used to be. With great people to fly with, with the job at the hand and striving for excellence. That is sad. I hope for him with the little luck that one day he can move forward to a much better company than Ryanair and will never end up like you.
:eek:

Think you've made the correct decision, good luck. I think it's an excellent place to start and to get experience that you won't get elsewhere.

In 4/5 years time I think one of two things will have happened:

1) Market's picked up again, everyone is hiring. With your experience at FR you'll be at the front of the queue, or at least way ahead of those that have done dispatch for 4 years. Your destiny will be far more in your hands than if you have no experience, specially if you'd been out of training for a while.

2) More and more European airlines have disappeared leaving just Ryanair, easyjet and a handful of national carriers. Those not already in are shut out. Luckily if you've been at Ryanair all this time, you're doing alright.


Remember you got into this because you wanted to spend your days flying planes and getting paid for it. That's what you're getting. Yes it sounds wrong having to pay to get a job but it's more than just a job, it's your whole lifestyle. Right now not many airlines are giving you that opportunity, but Ryanair are. So go to Ryanair. You can sit around speculating or you can get out there grab it by the balls and go for it. Sounds like that's what you've done which I think was the wise choice.

Maybe if a few more of the old boys had had to pay £100,000 to get into it in the first place we'd have found out who really wants to fly. Some seem to be suggesting that paying the money shows you want it LESS!! People that were picked up and put on schemes knowing that if they didn't like it they could leave at any time with no financial implications are suggesting that those of us who have considered this investment and gone into it knowing that this is for life as we can't afford for it not to be don't want it as much. Doesn't make sense to me. That's why we get into it later and aren't flying across the Atlantic at 21 - these days we only go for it when we know it's definitely what we want to do with our careers.

Enjoy Ryanair, I think you'll love it.

Golf Romeo...
You must be kidding. :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:
You really need a reality check. Wake up:
Paying 100.000 pound to pay for a pilot job is not normal. It´s just plane insane. How can this show motivation? Do we attract the very best for this job? I don´t think so. We as pilots need to make proper decisions, make a proper risk assesment, how risky is it to invest this amount of money and thereafter not finding a job? Now he sign for the TR, thinking there is no way of return.
Will the very best be attracted for the job or the one with the rich parents? The entry requirement should be based on suitability for the job and not how much you can afford to pay. If the majority of people would NOT do that, we would find a complete different job market now.
The problem is, it is too easy to qualify for the ATPL exams. And this is why the standards are dropping, the supply is just too much.
Pay to fly is pervers and there is NO way to justify this practice.
And in 5 years the market will not be easier, the airline you want to move maybe also will no exist.
This is you only post, you must be Michael O´Leary or one of clowns of Base Captain, promoting fuel league table. "Love" to fly for Ryain?
Have a look on the other threat, this link was posted there.
Good luck.


Reporter - Mayday Mayday - International version

Neither, get a real job instead, The fact that people pay ryanair for these things have forced other airlines to follow in the "race to the bottom" There are no decent airline jobs anymore, alternate education is highly advised.

Get a degree, change field.

Or if you really want to fly, get an FI rating build some experience and find a good school to work for.

I was an FI for a long time and had fun/paid holidays/stable salary with an open end contract and a possible career path.

Then I was blinded by the shiny jet and I put myself and, even worst, my own family in a financial situation that I am trying to get out of daily.

I just feel bad for helping MOL destroying this industry.

Dont get me wrong, flying a 737 is fun when you forget who you are working for and at what conditions (i.e. during the last 15 miles of an approach), but you cannot refer to is a a job, more like a hobby.

Anyone that has to pay for their employment is just prostituting themselves. Any airline that requires you to pay for your employment is just running a whorehouse.