BMI pilots will join at the bottom of the BA seniority list in the order of their BMI date of joining. BMI Captains and FOs will continue to be A320 Captains and FOs in BA....BUT....when a 'former' BMI Captain vacates his / her A320 command (in BA) then a former BMI FO will have first call on that command in BMI FO seniority order provided that the FO has remained on the A320 fleet, i.e. not changed fleets. It's the only way to ensure TUPE is preserved for BMI crews AND no BA pilot is disadvantaged which is what was assured prior to the recent vote.

Let’s get things straight here, tidy some facts up here. I don't know whether some of the BA folk here are trolling or really that naive? Most of the ones that have spoken to seem a really nice bunch but there are a few that seem to be stuck on the "No BA pilot will be disadvantaged" mantra.

First and foremost, this whole situation has become shambolic, period! Communication is fast becoming a safety risk. I fly with some people that are clearly stressed by the situation, such that I wouldn't be surprised that it is affecting their sleep, lives, families and potentially their thought processing. The respective Companies should be pushing out memos, stating the same facts at the same time. Rumour, conjecture and gossip is rife at this time. This is not helped by the fact that BA cannot talk to BMI CC, yet BACC can talk to their employer, meanwhile BACC are pushing for a conclusion with BMI CC when BMI CC are reliant on BACC to pass on the necessary facts. Talk about pi$$ ups in breweries.

Now I cannot go any further without wishing ALL Baby and Regional pilots and staff the best for the future. I truly hope that resolution can be found that sees all gainfully employed in a company that they are happy with whether that be at BA, Granite etc. There is never a good time to be unemployed (I am aware of that personally). So for those that have overheard conversations by Mainline guys in the LHR CRC (or elsewhere for that matter), I apologise on their behalf. There would definitely be no intent to cause offence, just plain old insensitivity and high blood pressures. However, what follows is now going to be just one Mainline pilots impression of things from their shoes regarding the BA integration, so I do appreciate that it may sound like someone fighting their corner because unfortunately it needs to be said.

Let me start by saying that I am keen to join BA. I have no chips on my shoulders as to wanting to work for the best or especially fly heavy metal (although this will be revisited later). I would consider myself an average pilot who has invested a a considerable number of years in to my career and witnessed first hand the degradation of Ts & Cs over the years.

I do not know who first came up with the "No BA pilot will be disadvantaged" BUT it makes my blood boil when I hear this. It's such a throw away one liner and yet it has been elevated to as I put earlier Mantra status. We do not know the true context it was meant in or whether the individual that said it actually has the full authority to say it. It is divisive and demeaning to anyone else who is not a BA pilot. What should have been said was "I would expect that ALL BA pilots will benefit in one way or another during their careers from this acquisition." With the original statement there is no timeline therefore any individual can say that they are being "disadvantaged" over the most trivial of issues and completely out of context of the original statement. Where did the original spokes person expect the line to be drawn? From where I'm sat and I am trying to be unbiased, the only tenuous link for a BA pilot being potentially disadvantaged would come from someone who has left BMI to join BA, thereby surrendering their seniority to join the bottom of BAs. This I understand but can honestly say that it is a case of making your bed and lying in it. IF BMI (mainline et al?) were to merge maintaining their DOJ then I would say that this is a gamble that Mainline pilots took. Many have considered leaving BMI to BA, many have availed that opportunity and some have decided to remain. Today if any former BMI pilot at BA had their choice again, would they gamble everything and stick it out at Mainline with the potential risk of redundancy in order to possibly join BA MSL slightly higher up the list - I didn't think so. So, you make your bed and you lie in it, knowing you made the best decision you could have at that particular moment in time. I mean no ill to those that have, just that you can't cry after spilling a few drops of milk, especially as you would have enjoyed all the benefits that we are informed BA offers over the Midland coal-pit package.

WRT those that quote CityFlyer, Danair and any other takeover performed prior to the mid-2000's, they are all antiquated. They can't even be used for statitical purposes. These historic mergers were not enshrined by the many new laws that have recently been legislated, many coming from our favourite friends in Europe under European Courts of Justice that have been slowly been absorbed into UK Law. BMI mainline went through a redundancy process that a few years ago and I believe for the first time in Mainline's history the decision could not be based on seniority as LIFO, despite what our contracts said. Other criteria had to be imposed. Despite the Union stressing that LIFO would be simpler and received by probably all the pilots the HR department insisted that it could not be used, lest they be taken to a tribunal for "unfair dismissal". This is the real world as of today. If the BACC and/or BA say that BMI pilots must go to the bottom of the MSL, they are essentially signing the death warrant of seniority with the UK airline industry as we know it. From what I can tell, at all levels in the BMI camp, there are many that believe this to be the only way forward. If not, then they are prepared for Armageddon that will probably ensue. When BMI integrated BMed, we were specifically and unequivocally told that it MUST be done by DOJ by BALPA HQ or else there could be a legal challenge to the seniority system. This was done and despite a number of Senior F/Os moving down the combined seniority list, even I believe they would say that they were not "disadvantaged".

In terms of the BA pilots, what are the areas of concern regarding a combined MSL? Presumably, as has been mentioned in the past on various forums, we have the subjects of lifestyle, command/type and salary as the normal commercial pilot objectives from their jobs.

We all know that BA want BMI purely for their slots. Nothing more, nothing less. In order to protect the slots they will need immediately aircraft, crews and some ancillary staff. We equally all are aware that BA need to use these slots for long haul operations where they are currently being utilised for predominantly short haul schedules, together with a number of medium haul and long haul routes. BMI are running incredibly lean at the moment, regularly I am called to ask to sell days off as there aren't enough pilots to cover the schedule. If BMIs slots (even given the fact that 14 may be negotiated out of the deal) were to become BA's, within a short time there would be a requirement for the recruitment of further crews in order to accommodate the increased crewing requirement for the long haul routes.

Returning to the previous point, lifestyle should not change other than to improve within BA as more routes become available. Salary would not be influenced other than the improvements or concessions that BALPA make along the way. Type/Command, this area should open up as more long haul becomes available requiring a higher crewing ratio per long haul airframe than the existing BMI or BA short haul fleet. Personally, I would like to fly to further afield, I joined a company that had aspirations of long haul and I wish to maintain that lifestyle. With the former BMed routes and a roster preference for longer trips, I would prefer not to be flying 319's to day stop on the aircraft at MAN and return back to LHR, which I get every-so-often. Size doesn't make a difference to me but flying 6+ hours with a minimum of 2 nights in a hotel does. This therefore would mean a long haul bid would be my preferred option. I have been flying Airbuses now for more years than I have any other type. I do not think that it is appropriate to be type frozen in BA, as I am not type frozen in BMI. I appreciate that if I chose to resign from a company and start afresh in a new company that had no former simulator or training notes about me, I would consider this reasonable but BA MAY be inheriting this if the integration is approved. I should hasten to add that speaking to my colleagues and peers in the crew room, I am in a significant minority on this point. There is a significant number that can't think of anything worse than embarking on a new type rating, in fact the mere prospect of changing car parks is a significant cause for them to question whether now would be a good time to exit UK flying. The attraction of EK DEC and/or contracting is quite tempting to some.

If you take into account some of what has been said above you should soon see that there is great potential for significant upset by forcing the bottom of MSL at all costs attitude. I have seen the posting by the BACC on the General forum and there is some that makes sense but there is a lot that I find both offensive and scare-mongering.

I agree that BA have the larger number of members within BALPA than BMI. That does not mean that they can bully through everything they like. Trying to score pot shots at the BMI CC is childish and appears to ridicule the BMI CC. Whose team to BACC are still part of BALPA the last time I checked, BALPA stood for "to use all available resources to protect and enhance the terms and conditions of our members". I personally think that until we see a MSL with both companies merged on DOJ, together with some forecasts for airframes/commands/fleets etc, then this back biting will continue with little sign of let-up. Viewing a combined DOJ would at least let the individuals see that there is very little to be disadvantaged by a merged MSL and everything to be gained.

Of course, I could be collecting DHSS payments in the near future but I am personally confident that the EU will see that there is no great cause for concern on the monopolised routes, as Lufthansa have now applied the necessary pressure to reinforce the fact that BMI may not be in competition with BA on these routes for long anyway. i.e. fait accompli, in that BA will be the sole provider on the route no matter what EU's decision. I can't think of another carrier that would want to carry the losses of the LHR domestics. Nor does another operator have the national permissions to operate the Cairo route if BMI were to step off pre-agreed.

I think that the opening poster "upandoffmyside" was not necessarily trolling but actually putting forward a valid question. I'm sure many would question their BALPA membership based on the recent BALPA HQ statements regarding integration within BMI of BMED and the now current dictate of BACC regarding how they see the land lies. My experience of BALPA has been actually very good at CC level within BMI. However, I think that BALPA HQ are the weak link and should be working night and day to arbitrate this fairly and not down to membership numbers. As the opening poster seems to be alluding, the ramifications of not being seen to be fair, has far reaching consequences within other airlines.

In summary, I really think that all parties should start with a clean sheet of paper and most definitely scrub the idea of "no BA pilot will be disadvantaged" from the history books. Let's start with how BA and BMI pilots will be "advantaged" because I really fail to see how (if integration goes ahead) such a small number of BMI pilots (many on part-time and those that don't go to pastures new), will cause such a catastrophic collapse of the existing pilots welfare and benefits!

If your statement is based on knowledge / insight, rather than guesswork ;) where will bmi Capts stand in the monthly bidding process?

a lot better off than they are now!:ok:

BMI captains and FOs will be at the bottom of their respective fleet lists. They can submit a bid (IB1) like everyone else. They may get a trip line (a line of work spread out over the month) or they may get a blind line (more likely) until they gain more seniority within the company.

A blind is a line of work constructed by ops once the two bidding processes are complete. Blind line holders can submit a preference prior to line construction, e.g. late day-trips or 4 day tours preferred or anything you like. Ops will try to accommodate preferences so long as the work is covered. About 3 weeks prior to the start of the month your roster is published. This is exactly what BMI crews get now so no loss of TUPE,

Its actually better than the current BMI situation in that you can swap trips with the overtime list or other crew. You can add trips as overtime. You can discard trips (with loss of credit / cash) using a system called eMaestro. Again BMI crews are not any worse off than their current situation and NO BA pilot is disadvantaged by a BMI pilot bidding ahead of them......WINNER, WINNER, CHICKEN DINNER.

Whether it is BA or BMI flightdeck, lets hope the views of the few don't spoil it for the benefits of the many!
:ok:

When BMED was purchased by bmi why were the BMED pilots merged into the bmi seniority list based on their BMED D.O.J.?

Presumably BALPA were party to this?

Fir Tree

I think that was answered in No Pushovers lengthy but informative post earlier, to quote:

So to me it would appear that Bath Road BALPA were the ones who were behind this motion. Perhaps some more posters can confirm/deny?

As a BA pilot myself, I'd say that Jockster's post about seniority within fleets has no actual basis in fact.
We are still at the stage where the BACC and BMI CC are discussing various areas and no agreement has been reached as yet.
Speculation - yes, plenty, but no facts.

I'd gladly give you my speculative opinion but it would add nothing to the debate.

Yes, there will be time and opportunity to debate these things, but consider

(a) There is no guarantee that it will go through given the European Commission's potential slot demands

(b) And if the slots demanded are accepted, IAG may end up having an excess of pilots and aeroplanes

(c) As the chairman of the BACC said elsewhere, what about the careers and BMI Baby & Regional pilots?

I would have hoped that was the picture we currently need to focus on.

No Walkover
 

Just to flip your comment to add a pinch of fairness.

You repeatedly comment on "you make your bed and you lie in it". Here is one line for you you joined BMI NOT BA you made your bed now lie in it!!!!! :}


On a serious note I hope all of this can be resolved, I will certainly not be confrontational or off hand with any BMI pilot that joins our ranks.

Just remember the rumour network is rife in this industry and amazingly only ever leads to let down, depression and a reduced positive outlook. Yes keep your ears open but take nothing as gospel until you see it in black and white with a section for your signature.

I pay no attention to rumour anymore as I swore never to again after the demise of a previous company. It only served to take the fun out of a job I love for the few months leading up to the end and an end I could not have changed anyway. I am sure we, for the most part, still love the job so don't let hearsay and conjecture ruin your life and suck the life out of you.

Listen by all means and even prepare yourself if needs be but don't let it take over your life. Life's too short as it is to be grumpy all the time.:ok:

Hello Nevermind. Please "speculate" on any other scenario / outcome where a BA pilot would not disadvantaged - anything at all? Any scenario which disadvantages a single current BA pilot would have to be rejected by BALPA because the whole acceptance of the BMI integration by the BA pilot workforce is based upon this.

Jockster

I think your interpretation of "disadvantaged" will be different to every other pilot in BA.
The BACC will never be able to ensure that no one in BA is disadvantaged.
They will reach the best compromise they can that will meet with the satisfaction of the majority of us that voted for integration.

Speculation IMVHO adds nothing to the debate at this moment in time.
Can I assume you are confirming that your posting regarding seniority is just that?

I can only add that during my career in BA, those airlines that have come into the fold have brought their slots and aircraft.
The pilots initially stayed on the fleets they were on for a few years - with grandfather rights - and were given a seniority number based on DOJ of BA.
These are simply facts as best I know them.

Because it was a merger of approximate equals. It doesn't matter how much anyone wants to portray things otherwise, this is a takeover of a failing company and thanks to an affirmative vote by current BA pilots agreeing to £10m of savings, BMI is being gifted by IAG to BA.

All future recruitment will be to BA mainline on BA terms and conditions which protects the future of BA mainline pilots. BMI pilots will hopefully become some of those very pilots in the near future, subject to the EU removing its finger from its elbow. However, BMI pilots will effectively be given a choice of remaining as a separate entity on their current T&Cs versus the mainline pilots, in which case as a group, they will wither as they progressively retire, with the FOs only having the option of moving to those former BMI command positions and the prospect of flying with new FOs recruited onto mainline. Alternatively, they will join the mainline seniority list more than likely at the bottom with BA T&Cs and appropriate protections, and have the same rights of movement as existing BA pilots.

Interestingly, wherever they join on the list, unless they choose to draw straws they will join in BMI seniority order, which unfortunately for them recognises the principle of seniority and its importance within a company. Therefore, any challenge to the BA seniority list won't hold much water in court I would have thought. :confused:

As one of the earlier posters said and especially now that the EU have started interfering and compulsory redundancies may be on the table, all BMI pilots must please read the post by the chairman of the BACC on the BALPA forum.

BA pilots want you all on board. None of us want to see any of you with a P45.

But of course this is not correct is it?

For example BMI pilots will have staff travel based on their DOJ BMI. Also should redundancies be required it will be BA pilots in the frame, and not BMI pilots.

The mantra is meaningless, and unenforceable?

Haven't got a lot of time to read the preceding posts but I get the feeling that the BAcc is trying to blackmail the BMIcc into accepting their terms of integration pre the sale going through thereby negating need for direct BMIcc negotiations with BA management. The question has to be asked as to why? Are the BAcc trustworthy and out for the interests of the BMI pilots to such an extent that securing a deal now is so imperative? I think not...

I'd rather take my chances and let the deal go through first (hopefully!) and then see what's on the table that can be hammered out within the confines of UK/EU employment law etc. There's a detectable air of desperation from the BAcc to secure a deal asap in this game of seniority poker. I smell a rat...

PS The last comment is not a reference to skip.rat above!

Why would redundancies come from BA? If the deal with the EU regulators includes a reduction of slots, one would assume that only the corresponding number of pilots would come over from BMI (obviously everyone is hoping it won't come to this). Surely you are not suggesting that BA pilots currently towards the bottom of the MSL would be made redundant to allow all of the BMI pilots to come over because their DOJ is earlier? I can't see that one getting very far......

Google is your friend:

As I understand it IAG are buying BMI before it is merged with BA. Between the purchase date and the merger date BMI would continue to be a separate company within the IAG group.

Should the number of slots that IAG aquire with the aquisition of BMI be less than anticipated, due to EU pronouncements, then any reduction in personel and aircraft required to service those reduced slots could be made before the merger with BA i.e. all reductions could be made from within the BMI workforce without any reference to BA.

BA pilots have voted to accept £10m worth of cuts to their T's & C's so that BMI pilots can be integrated.

Had BA pilots said no then BMI pilots would be staring Vueling T's & C's in the face. All legal.

As it stands now, thanks to the EU some BMI pilots face redundancy. Yet some are quibbling over seniority and freezes?

BA pilots have accepted £10m worth of cuts to allow integration. Did they do this to save the BMI pilots out of charity, I don't think so.

They did this to prevent an attack on their T&Cs in the form of all future expansion through a standalone within the IAG group that would be formerly known as BMI and become to be known as BA Express perhaps.

I believe the BAcc are nervous as to what actually happens post-purchase, when the BMIcc negotiate directly with the BA management. Only then will a truer picture emerge of the intentions of the IAG group as to what happens. The BA pilots may have voted to accept concessions as the lessor of two evils. That doesn't preclude some surprise from WW and the boys at IAG. It's a potentially messy situation in my opinion, and not something any of us can truly predict. Bring on the 30th...