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-   -   Ryanair Captains on 45,000 per year !!! (https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/442295-ryanair-captains-45-000-per-year.html)

Aldente 10th Feb 2011 06:39

Ryanair Captains on 45,000 per year !!!
 
Latest contracts for upgrades to Captain for new bases :-

Basic pay

60,000 Euros pa minus 10 % for the first year = 54,000 Euros

works out at just over 45,000 for a year's salary !!!

And guys are accepting it !


:ugh:

OutsideCAS 10th Feb 2011 07:36

Really ? 45k ? That is not even a decent salary for an FO - guess I can understand why there is such a huge exodus now and why Management are so worried about crewing their summer programme.

Superpilot 10th Feb 2011 07:50


Originally Posted by Michael O'Leary
Pilots are the most cossetted group of employees in the world

Cossetted = pampered, treasured, well looked after, paid etc.

It's been MOL's number one goal since day one to reduce pilot terms/salary to the point where they're on par with those of Bus Drivers. Looks like he's succeeded. :eek:

BlackandBrown 10th Feb 2011 07:51

It's the nature of the beast to accept such an offer. Just because something is offered doesn't mean it should be accepted. You can't blame business managers for making the offer either, it's their job - they probably expected to offer low have a high request from the pilots and end out meeting in the middle. The people to blame are very definitely those aceepting.

Fliegenmong 10th Feb 2011 08:48

OOhhh!!!! Weed 'ave loooved to be payed 45K....Loooxury :{:E

six-sixty 10th Feb 2011 09:06

Tempting to say they've reaped what they've sowed. Looks like finally the old justification for taking the FR a**e rape for prospect of early command on a good salary is finally laid to rest.

Could be that even the most blinkered wannabes now see that buying yourself a job at FR makes no financial sense whatsoever even long term, and MOLs endless queue of victims may start to dry up. I wish I could believe that.

Monde 10th Feb 2011 09:23

This is , of course , basic salary only , so with flight pay , sector pay etc it's gonna be in excess of 70k. That being said, i was earning more than 45k basic as a lowly turboprop skipper.
A pal of mine has just accepted this deal - enjoy the Canaries! Apparently the total Ryr fleet will be capped at 299 a/c for the foreseeable future , and they've got about 265 of these a/c already . So once the fleet and pilot establishment is at 299 by the end of this year (??) , you are only looking at natural attrition (probably loads!) for Ryr recruitment/commands , so he felt that if he was going to do this (he'd been putting it off for over a year!) then now was the time.
This info is second hand , but deffo food for thought.

d105 10th Feb 2011 14:08

Part of the reason why people are accepting this deal is that Ireland has a dual taxation agreement with all continental EU countries.

This means non-Irish residents are able to reclaim all taxes paid on flights that do not originate or are destined in or to Ireland.

This means your total income is almost your take home income.

I can't vouch for Irish residents or UK residents as the latter seem to have different tax deals with the Irish.

7574ever 10th Feb 2011 19:54


So once the fleet and pilot establishment is at 299 by the end of this year (??)
I believe that fleet expansion isn't due to be completed until Q2 2013.

d105 11th Feb 2011 00:19

Thanks for the insult Pressman.

Local governments are not able to track if a resident has received a tax return. If the resident files a proof of tax paid to another EU government that's where the story ends as far as they are concerned.

Using my brain 'n all.

73addict 11th Feb 2011 08:24

d105, I would not agree with your comment on using your brain!! It is one thing to want to play the idiotic game of tax evasion but to then post it on a public forum is mind boggling. Firstly you open yourself up to attack from everyone and secondly wonderfully and blatantly advertise your illegal activities.
Way to go :mad: :D

lederhosen 11th Feb 2011 08:37

I hate to rain on your party d105 but I do not think that is quite correct. It is my understanding that you are responsible for paying taxes where you are domiciled. As pressman points out the double taxation agreement allows you to layoff tax already paid against your home tax bill. However if you have not paid tax on that element of your earnings it is normally taxable somewhere, unless of course you live somewhere without income tax, thus the attraction of the sandpit.

You may well get away with it for a while. But eventually the taxman is going to catch up with you and may well levy an additional fine. It is hardly a secret who you work for and the taxman has easy access to Ryanair pay scales. I would love to be proved wrong as it would make for more attractive job opportunities for us all. Anybody able to provide conclusive proof that these earnings are effectively tax free?

wizzkid 11th Feb 2011 08:37

That 45k would be closer what a wizz captain would make per annum, actually more than the basic salary and not that much less what you can make with sector pay on a normal month, depending on base.

turbine100 11th Feb 2011 08:59

I work in Norway and live in the UK.

As Norway's not, quite EU. They have a tax agreement with the UK.

I complete certain forms and pay social security only in one of the countries. Regarding tax, I actually pay tax in both the UK and Norway. Then use tax equalisation to claim tax back.

I am surprised that if someone lives in the UK and works for Ryanair, they only need to pay Irish taxes. Especially those based in the UK.

Obviously there must be some agreements between UK and Ireland or perhaps EU rules that allow you to pay tax in other EU states, when living in another. Although I am not versus in this and would suspect EU countries you live in, may challenge that in a European court or would be already to stop this.

despegue 11th Feb 2011 11:37

It is still a matter of national legislation of the domiciled country.

example: In Belgium, there is a specific law for flightcrew that tells that the tax authority lies with the country where the main operational offices of the airline one works for are situated. If you live in Belgium and fly for FR, you pay tax in Ireland. as FR is headquartered in Dublin. If Ireland hands you a certificate that you do not need to pay tax in their country as you are not a resident, then that's it!
I know several guys who did this and even got apology letters from the Belgian authorities as they have no right to even request proof of tax payment due to this law.:D

By the way: If you get your uniform, roster and holidays schedule from FR, then you are an EMPLOYEE according to EU legislation, and NOT a self-employed pilot.

zerotohero 11th Feb 2011 11:50

Are they trying to get a slight loop hole in the holiday thing by asking us to request what month and days we want off, as though were saying were not available these days and we are contractors

its by no means making us not employees but little things are quotable if quizzed I guess.

another note on the FR contracts, most guys coming up to command these days are from the time I joined I guess and most on Brookfield contracts, the rate for me is 138 PSBH or 133.50 after the sim deduction

133.5 X 900 = 120150
Yes thats max hours and top line, But personally I don't think its to bad.

d105 11th Feb 2011 13:36

73addict: Point me to the exact line in the exact post where I state I'm involved in such an operation. Don't try, you won't find it. Kindly leave personal insults out of it.

Lederhosen: That is most certainly true. I should have narrowed it down to the taxation system that is applicable to me. In my case that is the Belgian system. As Despegue already stated earlier, that is how the system works in my country.

But seriously guys, you need to calm down. ;)

16024 11th Feb 2011 18:56


If Ireland hands you a certificate that you do not need to pay tax in their country as you are not a resident, then that's it!
O.k. so how do I get the Irish to hand me such a certificate. They only seem interested in picking my pocket. Most months I'm doing well to take home half of the top line. What am I missing, apart from a sense of humour..
(U.K. resident).

Bokkenrijder 12th Feb 2011 12:16

45k per year... :ooh:

Amazing...and then you still have idiots out there touting the wonderful future career prospects of sitting in the LHS of a low-cost airliner.

No matter how far you run for commands on shiny 777's in dry deserts, no matter how much you cheat / use loopholes on your taxes in order to disguise the poor T&C's: you guys are doomed until you get your act together!

The Michael O'Leary's and Carolyn McCall's of this world will continue to cut, cut and cut in T&C's, leaving you with less and less places to run to. :ugh:

d105 12th Feb 2011 16:32

Share some of your wisdom Bokkenrijder. Any concrete ideas on what to do?

flap15 12th Feb 2011 16:55

Start or join a union. Simples. Orange land would be a far worse place without one. The FR boys/girls need to get there act together.

HPbleed 12th Feb 2011 17:16

So simple! Why has noone thought of that before...!!! :ugh:

Bokkenrijder 12th Feb 2011 23:29


So simple! Why has noone thought of that before...!!! :ugh:
Well, actually people have thought of that before, and generally you'll find that T&C's in those airlines are a whole lot better... ;)

d105 12th Feb 2011 23:47

We have a union. REPA has been around since 2004. But how do you handle a company who simply refuses to acknowledge a union. Any schooled in the Irish legislative system who can explain how an Irish company can get away with that?

Stu666 12th Feb 2011 23:48

Outsider's point of view here, but given the average UK salary is approximately 25k, 45k minimum seems pretty reasonable to me. I, for one, would dearly love to be able to earn 45k doing a job I enjoy. I'm lucky if I even earn half that, particularly in the current economic climate.

45k puts you in the top 10% of earners. Doesn't sound bad at all to me. You could probably afford to get a mortgage as well, unlike most of my generation.

taff_lightning 13th Feb 2011 00:51

45K a year putting you in the 10% of earners in the UK is actually a false statistic. I doesn't take into account anyone who is self employed. As a good majority of the most highly payed Brits are self employed you'll find that in actual fact the sum of 45K falls far short of that percentage.

I know this because once upon a time I worked for the company that produced that report.

AI101 13th Feb 2011 01:08

Not saying 45000 is good money but how about all the facts for Eg they also get 24 psbh ( approx 24 x 800 =19200) plus annual leave money of 60 x 29 days = 1740, and also an annual allwoance of 5000 ( to cover medical cost loss of lic INS etc).

When you add these up it comes to 70940 for the year ( sector money based on 800 hours which is around average per year).

Also one thing which most guys will agree is they do have the best roster of 5 on 4 off and back to base every night. (bumer if you commute great if you and family live.around your base)

I am not saying FR is the best but don't think there the worst either.

Stu666 13th Feb 2011 07:58


Compare apples to apples please. GBP45k is about half or less of what 737/A320 captains make at the other big low cost airlines around the world
Appreciate the info.

As an outsider looking in, it does seem that pilots can earn incredible amounts of money.

I'm 29, self-employed and have a good degree in Computer Science. Most people I know, including myself and those older than me, earn anything from 12K (full-time minimum-wage) to about 30K (teachers, police officers etc). There are the odd ones like solicitors who earn fantastic amounts, but they are few and far between.

Very few of my peers have been able to get a foot on the housing ladder without financial assistance from the bank of mum and dad.

To me, and a great many others, 45K is a lot of money and would allow you to live very comfortably. Anything above that is incredible.

That captains are earning 100K+ absolutely blows my mind. Other than doctors and consultants, there can't be many who get to consistently earn those amounts as an employee.

wiggy 13th Feb 2011 10:03

Stu
 

That captains are earning 100K+ absolutely blows my mind. Other than doctors and consultants, there can't be many who get to consistently earn those amounts as an employee.
And the three jobs you list have three things in common:

Responsibility, responsibility, responsibility.

Doctor or consultant (medical ) stuff up and people might well die - worth paying 100K+ to recruit and retain that sort of expertise? IMHO Yes.

Captain of an aircraft - Responsible for perhaps hundreds of lives everytime he/she goes to work, also responsible for perhaps 100 million dollars or more plus of the company's assets. .... are they "worth it"? You tell me.


Eh , Guys . I don't know why you are all talking about 45K , captains earn far in excess of that
...

Every captain in every airline?

HighLow 13th Feb 2011 10:39

Don't Forget your Sunscreen!
 
STU,
interesting post, but are you seriously suggesting 45,000 GBP (53,000 Euro approx) is an appropriate BASIC pay for a Captain of a modern airliner.

With respect, having a Bachelors Science Degreee would not been seen as anything special, many people these days would also have a degree on top of their aviation related qualifications..so when reading your post I do not see this to be relevant...Within our industry, what use is the degree if you are not allowed work in another job at the same time?

Maybe we should discuss a few facts, and let be clear the possibility of the confusion between Pounds and Euros...

Fact 1. The Basic Pay now is 30,000 EURO LESS than my current basic as a permanent employee within Ryanair. (A drop in Basic Salary of 30%)

Fact 2. When you include your sector pay and the 5,000 euro on top of this, as well as (and I stress the words very "BASIC") pay, taking into account benefits, uniforms, licences etc, ALL OF WHICH YOU DO NOT GET WITHIN RYANAIR, consulting with a colleague flying within a legacy airline (and I have seen the paycheck with my own eyes), the ANNUAL difference in Income (after Tax) equates to 70,000 Euro.

Every year you work as a skipper, you are down 70K.
Now consider a Pilot who is your age 29, with hopefully another 30 years flying. It does not take a BSC Graduate in Computers to realise that the pilot is down a total of 2.1 Million Pounds!!!!


Fact 3. With a permanent contract as a Captain, (and before anyone has a chance to have a go I have no unusual additional debt on my shoulders), just a modest Car Loan! , NO bank would give me a mortgage of 250,000 over 20 Years!

Fact 4. It is very niave of you to state "the fact Captains are earning over 100K blows your mind". Take a look at PPJN (pilots job network website), and you will quickly realise skippers for example in Asia, direct entry command on the 747 are earning in the region of 200K per year! Reality check required mate!


Finally, Soon to be Fact. The roster is great, 5 days ON 4 days OFF, thats what is keeping alot of people here in Ryanair, myself included! Changing to 5 days ON 3 days OFF (which is on the way), how will that amazing basic of 53K plus sector pay feel when you only have 1 day off a week after spending the other 2 days trying to get back home.


So STU66, you state you are an outsider looking in, and I appreciate that.
And without any intention to disrespect your points of view, this demonstrates clearly how PPPruNe is open to posts from anybody and everybody, sticking up threads and posts stating 100K is amazing, and without doubt brainwashes a new low-houred pilot, and perfect ammunition for RYR management.

For this reason, I do question the Moderators motive for continuing to allow such destructive posts, discussing the very terms and conditions of thousands of aviation professionals! Any right minded individual would realise, the job we do, flying a commercial jet with hundreds of passengers around the skies, dealing with all the threats that exist, 53,000 doesn't come close!!! There is no verification of anyones identity on here, adding to the fact, this could be anybody (including Ryanair Management who are having a lazy weekend), sitting down in their leather sofa wanting to stir things up!!!

Pressman, you are right, Captains do earn more than 45,000 POUNDS GBP, (53,000 Euro Basic), BUT this is now the NEW basic for new captains. I would love to know (well i know the reason) why no existing captains are going to standup and be counted !!!! Speaking from personal experience, its like pissing into the wind if only a few pilots attempt decide to make a stand against deteriorating terms and conditions...the collective pilot body must make a stand, however management know how unlikely it would be for this to happen.

PB and the other goons in management are scratching their heads as we speak wondering how they are going to fill the flight deck seats with crew for the summer, and at the same same continue to lower the conditions. If this weren't real life, this would be funny! No one is laughing!

************************************************************ ***
A wise man Baz once said:
Accept certain inalienable truths,
---------------------------------------
*prices will rise,

*politicians will philander,

*RYR conditions will continue to fall,

*Young faced pilots will continue to accept these falling conditions,

*Random (ill-informed) posters will continue to post random posts on PPRune,
But Trust Me...RYR are about to get taught a really hard lesson and people are now walking. Summer 2011 Bring it On !

************************************************************ **

Say again s l o w l y 13th Feb 2011 13:41


Appreciate the info.

As an outsider looking in, it does seem that pilots can earn incredible amounts of money.

I'm 29, self-employed and have a good degree in Computer Science. Most people I know, including myself and those older than me, earn anything from 12K (full-time minimum-wage) to about 30K (teachers, police officers etc). There are the odd ones like solicitors who earn fantastic amounts, but they are few and far between.

Very few of my peers have been able to get a foot on the housing ladder without financial assistance from the bank of mum and dad.

To me, and a great many others, 45K is a lot of money and would allow you to live very comfortably. Anything above that is incredible.

That captains are earning 100K+ absolutely blows my mind. Other than doctors and consultants, there can't be many who get to consistently earn those amounts as an employee.
When you have a few years of experience rather than just a qualification, then you also might be worth 100K a year.

At the moment, you're 29 and so have at the most got 7 or 8 years of experience. You are at the beginning of your career.
How much does a junior solictor earn? Naff all is the usual answer.
However, 15 years down the line it's a different matter. One friend of mine is a partner in a big firm and took home 500K last year. Do you think that she's worth that?

Someone obviously did.

Qualifications get you in the door, they don't guarantee you a decent salary. A CPL/IR means nothing more than the opportunity to get a job. in the same way that a Batchelors degree won't get you a good job.
Being an F/O doesn't even guarantee that you'll ever make it into the left hand seat of an airliner, so trying to compare you and your friends current salaries to experienced airline captain is meaningless. You are at an F/O stage of your career and my first job as an F/O paid me 16K, so you're not a million miles away.

You aren't in the same position as a captain, but in a few years time, you might be. You won't be so surprised then about people earning a decent amount of money for what is a difficult job to do well, I'm sure.

stansdead 13th Feb 2011 13:56

Say again slowly
 
To accuse a poster, in a different profession, of not having the experience after 7 or 8 years (age29) to earn 100k is :mad:.

The problem here is the headlong rush to be a Captain in places like FR.

New cadets aren't on the whole, interested in sitting for 10 years as an FO anymore. No, they want a QUICK Command.

The 90's and noughties showed Cadets they can be Captains after 4 years in Ezy and FR etc.

And that's where the rot started.

stuckgear 13th Feb 2011 14:13


As an outsider looking in, it does seem that pilots can earn incredible amounts of money.


Stu666, consider also what it costs to gain the licences required to even start thinking about looking for a right hand seat job.

Say again s l o w l y 13th Feb 2011 14:14

Well, seeing as I'm 33 and know how much I earn, then I know it to be possible, BUT, the vast majority of people in all professions won't be earning anywhere close to that until they have a significantly larger amount of experience.

I'm lucky, I've managed to get well qualified and experienced in a short space of time and I'm in a narrow field where there are few people of any age with the experience I have. So, I'm worth more to my employers and I have the ability to dictate to them my salary demands, rather than the other way around.

I know full well what most people get paid and 100K is a very, very unusual salary for someone under the age of 30 unless they are working in the city.

IF the supposed pilot shortage ever appears, then things will be better for pilots when it comes to pay.

Though there is a shortage of experienced people, which is why places like RYR are throwing people into the LHS so quickly.

I have one friend of mine who is doing his command course at the moment. He's been flying for RYR for less than 4 years. He's very good and will do fine (I hope) but with less than 4000hrs TT he's going to be in charge of a 189 seat passenger jet...

One last thing. When I said 7 or 8 years, I was probably being generous, that's the absolute maximum, most people I know didn't manage to find jobs in their chosen careers until they were closer to 25 and so it's perfectly feasible for a uni graduate to be 29 and only have 3 or 4 years of working experience behind them.

wheelie my boeing 13th Feb 2011 14:49

Whilst the 45k may look good from the outside - don't forget as previously mentioned the COST involved (not to mention the risk of actually paying for training!)

Courses are im guessing around 75k at the moment, plus you need living costs etc for up to two years. It costs in the region of 100k, plus or minus a bit.

Ok, so you earn 45k, you should be able to pay off the debt.... Don't forget that 100k is AFTER tax. So for you to pay off 100,000 worth of debt you would need to earn roughly 200,000 (income tax and NI taken from it would leave you just over 100,000). All of that is FORGETTING the interest involved - it actually costs a lot more!

Putting aside 200,000 gross to pay off your debt is not easy - and thats if you even get a job at the end of training! Many people take the plunge and end up having to give it up as they can't get jobs - so if some pilots get paid well then fair play, if they didnt get paid well what on earth would be the point in taking such a huge risk!

Stu666 13th Feb 2011 15:15

I apologise if I seem naive and inexperienced on the subject but that is exactly what I am. I am offering a viewpoint from someone not associated with the airline industry. You could always ignore me if I seem a bit dumb, but I am genuinely curious. I'm sure there are millions of people like me who would also ask the same questions. Thanks everyone for furnishing me with their replies which has opened my mind somewhat.

By the way, I am not associated with Ryanair in any way, shape or form. Nor am I attempting to pollute the minds of any prospecting first officers . I'm fact I find it a bit scary that somebody is seriously suggesting that a point of view should not be aired on this forum in case it "brainwashes" baby pilots. I am just a normal member of the public posting on a public forum. If it's not here, they are going to hear the same questions down the pub.

Aldente 13th Feb 2011 17:03

From pressman :-

Eh , Guys . I don't know why you are all talking about 45K , captains earn far in excess of that
Maybe, in a "good" year, but what about the past 12 months or so ? Volcanic ash clouds, extensive ATC industrial action in Spain and France, plus snow closures over the winter etc. All of which can make a big dent in your take home pay.

And what about if you had the misfortune to have a medical problem ? Could be months on basic pay (I know of one Capt that has been on sick leave for a year).

The point is that a Basic Pay of 45,000 is way too low ......

stuckgear 14th Feb 2011 08:37

stu666,

that's ok, you've asserted that you are not from the industry so looking at it from an outsiders viewpoint.

Indeed, you wouldnt be expected to *know* the hard facts unless you ask, so ask away, there's a lot of people here that would be more than happy to share the realities of the industry from the inside.

Another point to consider is the actual manner in which the job actually has effect on the personal life of the pilot and his family.

Simply, a pilot rarely wakes every day, leaves home at 0805, to turn up at work at 0900, takes lunch at 1300 to 1400 and leaves work at 1700, and back home at 1815, dinner with the wife tuck the kiddines into bed and off at the weekends...

The working environment for a pilot is very demanding not only *in* the job, but also on the personal and family life.

d105 14th Feb 2011 13:39

Good point there ALLOW. I agree we should be focussing more on getting the basic salary to increase. All additions to the basic pay remain variable. So with regards to peace of mind an increase in the basic pay seems preferable to an increase in for example sector pay.

dkz 17th Feb 2011 06:10

@wheelie my boeing: The thing is ... you will have to pay the loan from salary that's NOT 45k ... that's a CAPTAIN salary, nobody started flying a Capt (yet).


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