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-   -   Ryanair & Storm McGinley (https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/472449-ryanair-storm-mcginley.html)

quarefellah 23rd Dec 2011 16:13

Ryanair & Storm McGinley
 
Hi All,
Flightglobal has a (new?) ad for TR and NTR commanders with FR through SMcG. Dare I ask is this a new 'axis of evil' or an attempt to move on from the BRK debacle? Fully expecting to be 'flamed' from a great height. All input welcome,
Happy Christmas & Safe Flying in 2012

widered 23rd Dec 2011 16:46

They are masters at divide and conquer and this is another trait.We stand to gain nothing from Ryanair's tactics only division of the pilot group and further decrease in conditions.
However we the Ryanair pilot group have something that cannot be beaten, something
that the civil rights movement in America in the 60's had, something the French resistance, Arab spring, Russian revolution and countless others had. Its called

SOLIDARITY !

EXERCISE YOUR BASIC CIVIL AND HUMAN RIGHT TO ORGANISE YOUR LABOUR!

JOIN IALPA!

Callsign Kilo 23rd Dec 2011 17:19

DECs. Wondered when the inevitable would occur.

leeds 65 23rd Dec 2011 18:28

The ad says the location is 'United kingdom'.

Same old same old. Any people upgrading can kiss good-bye to a UK base so.
It must be FR's bargaining tool for these DEC's. 'We will grant you your preferred base if you sign this rubbish deal'.So anyone upgrading currently can expect kaunus or wroclaw etc

The deal in itself is more divide and conquer. 135 per hour,not sure if this is before or after the sim deduction.Most likely before. However the new new BRK contract is for 145 per hour before sim deduction.

Aside from the above observations its now glaringly obvious that FR has ,or is about to have, huge crewing difficulties. The need for DEC's says it all. However the new annual leave mechanism is another example of rostering filling holes.My guess is that all bases that have a choice of only winter months are the bases most at risk during the summer if lads throw in a few resignations.Therefore a summer leave ban is imposed.

737 Jockey 23rd Dec 2011 18:34

Well one thing's for for sure, it's not going to be a step up for any Pilot concerned.

Hourly rate is EUR 10 less than the new 'New' Brookfield contract, although it's not clear if the EUR 4.50 for RST (Recurrent Sim T'ievery) is included. I see there are guaranteed minimum hours though....so that's a possible shafting for BRK pilots.

Before this thread gets obscured by the usual FR Pilot bashers, might I suggest the following link, where this topic is already being discussed:

REPA Members Sign In - Ryanair European Pilots Association

Please join REPA & IALPA.

Thanks.

Safe Flying! :ok:

PS. Storm McGinley sounds like a Male Porn Star....you're sure to get a right shaftin' too! :eek:

MrHorgy 23rd Dec 2011 20:24

I would seriously warn those individuals thinking of applying to take a long hard think about what they are doing.

At present, there is a large number of pilots (from shiny FO's to Base Captains and TREs) who are leaving to go, well, anywhere else other than Ryanair. We have a massive crewing issue going forward into 2012 and this is their idea of shoring up the numbers so we won't get royally screwed. It won't work. People don't pack in their jobs and go to another continent without good reason, especially those in secure, senior training positions. If it were me, i'd want to ask those people why it's so bad they left, and wonder whether it is the sort of thing I want to get involved with.

If the advert is to be believed and you get first dibs on UK bases, then expect to be fully ostracised by the existing workforce and those waiting to come back to the UK as newly upgraded commanders. Between the number of people using REPA and joining IALPA, and the others who are leaving, does not leave many other people apart from FO's who have not been fully indoctrinated yet. The fact they Storm are offering 10 Euros per hour BELOW the existing rate given to Brookfield Captains should indicate what a perilous state of affairs the company is in, and the contempt to which they hold the workforce.

Of course, perhaps Ryanair DID offer more (not likely), and Storm are creaming off more as their cut, but then you need to look at the whole setup.

The whole thing stinks.

doniedarko 24th Dec 2011 10:24

It's interesting to see lots of Ryanair guys on here say "DON'T JOIN RYANAIR". I want to to hear from any pilots out there who would consider joining Ryanair and why. Almost three years ago a quote from senior management was "we have hired everybody worth hiring".....So where will the new DEC's come from!. I can fully understand if a pilot has no job and needs to work. A Ryanair job is better the no job ...just about. Although many Ryanair Brookfield contractors would have earned more on social welfare over the last 3 months than did did at Ryanair...(oh yeah you are not entitled to any social welfare as you are self employed and this in turn has helped ryanair avoid paying conributions). It should also be remembered that there was a very high attrition rate among NTR dec's last time around. No TRE/LTC lower standards for a DEC when high standards are expected of our Captains (just for the record the numbers getting into BA and Emirates demonstrate the integrity of the training department unlike the pikey bonus hunting management).....So please tell us why you want to join Ryanair ...the low pay airline....the Non existant Terms and Conditions airline...the airline everyone loves to hate (especially the employees ..sorry drones)....Tell us please !!

IALPA and proud :ok:

Callsign Kilo 24th Dec 2011 15:53

Yes, I do wonder.

The last round of DEC had its fair share of guff. Guys with 1000s of 737 hours. Alleged training qualifications, backgrounds in both short and long haul operations. They weren't exactly cherished by the training department! Now Ryanair is not without it's faults, far frigging from it. However I for one am glad that some standards remain somewhere in this operation. Going forward, I hope this remains the case. I for one can't see anyone of any reasonable standard applying for this position. As doniedarko so rightly states, our beloved management claimed that they have hired everyone worth hiring!

If this recruitment doesn't go to plan, there are no more dice to throw for PB, DR et al.

doniedarko 25th Dec 2011 09:17

Just as a footnote ...O'Leary cancelled the Christmas party years ago in the name of cost cutting !. (550 million profit this year!). This year the miserable b**tard could not even bother to put up the "Thanks for all your efforts Happy Xmas " message on the internal company website. I really think Ryanair begrudge having employees or at least having to pay them :E:E.....and in an effort to be balanced an fair I have worked for RYR for a long time and you are always paid on time and the correct amount !

Happy Christmas to all.....now join a union:ok:

widered 25th Dec 2011 11:14

I think what you say donniedarko is very evident. There has been no usual christmas message from any of the management this year that spend their time beating us into shape all year.

It couldn't be more evident that they despise the pilot group for existing and especially that we made an effort as a group this year to be treated in the following year with fairness and with proper conditions not 28k a year for a pilot that has spent about 100k on training over a period of about 2-3 years.

ORGANISE YOUR LABOUR PEOPLE! IT IS YOUR HUMAN AND CIVIL RIGHT!
IF YOU DON'T EXERCISE YOUR RIGHTS WHAT ARE THEY GOOD FOR!

JOIN IALPA AND MAKE NEXT YEAR A YEAR OF SOLIDARITY!

a proud IALPA member

Callsign Kilo 25th Dec 2011 12:37

What they despise is what it has cost them. Crewroom chit chat mentioned a figure of 500,000 last summer in out of base and off day payments. As more left, rostering plugged more holes. Now the cat has been let out of the bag. Some poor bastard has had to saunter into MOL's office and tell him he is ****** for Captains. I'm sure he is also aware of the pilots attempts to unify via REPA and IALPA. Christmas message.....he'd lace our hot waters with scianide if he could.

go around flaps15 25th Dec 2011 12:54

God you are full of the Christmas cheer callsign!

Johnny Tightlips 25th Dec 2011 13:07

Happy Christmas to MOL and Co. Enjoy it because it will be the last good one you will have. The sh1t will hit the fan next year and the shareholders will have you out on your smart cocky arse:D

RHINO 26th Dec 2011 09:36

two things strike me,

number one, it might say UK but I don't believe it. (read their website)

number two, REPA and IALPA need to point out to folk that all they will do by accepting these positions is enrich Storm McGinley. The structuring of this offer is heavily weighed against those who accept it. You could end up owing them or Ryanair money at the end of each month.

Good luck if you do...you will need it.

Flyingstig 26th Dec 2011 11:14

Widered, I assume that in pursuit of a stronger union you are at very least a company rep if not a union official.
If conditions in Ryan are so appalling I would expect to hear calls for action (strike).
One must assume that people who are considering what are clearly poor contracts are in dire straits. There are a lot of people out there who are unemployed through no fault of their own. They need to feed their families and pay the bills. 64 a week jobseekers allowance won't go far!
You vociferously advocate that they join a union. If they do, what will your union do for them? Will it put food on their table? Will you activate the union members in your company to support them.
Or will you be faced with reluctance on the part of those who are on better T&Cs,not wishing to jeopardise their position? (I'm old enough, and been in the job long enough, to be cynical!)
I've seen how other pilot unions have behaved in the past, perhaps you and
your members will surprise me this time.
Surely you must have enough union members in the company now to really put pressure if you wanted to? Perhaps it's time to demonstrate to those you wish to recruit what your solidarity can achieve.
Good luck to those in work, and to those who are not, don't give up!
A safe 2012 to all.

wisecaptain 26th Dec 2011 11:17

Looking at the Storm advert on website 'airlinepilots.com' the figure is well below the 135Euro. they are stating a figure of 112.23 .Is that Euro? they are showing 60/hr . Surely not??????
I can only imagine this is attractive to pilots on Emb or Crj or Business jets and want to get on heavier jets.

pilot999 27th Dec 2011 07:25

Another Christmas spent at home with the family. Just like any other day really. Never been so happy .

widered 27th Dec 2011 08:06

Flyingstig you raise so many points in one post that it may be difficult to cover all of them but I will try my best.
Firstly I am not a union official or a representative of IALPA, I am simply a Ryanair pilot who has been here long enough to understand the divisions between management and its employees or 'disguised employees' and the vindictiveness and ruthless nature of the way they treat their staff.

Ryanair operate their employee cost base on the basis that they use individual bargaining, we all have seen evidence of this. The divide and conquer method works better for them, we can see that in the recent sackings of pilots in their power display.

'You say that if conditions are so appalling in Ryanair why do we not hear calls for strike'.

Well firstly we do all the time on REPA however their can be no action without a strong majority of pilots joining the same union hence my calls for people to join and exercise their basic human and civil rights to organise their labour.

You say 'what will the union do for them? 'will it put food on their table'

The union is its members all we are looking for here is a fair working enviroment and decent conditions not to be pickpocketed by the company at any oppurtunity.
Of course the union won't put food on your table although I remember cases where they have. They will help you achieve collective barganing and all the benefits that this entails for its members, Ryanair's so called collective barganing on non elected ERC's is non existent and is a puppet show.

Pilot999 I wouldn't gloat so much that you got home for Christmas we have seen so many people who were not in a union being targeted by the company in a power display that failed by the way, people who have never been on REPA either.This company is ruthless and you may find yourself looking for protection from the same people that you dismiss so easily. A decrease in one pilot's terms is an attack on all our conditions and the future of everyones conditions can be seen in the new contracts for Captains.

My thoughts this Christmas and New Year is with Paul Ridgards family and the family of the 15 sacked contracters, Will you live your life always looking over your shoulder from an unfair employer or stand united with your colleagues for your rights?

JOIN IALPA

ORGANISE YOUR LABOUR! EXERCISE YOUR HUMAN AND CIVIL RIGHTS!

Push to talk 27th Dec 2011 15:38

widered is very right! What many dont seem to understand is that Ryanair is also setting the future standard for the rest of the aviation industry. Other airlines copy elements of what Ryanair is doing. And you cant blame them. Ryanair is making 500 million profit in times of economical crisis.
People outside Ryanair dont realize the pilots struggle in Ryanair might one day influence their job as well and some pilots inside Ryanair dont seem to realize that although they know they will leave Ryanair some day that not fighting now might later still bite them.

Im not a big fan of unions at all, but come on, whats the alternative? The union is the lesser of two evils for sure here.
Some pilots in Ryanair keep quiet and dont support the union idea because they have what they want, like a base thats suits them, decent money, etc. But will this still be there next year, next week or tomorrow? And who will stop Ryanair from taking it away or closing a base? Therefore unity and a union is the only solution to put an end to Ryanair's illegal and inmoral practices. In my time in Ryanair it never ever got any better. They pretended it did, but if you look it didnt at all. And if the pilots wont do anything it will never change.

Forge the metal when its hot and it seems the metal is warmer than ever now ;)

It seems Ryanair's game is coming to an end as they appear to have overplayed their hand and the funny thing is that they dont seem to even know what is still coming, because many pilots are hired somewhere else but havent resigned from Ryanair yet. The exodus wont stop! It only started and wont stop. And all that management is doing now with getting DEC's in, messing even more with the leave system and screwing with the BRK contracts will open the gates even more. Guaranteed! And also the possiblity with airlines in the Middle East possibly opening for DEC's in the future might turn Ryanair's bad dream in a total nightmare. Im no rocketscientist, but you only have to observe and you see what's going on quite clearly.

Ryanair wont accept a union without a fight ofcourse and will make things maybe even more ugly for a while, but who says they wont do that anyway and then for ever? If you take the pain now the future is more bright. If the pilots dont do nothing then you leave it up to Ryanair how your future will look.

Pilots in Ryanair, high to low, brand new cadets, BRK pilots or not, JOIN IALPA or its sister unions asap and stop the abuse and deterioration of your terms and working conditions.

Good luck!

pilot999 28th Dec 2011 08:10

If you have a Ryanair contract leave is available all months

16024 28th Dec 2011 10:54

No one at RYR is self employed by any realistic or legal definition, but yes they have the right to withdraw thier labour, and the might to do so under the protection of a union, and yes they would do so in support of their colleagues, including the one whose contract can never be renewed.
At a time when the effect would be felt most.

Push to talk says:

Im not a big fan of unions at all
And:

a union is the only solution to put an end to Ryanair's illegal and inmoral practices
Which is it, then? Nice or nasty?
This is the whole point of a union!! It's not a sunday school social.
Why are you not a big fan? If you have lived a sufficiantly privileged life so far, not to need the help of a union, then good for you.
To deny the benefits others have gained in the past from their unions, and only to accept those benefits when it is your own safety or livelihood that is at stake, well, I'm holding back here....
I think NIMBYism is the kindest phrase.

visualappr 28th Dec 2011 12:15

Hi guys. I have been following this thread with great interest. I fly for a so called traditional airline with unions by the way. I'm overfllled with joy to learn that ryanair may/will have problems with its workforce. As has been already correctly said... your cy is setting more and more the standard for the working conditions (salary, annual leave, scheduling, benefits) as we have to compete with you guys. Now, i don't mind competition but I do mind if some CEO, CFO or whatever is throwing away everything generations before us have been fighting for and have achieved for us and generations to come.
You want to return to medieval times and the feudal system ? Continue this path and you'll be there before you know it. Don't think however you'll be the landlord... We'll all be "poor peasants" :ugh:

Happy newyear to all of you !

Mikey1979 28th Dec 2011 14:10

Ryanair & Storm McGinley
 
Hi guys called Storm to see if they have UK bases (F/O at the mo but thought I'd give it a go anyway) The lady there advised all bases with Ryanair is as per client requirements so no guaranteed UK base. She said as they are company registered in the UK the website defaults to UK on the advert. She was verry sorry about it. Just thougt I share the info- she would not give me anymore info as I do not qualify.....:-(

judge11 29th Dec 2011 01:12

I think that the debate on whether or not the Ryanair pilot group should unionise has been done to death on these fora. The fact that the conclusion has been that they should and yet they haven't done anything to combat the downward spiral of their own T&Cs and the cancer it has spread to the boardrooms of other airlines, is for yet another thread.

So, to bring this thread back onto topic; does anyone know, or is prepared to divulge, exactly what is on offer with this Storm contract.

Since the downturn, many jet-rated pilots have been frozen out of what 'market' there has been by not holding the golden Airbus or Boeing type ratings that now seem to be the be-all-and-end-all for any career progression in the industry.

Despite the dire warnings from those already in Ryanair, yet clearly not so dire as they are still working there, this offer, whatever it may be, may appeal to some who are prepared to suffer short term pain in order to open up the opportunities that a Boeing type rating offers, particularly in the middle and far east.

Shaman 29th Dec 2011 07:42

Mikey1979,

Just thougt I share the info
Thank you for sharing the informatiuon - that is exactly what Pprune should be about!

RHINO 30th Dec 2011 06:19

OK, so now it is confirmed it is not for a UK base what exactly what is on offer...

Flyingstig 30th Dec 2011 08:05

Widered, PPTT. Thanks for the reasoned responses. I sympathise with you and take your point, as I sympathise with those desperate for employment.
Someone else made the very valid point that you have been trying to get 'organised' for a long time. It should have happened by now, I think.

Ps the 'strident' calls for 'Solidarity' and the slogans, may put some people off. Albeit heartfealt as they are.

doniedarko 31st Dec 2011 10:56

The contract is based in the UK for the legal standpoint but if you read further into the add you see "Contracts (europe). It's fair to say that the rostering system is unlikely to differentiate 'storm mcginley' captains. They will be on the same great European merry-go-round of base tours that many of the other contractors suffer. I do like the quote of "minimum hours guarantee .....Yep in winter you can expect minimum hours ie 0....or maybe 1 day work in Brindisi and 4 days standby ...But on the bright side if your a shareholder at least MOL is clawing back some of the 1 billion euro* he lost by cutting pilots/cabin crew/engineers terms and conditions !! Go Micheal

* MOL fuel hedging cost ryanair close to 700 million in 2006/2007/2008 and his failed bid on Aer Lingus takes it up top close to a billion

Push to talk 5th Jan 2012 19:32

@ 16024,

Both. A union is in this case the nicest one of the nasty. In a job before I was flying for Ryanair we had a union and I needed them when the fleet I was on was phased out of the company. But as I was initially an individual case the union didnt help me at all and although what I was offered was totally wrong the union even said I should agree on what this company offered me. With holding my ground and bringing forward good arguments I had a strong case and I achieved more at the end than what I would have gotten when I would have listened to the union. And it was good for a large group of people that later got in the same situation.

My opinion is that a union is good for a group, not so much for an individual. But thats how I see it through my experiences. Ofcourse people can disagree.

Besides this, a union can potentially endanger or even destroy a company by making it slow to react to circumstances. A union doesnt always necessarily have to be a good thing. But in the case with Ryanair, it most certainly is, especially if you look at what the alternative is; Ryanair management deciding for you! And when I was in Ryanair it wasnt as bad as it is now. I have never seen things get any better in Ryanair and it wont change and they will drag the whole industry down with them unless the management are brought to a halt. And thats where the union comes in. There is no other way.

I can tell you Ryanair pilots work hard enough to deserve some respect from their management and get treated better than they are now.

And on topic; so it is already getting clear that the promised UK base with Storm is not as solid as pretended? My my, what a surprise. ;-)

Regards.

RHINO 11th Jan 2012 13:25

Anybody know of anyone accepting this contract?

kotakota 11th Jan 2012 16:04

Announced today that Paphos will be Ryanairs 50th base in the spring . I am an 800 Capt looking for work , I live in Paphos , how does one go about getting on side ?

judge11 11th Jan 2012 18:01

Anybody know of anyone accepting this contract?...........and has anyone been contacted by the agency yet with interview dates, contract details or whatever?

captplaystation 11th Jan 2012 18:39

kotakota,

Sad to say, if you join , & you live there, in Ryanair terms that probably puts you last on the list !
Actually, it is not that bad, but it IS totally random , for as long as I can remember.

kotakota 11th Jan 2012 19:08

Ryanair sets up Paphos hub - Cyprus Mail

Ok thanks captplaystation , guess I will not bother then , go and work for someone else .

captplaystation 11th Jan 2012 20:18

You can always try, but in my time there, the basing policy was totally random (I was lucky, but knew many who were not). If you read the Ryanair threads on here it seems to be nothing changed. Don't anyhow think they will be short of volunteers for Paphos ;) might be a different story if you wanted Kaunas, although I have grown to like the Baltic lands myself :ok:
AFAIK there have been practically no DEC's for 18mths/2 years, so the only option is this Dodgy Storm deal, which everyone seems to be having no reply from the agency about. I suspect Ryanair were just testing the water "just in case" & there was very little real intent behind this anyhow. They abhor giving money to anyone (Brookfield is very much an "in-house" transfer of funds, is it not Declan ? ) can't imagine why they would want to get an agency involved, they have all the "flexibility" they require, & more ,with the Brookies (as they always said, don't need/want them = don't roster them. . job done ) no need to allow a.n.other agency to take a slice they could filch for themselves.

kotakota 12th Jan 2012 04:08

I have actually received application form , T&Cs etc from Storm , but of course no response to my Paphos basing enquiries ! Just have to make some dosh out of renting rooms to visiting crew !

Shaman 12th Jan 2012 11:42

Kotakota,

I thought you were with Oman Air?

Push to talk 14th Jan 2012 08:55

kotakota,

actually you might be lucky. You wouldnt be the first to get the base which you want as it has happened before that DEC's bypassed long lines of people waiting to move to a base. There is no seniority in RYR, only when it suits the company with something ;)

You can say you will only work for RYR if you get the Paphos base. They probably will say they cant guarantee it and then you say then you wont work for them and hold your ground on this. Its worth a shot as they are short of Captains and in times of need you might just get what you want. But for what price and how long will you be able to take and accept the sh*t from RYR?

To be honest, I would stay away from RYR and look for a proper airline. If you are indeed in Oman, then stay there and dont trade them for RYR. Trust me, I know. ;)

kotakota 14th Jan 2012 17:27

Oman no more ! Exhausted .
Yeah , expect the Ryanair basing issue to put me off . So many agencies and airlines are shooting themselves in the foot by being so obdurate . They seem to think that crew have to be high-handedly dealt with from the off. I want either a summer contract or an 8 on / 4 off arrangment , and to be paid accordingly , but no , you must have 8 and 2 . Hopeless.
Another couple of irons in the fire , so maybe somebody might finally be flexible enough .

captplaystation 14th Jan 2012 19:03

Arik, 4 on 4 off. . . . but :rolleyes:
Rwandair 6/2
The other Nigerian contract 8/2 :yuk:
Ethiopian 20/10 or for those who can't do basic arithmetic 25/12 (Oh ,but first 2 mths work unpaid)
China 8/2 (other slightly better variations available)
India 10/4 (as above)
Korean 19/11 or in agency speak "up to 14 consecutive days a month off" (incl your annual leave & commuting days)
Fly Dubai no realistic commuting , only annual leave.
Oman (the agency told me 8 days off a month but only 1 block of 5 days every 2nd month (really handy to come back to Europe)
Afghanistan (no problem you won't live long enough to come home)
Pakistan (no commuting)
Indonesia ( about 10/2 or 10/3 if I remember)

So many different shades of Brown, not a lot of Green.

Good weekend, and Good luck negotiating with FR (nothing ventured nothing gained, stranger things have happened.)


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