The 45K is a complete red herring. As a TRE on a UK contract my P60 was @£120K, most LTCs and line Capts are nudging £90 to £100K and if you work a few days off you can boost your pay significantly.

Remember FR is a productivity based airline ie low basic but high rewards for being at work so high sector pay.

There is one big advantage is that you only pay higher rate tax on a small basic.

Disadvantage is my Final Salary pension which I am lucky to be in (closed in 2000) is based only on my salary not my overall earnings.

Other disadvantage is no fly = very little pay. However FR know this so try to ensure flying hours are kept high. Other wise every would leave.

Can only speak for myself but FR has over 2500 pilots. We cant all be deluded and most wouldnt be here if the money was only £45K. I wouldnt am worth a hell of alot more than that....

Say Mach Number,

Your "I'm alright jack" reply typifies the sort of selfish narrow minded individuals we now have many examples of in Ryanair.

And working days off ?!!! If you and your colleagues continue to bail the company out of the sh1t due to their inability to crew / roster flights to the correct level, you are only making things worse.

Maybe you're another "boy wonder" (as per the Ryanair recruitment web page) who is only twenty something years old, and became a TRE after 500 hours in command or something ridiculous like that. But tell me this, what are your terms and conditions going to be like in 25 years time I wonder ?

It's all me, me , me .....


:ugh:

@ Say Mach Number

There are guys being offered this £45k, thats what the theme is.

FT

(and No, I'm not a commercial Pilot. Yet!)

Come on guys, either you have not read the rest of the thread or you are just determined not to see the facts. The 45,000 is only part of the payment. There is a substantial amount of additional pay based on hours flown. A typical Ryanair captain probably earns nearly twice this. Most importantly if he is any good and wants to, he has been able to do this after only three years as a copilot.

Of course there are caveats and yes things are not improving. But in reality there is the opportunity to make a very good living. Beating up on people and making personal attacks because they present a different view is out of order.

Aldente,

if you dont like the pay,leave! And do like the rest of us who go where the $ is.
But blaming a colleague for your supposely low income because he accepts to work extra days shows you are indeed a sad man.

Guys, the Captains basic salary in Euroland (or Spain at least) has been 60,000 Euros for as long as I can remember. This is not new news!! What is new is the exchange rate to sterling, but I think you'll find it fluctuates.
Add 5,000 to this (in the form of the allowance) and 23,000ish for 800 hours flying and overall, that's not too shabby. Particularly bearing in mind that you'll be taxed on 65,000 of it rather than the whole lot. Cash wise, assuming you do the hours then it's not too bad. Obviously get sick for any length of time and the situation changes - but that's how it's been in FR forever.
The issue mainly is the 10% cut for your first year, the 10% cut if you change base, total lack of benefits of any kind, the lack of a transparent basing policy and the fact that for many they can't just upsticks and move to a foreign country with wife and kids in tow and so have to support two homes. Then try and get back from Southern Spain on a 5/3 roster. There are many other issues with the FR Command than just the money side of things. It's for those issues that most are looking to jump ship. One of the main things that BA, for example, can offer is a stability of lifestyle. Gain a promotion there and you wont suddenly find yourself 2000 miles from home - it makes it an attractive option in the long run.
FR just need to make a few changes that wont really cost them a penny and they can slow, they'll never stop it, but they can slow the rate at which people are walking out the door.
But, they wont. :(

Aldente - Not sure which part of my post suggests the 'I'm alright Jack' response. Have been in FR longer than most and what I said are the facts no more no less.

Have worked my way through the ranks. Have worked bloody hard and have not recieved any favours or a leg up from anyone. By the way thats one advantage of no seniority in FR. Now before the seniority debate starts I am not against it. In fact having a seniority number has helped me in the past in a previous situation.

As for days off. I have not worked a day off in probably six or seven years.

Probably because I dont need the money because the money is good enough which sort of kills off this only £45K arguement. Which is want most FR guys are saying in this thread.

Ps dont forget when the guys are quoting all the allowances and sector pay figures they are quoting net. To get a real fiigure you need to add another 40% to gross it up.

great post

Newly promoted Captain on permanent euro contract= 5500€/month net considering 75 hours/month.
Subtract some sort of private pension,healthcare,LOL and you come up with one of the lowest salaries in the western industry.
Newly hired DEC's on mcnamara BRK contract= 5500 up to 6000€/month net considering 75 hours/month.
Again one of the worst contracts around.

Yeah sure if one doesn't like it he's free to go and that's what many are doing and many more will do as soon as something slightly better comes up.
Not to mention what will happen in a year or so when the old BRK contracts are over for about 700 Captains......

What a load of BS. I took home 102.000 last year. so what if I spent £30 on Two pairs of trousers and a pair of shoes. I also spent £325 on a nice new hand made Italian flight case, Am I bothered ....No!!!!!!! . My jacket is now 9 years old and still in good condition. have fun....

Ok lets look at this for a moment:

5500€/month net = £4,600 / month net

On a standard UK tax rate the pre-tax income required to achieve £4,600 Net per month is £83,000 Gross per year!
(Check it for yourself on this link)

Two points to make:
1) This is £38,000 a year more than the £45,000 this thread is going on about.
2) I can tell you, this is definitely NOT the lowest salary in the western industry.

5500/6000€ is the NET income of a european based permanent skipper, taxes paid in ireland.
5500/6000€ is the net income of a skipper with the new BRK/macnamara contract.
In both cases there is no pension,LOL,medical included.
In the case of BRK guys there are not even tickets for family nor a basic salary in case their base is closed and they are forcefully relocated to another one and not flying for a few weeks.
If you consider the above is for the most productive pilots in the industry (900+hours a year, 25mins turnarounds, walk under the rain to/from the aircraft,pay for your ID,buy your uniform,pay for medical,pay for water and food,pay for sim,pay for type rating,pay for hotel) you can clearly see that the package is one of the poorest in the western world.
Even Skyeurope guys in the east were treated better.

Just remind us what happened to Skyeurope

Sure aerobat: they went bankrupt just like other outfits because , amongst other factors, they had to compete with companies that dodge tax, don't give any benefits, treat their employees like objects, bully anyone who raises their head in disagreement and keep lowering t&c's year by year while putting others out of business.
Now you remind us what happened to Europe when Nazi Germany was allowed to do what they did.

Nazi germany has no relevance in a thread about Ryanair pay so I have no intention of rising to that. I am a Ryanair ( not Brookfield ) Captain though and am quite well aware of the companies shortcomings and also the fact that a lot of rubbish is quoted here by people that do not work for the company. :)

So you are also well aware of the fact that my numbers are correct since you work here.
Also well aware of the other shortcomings I have mentioned.
A little imnsginatipn on your side would have you think about my metaphor instead of bluntly avoiding it.
It's a race to the bottom that we are allowing to happen.

Interesting point dannyalliga! Hmmm let's see, a race to the bottom whilst everybody is looking the other way because they think it's in the interest of the greater good or are easily intimidated to make a stand... Where have we seen that before...? :hmm:
Well, aren't you easily indoctrinated?! Enjoy your future bus driver's salary and T&C's! ;)

Okay everybody, just keep on saying "Jawohl!!" to your corporate masters and then everything will be alright and the company won't go bankrupt! :D

About a year ago Ryanair pilots decided to reject BALPA's advances in the face of outrageous threats from their management. It should come as no surprise to anyone that their Captains are being stuffed from a great height by an immoral and treacherous management. It was within the Ryanair pilots' power to change their lot and they rejected that opportunity. It should come as no surprise to them that the excesses being quoted here are coming to pass. I wish them nothing but good, whilst feeling a sense of deep frustration on their behalf that things could be so much better if they had chosen more wisely.

The only real difference between Ryanair and easyJet is the presence of BALPA. As others will rightly say, things are far from perfect at easyJet and there is much to fight for. Nonetheless, we are in a position where we can fight and have a degree of corporate cohesion as a pilot body which appears to be lacking at Ryanair. That is not to knock any Ryanair pilot, but to make an observation that no man is an island - we will all do so much better together, with all the tensions that brings, rather than facing the battle as individuals where we can just be picked off.

As a pro BALPA supporter I can't agree anymore but what hope do we have when BALPA can't prevent such methods in EZY? How can we trust a union when they let the very same thing happen in other airlines?

When BALPA started I was very optimistic about their chances and the sense of revolution was there, everyone was excited but sadly they had the wrong man for the job. The guy running the campaign just basically didn't know what hit him when RYR responded. He tried to be nice and professional to the biggest baddest bully on the block and was torn to shreads. If BALPA want to attack RYR they need to be a lot more aggressive and have a very strong person that takes no **** in charge.

Although this must come after BALPA prooves their worth and right now they're not, based on EZYs flexiscrew contract. Right now BALPA has lost my confidence. What we need is another union of choice and RMT get my vote.

McBruce,

My sentiments exactly regarding BALPA.
Out of curiosity could anyone tell me the Captains basic (without allowance, sector pay average etc) in Leeds Bradford, East Midlands and Birmingham?
PM's would be very welcome if you don't want to flame this debate anymore.

45,000 UK pounds is a disgrace even with other allowances added.

Its not gonna get any better , but what are managment gonna do to stem a tide of 10 pilots per week leaving/handing in their notices!

If anything 5/3 is a strong rumour! ...the downward spiral continues!! 5/3 will kill off the pilot fraternity on a massive scale!

pretty sure EMA captain basic is 55,000 Sterling, £24/sbh sector pay.

EMA has its own little contract weighting as far I am aware, ready to be corrected.

Try buying a house!
 

If you were earning £70k per year you can get a mortgage of around 3.5x that. So that is say £245,000 from the bank.
Living down south around herts and essex, plus your deposit, you are looking at a nice 2 bed, or ex-council 3 bed for around the £275K mark.
Now lets look at the reality. Banks will only take taxable basic salary. They will not take sector or flight pay EVEN if it is taxable, because it is a variable income that is not guaranteed.
£45K x 3.5 = £157,500 + Deposit = Nice new build 2 bed flat next to Chicago's. Doesn't quite seem the sort of place a Captain with a new family should be aspiring to live. But this is the reality.
I have friends in other airlines that earn more then that BASIC as a first officer. They may not get the massive sector pay, but they DO get DUTY pay of around £5ph for EVERY HOUR THEY ARE AT WORK. That means, if they are out of base, 24 hour pay. If they are in the SIM, they get paid.

Guys, I can only see this getting worse, and especially as the contract workers directive is coming into effect on 1st October 2011. I have no doubts in my mind that all the people on the (old) Brookfield contracts will be pushed off it and onto a FR contract with really bad terms soon. Also, don't forget that the majority of those guys will be Captains as the contract has been in place for some 4 years now.

This is the time if any to make it count. The BRK guys that will be move across need to reject the offer of bad terms and conditions. There are going to be around 300-400 of you, and I can tell you now that is a lot of flights that will not take off if you all stand together and take the stand.

The main problem you will face is the kind of chap I worked with the other day. "I will accept anything they offer me as I have pilot loans and a family to feed. I just need to keep my job what ever they pay"!!
Not turning this into another one of 'those' threads, but things will never change if the guys that are willing to make a stand for the better of everyone, are going to be undercut and stabbed in the back by guys like that.

Jayc, that's a very unfair comment to make, though i don't disagree at all with the rest of your post.

you give an example of somone who, like many of us are constrained by the diminishing state of the industry while trying to put a roof over his family's head and put food on the table and you make the assertion that he is stabbing other pilots in the back ?

If he decides not to accept what he can get and walks are *you* going to feed and home his family out of your pocket?

What's the chances of him getting a better paid position in the UK ? if it was available he would have taken it, you can be sure.

The driving factor is elsewhere, check your PM.

ok, maybe my 'stabbing you in the back' comment was a little over the top, but my point is;
as hard as some people fight, and as much as they risk for the good of everyone as a collective, there will always be others that will move in and take the easy option, regardless of the outcome for everyone else.

If someone is happy to live outsides of their means should anything happen to them, then that is not my fault. Everyone is in the same boat. We all have bills and mortgages, just some of us aren't stupid enough to go and buy a nice new BMW M3 on HP after finishing line training and still owing £100K in loans, and then moan that your not earning enough money when your hours are down for the month.

Anyway, this is getting off the thread. The £45k salary is a disgrace, and I know personally, I would rather not be doing this job and seeing my family earning a little less doing something totally different, than sitting somewhere in europe coming "home every night" to a hotel room and not seeing my family on a fixed 5-3.
Maybe my priorities are wrong, but family and quality of life is more important to me then getting Cosmic Radiation 10 hours a day for £45,000!!

Aiminghigh - Your sentiments are to be applauded but I'm afraid what you suggest is not possible, neither legally or practically. From what I understand, many RYR pilots are not actually employed by RYR at all. Many work via an agency or a local RYR subsidiary. Their contracts vary by country and location and whim and each "contract" has differing terms, conditions and associated national employment law. In most countries, to strike you have to be in a union and that is difficult if you are self-employed. Then you have other problems. The UK directly employed contract guys wouldn't be able to support any colleagues, even if they had union recognition as that is illegal. And so on.

It is important to remember that Mr O'Leary's pilots are as loyal to him as he is to them. Neither owe each other. So when he doesn't pay the going rate, they'll leave. Currently the filthy Pikey has the biggest stick but history has a way of swinging back and forth, so when he has to count on loyalty, goodwill and team spirit his business will be totally and absolutely stuffed.

The same for his passengers. As long as it's (considered to be) cheap, they'll fly. Costs are now so tightly controlled that he becomes vulnerable to fuel price moves. I'm sure dealing with EU consumer organisations will take up an ever increasing amount of management time. Think about how much positive PR and news reportage he gets? Positive events such as the excellent piece of flying following multiple birdstrikes tend to be over-looked. The media is very negative towards RYR so if there is an unpleasant run of events, he might well find it difficult to recover his operation. And imagine being in management there. The feral scum he employs has to have very thick skins because they have to spend all day fighting the rest of the planet.

Now compare RYR to AirBerlin! It would be interesting to see if "Goodwill" is an asset or a liability on a Ryanair balance sheet. Oh, and don't forget, who does Mr. O'Leary fly with on holiday? His airline or maybe someone else... Club World maybe?

€45K to fly for RYR - well you're mad if you take it, but if you have to feed the kids...

Have you gents seen this one? Hot off the Irish Revenue Commissioners presses via the 2011 Finance Bill:


Tax treatment of flight crew in international traffic.

SECTION 16
36. In page 37, before section 16, to insert the following new section:
The Principal Act is amended in Chapter 5 of Part 5 by inserting the following
section after section 127
127B ( 1 ) Income arising to any individual, whether resident in the State
or not. from any employment exercised aboard an aircraft
(a) that is operated in international traffic and
(b) where the aircraft is so operated by an enterprise that has its place
of effective management in the State
shall be chargeable to tax under Schedule E
(2} For the purposes of an arrangement to which this section and section
826 applies. 'international traffic' , in relation to an aircraft, does not include
an aircraft operated solely between places in another state "
An tAaire Airgeadais

It basically provides that staff working on board aircraft that owned by an Irish company are liable to Irish tax REGARDLESS OF WHERE THEY ARE RESIDENT AND WHERE THEY EXERCISE THEIR DUTIES.

In other works, a German working for an Irish Airline who lives in Germany and flies from Germany to the US only might now be properly liable to Irish tax - even though he never sets foot in Ireland. Of course the various Double Tax Treaties might have something to say about this.

It will be interesting to see what happens now in terms of an irish government,If labour go into coalition there is likely to be new employment laws by the end of the year,The labour leader is on the record as saying that he will bring in legislation for mandatory union recognition.If this happens it would change the landscape for Ryanair pilots willing to take the fight back to the employeer.

Effectively you're saying that MOL may be forced into a mandatory union recognition situation by the incumbent government! Labour and Fine Gael are traditionally pro-union; pro workforce.

That would give the entire workforce (not just pilots) a voice for the first time in 20 years....a chance to see a pay rise for the first time in ten years, etc etc. :D

The fact that union recognition will - according to that political leaders promises - come true will turn MOL's blood cold, he will resist vigorously but good riddens if this becomes law!

Looking at what the unions can achieve in BA and Shamrock recently. Its about time an Irish Governemt made union recognition mandatory in the interst of the welfare of all Ryanair staff particularly the Irish workforce.

It will force those :mad:hole beancounters & MOL to consider the welfare of the staff, their work efforts i.e. the highest productive workforce in the industry, force them to acknowledge that gaping abyss between the massive profits/bank reserves that FR have yet the fact that the cabin crew (for example) are on less than the minimum wage!

• Oil approaching 200$ per barrell
• pilots/engineers/cabincrew leaving at an exponential rate to a better deal
• 37 new a/c in 2011
• the new coalition government about to force mandatory union recogntion
• am aviation industry across europe sick of MOLs trick/""deals""
• a low morale across the workforce

none of this bodes well for a manager like MOL who sees his staff as pawns!!

I hope your post comes true WIDERED. Here's to e150,000 per yr for a new captain and not e54,000!

I really hope that you all get status as an employee with the new irish labour legislation... Then you all can join a union. RYR is damaging the proffesion. All of you should of course be an employee with employee rights!

@ BuiltForSpeed
I hear what you're saying - it's a slap in the face - thing is, someone somewhere is gonna need / want the 4th bar that bad they'll take it. If it's the former then that's that, one would have to accept their (as I'm sure they'd admit) rather desperate circumstances.

ah lads come on. have you seen the amount of tax FR pays (prob not as much as it should) but still quite a bit. All new joiners have to pay tax in Irl so box ticked there. With the new legislation you cannot claim your tax back if you live and work in Girona (for example) so Irish coffers are getting some much needed revenue. (I think this is against the double taxation agreements in the E.U, but even so we'll see how it pan's out) My long winded point is FR is a big fish, Irl Inc is broke, so to conclude, all that nice chat from labour about union's will come to squat. But that's my opinion. I hope that I am proved wrong.

If the irish gov try to impose things on Ryanair that hurt too much they would probably up sticks and move head office and re register the fleet to another country that was more user friendly to them. this is what hapened to shipping years ago, that used to be a good job too!