Ryanair/Brookfield new contracts
 

Hi Colleagues :O

In totally new here, so bear with me if this has been posted somewhere else....:ugh:


Just got rumors of the new Ryanair/Brookfield contract, that in case of ect. track violations, breach of night curfew, noise abatement.... that the contractor is liable to pay for that :eek: and if you don not sign, you will be terminated:mad:

Anyone heard similar rumors ?

:D

If you join REPA/IALPA you will have your question answered:ok:

If true this is a new low for FR :yuk:

This liability section has been in all brk contracts since 3 years ago.
This is the sort of stuff we are fighting against you need to be part of a union join IALPA join REPA things have gone way too far there is only one way out.

I would like to see the Brookfield contract.

Is it possible, that any of you could send it to me.

100% discression.

What a load of sh1t this outfit is.

Did the guys in Ciampino get the bill, or did Mikey try & find the owners of the birds ?

Built4speed,

Lets assume that the curfew story is as straightforward as crewdock described (I know it is a simplification to say that in RYR).

Why shouldn't the crew be liable for the fine?

Maybe because the level of fine is set at a figure considered suitable as a penalty to be taken at an operator level, similar figures generally could wipe out an employee financially....the operator can certainly take action against said offender if found to be in error, but i would have thought the correct response would be to undergo any required re-training, assessment and all being well, monitoring of future performance in line with company SOP's, etc.. If more occurences occur, maybe something needs addressing with the crewmember concerned - after all, we are all human and prone to mistakes and are complicated machines in our own right. Oh, and the individual makes nowhere near the profit the company makes, therefore with all i've said before, the company i'm afraid in my opinion have to accept that mistakes will and do happen.

Wonder how the RMT would react if the train companies had contracts which said that train drivers were personally liable in the event of accident etc?

F/O,

You are right, the first line of response to a flight crew error should be a supportive assessment of the facts, and then re-training as required to minimise the chances of any re-occurance. I agree fully with this for errors.

How about willful negligence by the crew? Using this example to illustrate my point (and I am NOT saying this is what actually happened), if the crew knew they would miss the curfew, they were at the end of their duty week and they were motivated SOLELY by a desire to reduce personal inconvenience should they not pay the fine?

If I take the fire-axe to all of the screens in the aircraft should I not be personally liable for the costs?

Is the danger of what I am saying that it represents a thin-edge of the wedge? Probably. Do we (as flight crew) have the justifiable fear that there would never be a process that we could have confidence in to be impartial in judging the difference between willful negligence and an accident? Absolutely, God-forbid that should ever be RYR running that process.

The world is not as black and white as I would like it to be. I have not, to date, heard any reasons put forward as to why that crew, on that day, should not pay the fine. My ears and my mind remains open.

In this case, it would be interesting to know how much this crew saved Ryanair in costs for not having an aircraft out of base in the event of diversion!

Not saying I necessarily agree with the crew not complying with the curfew but sometimes it's cheaper to pay the fine - maybe the Commander made the correct decision based on analysis of the data?

The problem with this line of argument is that it requires us to assess how much commercial intelligence RYR want us to display. I do not know the answer to that question, but I suspect that given we are all assimilated Borg-like into the airline, "not-much" would probably cover it.

In my experience, the handling agents are generally good at answering radio calls. If the crew called them, the agents could then call Dublin and get an answer for them in advance of the approach. I have no idea if this happened. Crews should take 'reasonable' steps to protect their positions.

Trying to argue that the cost and inconvenience of a coach journey, plus an a/c out of base for first wave the next day (cost unknown to the flight crew), versus a fine for an after-curfew landing (cost unknown to the flight crew) would be a difficult position defend in any subsequent meeting.

Wally, I agree entirely.

I was just making the point that, commercially speaking, it might be worth paying the fine. Of course, if the Company says they are happy taking the hit I would want to have that in writing and/or over the radio with witnesses listening!

I'm with Wally on this one actually. It's written ALL OVER the PLOG, and the Airfield brief, that you must NOT break curfew. We are constantly reminded of it. Why then a Captain should take it upon himself to land after curfew I don't know - especially since we have no based aircraft at BVA so I don't think he would have been able to take off anyway.

It's the same thing with noise violations. Whilst I don't particularly agree with individuals taking the financial hit for these "irregularities", I would expect a severe dressing down for said flight crew. We are actively encouraged to report anything out of limits noise wise (LNAV dropped out, loss of comms, etc) to cover our asses when the Spanish or whoever come after us. If you have some reason that compels you to land or deviate, then do so but file a report afterwards and they can't really come at you.

On a lighter note, why not just land in CDG? That's always open ;)

Built,

I have seen nothing on REPA, nor have I heard a single pilot argue that people should not be liable for willful negligence. Do you?

By all means fight for a fair and proper process to protect all parties, and by all means be sceptical about anyone's ability to achieve this, but are you genuinely seeking immunity for all and any of your actions within RYR? I'm not.

If it is printed all over the Nav-Log, and was a destination the Capt was familiar with, difficult to believe they didn't know about the night curfew.
Just to clarify, was he fined for the arrival in BVA , or a subsequent departure ?
If the aircraft arrived & was stuck there due airfield closure he saved them diddly squat, & had he diverted to Lille (or whichever far flung alternate you guys use nowadays) at least he could have subsequently departed. I guess if the curfew applied on arrival he was stuck, if it was on departure wasn't the airfield closed? Also difficult to imagine why, short of him declaring an emergency, ATC didn't advise him of his intended transgresion. Finally if he departed elsewhere with the intention of landing in BVA, & they were a bit tight for time, why weren't they planning for a diversion early on in the flight as the FMC showed an arrival a little bit too late with the attendant possibility to be stuck there ? Handling in BVA were one of the better ones when it came to answering the radio, so difficult to imagine how he could have inadvertently arrived without knowing the possible consequences, unless both up front hadn't read the Nav Log / Airfield brief at all.

As to the fairness of the companies actions . . . . . . what has fairness got to do with it ?
If, year after year, you continually accept erosion of T & C's ,& bury your heads in the sand, what is there to complain about when someone shafts you from behind yet again. The day you guys collectively grow a pair & see beyond the end of your snouts ,scavanging for crumbs in your own personal troughs, will be a sea change for all of us, as historically what happens to you, filters its way down to the rest of us in the fullness of time.
I am long past being surprised by ANY action/conditions RYR imposes on its pilots, this is just another to add to the long & ignimonious list.
If you had all supported Martin Duffy all those years ago, perhaps he wouldn't have to try to support you , in supporting yourself, now.
You are , finally, a sad bunch of sheep, perhaps not individually, but collectively.
Get the flock out of there ! !

Agreed Captplaystation, all very true. Its a horrible set up in Ryanair. Divide and conquer tactics imposed by management promotes selfishness. Short term summer contracts to get home for a while,accepting floating positions 'for the money' which promote a lack of unity,going BRK to earn 15000 more per year while swindling the tax man in iom,gibralter,malta etc,accepting terrible terms because 'im near home'(until the base closes/downsizes),people trying any approach to get a base,plugging man power deficiencies and working off days 'for the money'(ryanair then spew the 'no crewing issues' mantra and don't have to improve the terms because they have 'enough pilots' and can continue the status quo)...on and on and on

Nobody in Ryanair has a common goal.Look at BA for example. Everyone on the same or similar terms as seniority rises. A common cohesive body. In ryanair you have 48 different full time contracts or 'negotiated base agreements'(ha ha), a brk floating contract,an old brk contract, a new brk contract with accountants, a new new brk contract just launched, temporary summer contracts (and then no guarantee to get back to your original base), temporary winter contracts etc etc.

And thats just the pilots. Its worse for engineers and cabin crew. Amazing tactics.Most people are too stupid to see it..not savvy enough for this management i'm afraid. Just the type of people ryanair love to exploit. The needy selfish kind with no understanding of the crucially important word - loyalty. We know modern day corporations have no loyalty towards their staff however to fight this the staff have to be loyal to each other,its inexplicable not to be in this aggressive environment in which we work.

Join IALPA.

Nuff said.

Grow a pair? Easy to say from behind the anonymity of the internet.
Would you say that in person to a Ryanair pilot? I'd like to see that happen...

Ryanair T & c's ...Coming soon to an airline near 'YOU' :=...will they ever find/reach the bottom !

Al Murdoch
 

3 of my best mates are FR Skippers:

1 is an LTC at STN, knows nothing else. thinks it's a good gig;

1 is a Captain in Scotland. More realistic, but can't be bothered to try and change anything, and;

1 is a Captain in the UK Midlands. He's just accepted a summer only base move for 2012 in order to be nearer home. He has no idea if he'll stay in the new base, be sent back to old UK base (unlikely), or move to Emirates. Application nearly complete by all accounts.

They all know that it's a sh1t gig, but for their own reasons won't ever admit it.

Coincidentally, a less than 1 year Brookfield FO has rented the house next to mine this week.

I've just sold my house. I can see house prices falling.

'They all know that it's a sh1t gig, but for their own reasons won't ever admit it.'

You hit the nail on the head Narrow Runway. This is certainly part ( but not the whole ) problem. Proud pilots refusing to admit that their current conditions are vile out of embarrassment or whatever other reason,hence their is no push to improve our plight. The best they can come up with is 'roster is good and reasonably close to home'. Sorry that isn't a career for the long run. Its also not acceptable, in my eyes, to be a contractor for my whole career.Being a contractor for a prolonged period has a detrimental effect on public health/social welfare benefits. A full PAYE workers get far more as the employer pays more than a self employed individual. Self employed individuals are in a lower benefits band.

In most industries contracts are seen as short term 'fixes'.However Ryanair has abused this and created the 'contractor for life' group.

Al Murdoch,

I was one, & frequently said this to my colleagues ( & on occasions had it said to me , from former colleagues in other companies, & others in different careers when they discovered the "reality" of our Ts & C's as opposed to what they imagined) It sometimes caused offence, but most took it, as I did, as a reminder of what we collectively were failing to do, which in fact is probably less to do with growing a pair,more to do with growing up & seeing beyond your own insular little view of life.
As posted above, most know it is sh1t, and a combination of apathy, burying the head in the sand, leaving plans, & short term personal gain vs helping everyone in the long term keeps anything from changing.
Was always thus, & I personally doubt it will ever change, but would LOVE to be proved wrong at some future date.

I always wonder what it will take,& how low Ryanair will have to sink, to enrage people enough to take action, as kids ask " are we there yet " ? ? personally I think you were years ago.

For those of you who have not seen the new BRK contract. You don't realise what the future holds for you. It is by far the worst contract in Ryanair so far, no leave from March to October no fixed roster pattern anything up to 7 working days are outlined in the contract.
It is a scam there is no future in Ryanair for anyone unless we stand up for better contracts.
Its also about being a professional at this stage JOIN IALPA JOIN REPA.ORG if you haven't already.

"no fixed roster pattern" :eek:

About the only thing , thus far, worth staying for.

I always wondered what it would take, maybe this is it ?

Last one out turn off the lights please.

Regardless of cost saving by not diverting the bigger picture is:

Airport shut means:

1. Airlines insurance 'nul and void' and if you happen to break it on landing or taxying in the insurance company will just laugh down the phone when the company puts its claim in.

2. No fire cover.

Nuf said!

Theres a reason why we as pilots cant make it up as we go along.

Say Mach Number, it is a bit of a side -dish to the main topic here, but did they actually land @ BVA when it was closed ? can't imagine that ATC said "clear to land" in that case ? (well they could just have switched off the runway lights )
As an ex (not current) FR Driver I (obviously ) haven't seen crewdoc, surely FFS they didn't land when the airport was closed ? night curfew = one thing, but if it was actually CLOSED ? :ooh: surely not ?

Agreed Built4speed many FR pilots are saying this the gap between FR and its staff or contracters is so big no one ever raises safety issues.

Ever flown into Knock with a scheduled arrival time at precisely the time the airport opens? Ever not landed despite being early?

Is that not the same thing?

BVA curfew bust
 

Before this incident, I recall sitting on the ramp at BVA; awaiting departure. There was a FR inbound from the south, running behind schedule. They were very aware that their subsequent turnaround and departure would possibly exceed the curfew time. It was clear that they were uncertain what to do. A) Land and disembark the pax, then try to negotiate a quick turnaround. B) Land and disembark then turnaround empty. C) Try to get ops to negotiate an extension to the curfew. D) Divert to Lille - which subsequently would lead to disembarking and departing empty or overnighting. Waiting for the pax to be bused wasn't an option due to FTLs. They were clearly looking for some assistance and asked the French handlers to relay a message to Ops. They were unable to. I don't know what their decision was, however it was clear that the CPT was in a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' conundrum. Typical really. Maybe some **** in Dublin should invest in ACARS, instead of heamorging money on sh1te in order to satisfy an overly inflated ego or two!

ACARS. . . phew :hmm: it would have cost something to install it, but H O W much it could have saved them in the long term. :D
Always thought the failure to install it was a prime example of "penny-wise / pound-foolish", would have been invaluable to keeping the show on the road in FR. Major own-goal there.

New Contracts are leaving a lot of people reeling, Realisation of what the future holds in this airline is starting to dawn on many.
These new contracts do not stpulate a home base no fixed roster and anything up to 7 days on 2 days off also no annual leave from March to October.

We should realise our basic right human and civil to organise our labour.

JOIN IALPA for your legal protection, for your colleagues, for your future.

THIS MANAGEMENT FEAR US!

Withdraw your labour on an organised basis.

Watch the Board remove MOL and Bonderman instantly.

Watch the Management be reshuffled. See your contacts rewritten.

The Shareholders cannot dare afford a complete stoppage.

I know it is easy to say rather than do, but you have no choice, otherwise it will just keep getting worse.

I took the easy option and left for somewhere better, was not a difficult choice. It is a truism though, this is of our own making for being spineless and divided.

Good luck.

Remember Paul Ridgard











Anyone of you could be driven to the limit by this shower.

IALPA have already given us a response regarding the new contract, and have advised that their full response will arrive tomorrow. Of course, if you're not a member, than you wouldn't know that would you? :ugh:

Please join REPA & IALPA.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Safe flying.

:ok: