How Valuable Are We???!!!
 

I think the latest evidence of people being trapped in airports, media hype and lost revenue of billions of dollars in just a few days, shows how valuable the aviation industry is to the rest of the world.We (PILOTS) ARE the front line of this industry that is extremely valuable to the world. Notice I used the word pilots, we are not drivers. Whomever started referring to us as drivers, needs to be exhumed from the grave and slapped.

My question to you is...we have been suffering continuing pay cuts and degrading work conditions over the last few years. Once the economy corrects, will we pillow hugging pussy pilots finally get the balls to unite, stop backstabbing each other and strike (for at least a few days) and show management how valuable we are??? We need to stop being doormats.

Does anyone second this motion???

Oh I don't know....
 

I can't imagine paying you anymore for sitting down on the job all day.

I do . . . well, just a teeeeenzy bit.

"Shut up, or I'll throw you in the front of an RB211 while it's on full power."

"Perfectly reasonable."

Turns to fellow slave.

"I had to wait 10 years to be hung the right way up."


I was arround when the decision was made on whether or not to call ourselves professionals. Captain, while off duty and the like. A resounding No.

"We're tradesmen, not professionals." One of my skippers informed me.

To a very large extent, we brought the current state of affairs upon ourselves. However, in a 'trade' where people are willing to P2F, then there's really no hope of busting the statu quo. However, with a prime directive, empowered by the likes of Chesley Burnett "Sully" Sullenberger, we might be ordered to be raised to the level of professionals by our governments. Trouble is, there would only be enough jobs for a quarter of the workforce and only the rich would travel.

arrogant
 

to: aviationluver

Your message shows your arrogance. You base your self value on the world economy, which is a circus and need a reality check. True individual value should be measured by his human contribution to the world, not the financial one.

The majority of pilots who posted on the ash thread, had little mention or compassion for the stranded passengers.

The volcano caused an emergency in Iceland, not in Europe. The mollusk reaction in Europe caused an emergency. The bold move on some CEO's part ublocked this bureaucratic gridlock. Did it ever cross some pilot's mind that maybe WW did this so the authorities would not have to declare an additional emergency because of the stranded people?

Oh, I forgot: for you pillow hugging pussy pilots, the passengers are simple "SLF", right? Next time I board your plane, please buckle up and fly me home; no "pleasure to have you on board b*ulesh*t", ok? You deserve to be a doormat.

Whomever started referring to passengers as SLF, needs to be exhumed from the grave and slapped.

See, I used mostly YOUR words.

Yups pointy bit peeps are important, and then there are the ones dealing with bogus parts and making sure they never come close to aeroplanes, along with tinkering with engines, flight controls etc.

Tell me, without the engineers can you fly? Without the cabin crew can you fly? Without the ground-staff can you fly? Lastly and most importantly, without pax or freight, can you fly?

Get a grasp on reality. Yes air transport has become vital to the world, but pilots are no more the be-all and end-all of it than doctors are of medicine.

Lastly, maybe you would like to check the mean and mode of pay wherever you live. I doubt very much that pilot's pay falls below the mean, let alone below the mode.

(if you don't know what the mean and the mode are, Google is your best friend)

The reality of life as an employee is that just because you are valuable, doesn't make you important.:{

Unfortunately Aviationluver is correct.

If pilots stoped behaving like kids , beeing nice guys and inventing arguments against people like aviationluver , sure we would be much better.

But no...Pilots are extremely stupid.They are not only like sheeps because they are agressive among themselves. They are the first to criticise other pilots when there is an incidnt or an accident.When all over the world is looking to retire earlier, the pilots want to retire later,etc...

You know, after 9 years working for unions ,showing my face thinking that I had my back suported and then finding out myself alone, I decided to work for me. And what was the result??? I more than doubled my salary !!!! I am siting in one of the world top contracts.

Of course I had to move out of my country, sacrifice my personal life a bit, but at least I will retire with 55 or at least have the option of doing so if I decide to.

Maybe I accept a job with a 4000 euro salary just to pay my electrical and water bills and have a laugh everyday of the human stupidity.

Pilots think that as they fly , they are very smart. Most of them are completely unaware that they are flying their lives with all three horizons failed in a stormy night.

A-3TWENTY

If you are unfortunate enough to be in an emergecy situation, where all appears to be doomed, and you walk away from the wreck - passengers first - then you are extremely valuable. For the rest of the day and maybe the rest of the week. You can brush it off saying that this is what you are trained and paid to be able to do. Or you can try and make a stand for a cause, such as Sully.

If you are flying the line, as most of us are, you are basically flying for industry pay standards for your airline`s type of operation. Some get paid more than others, some are senior, some are junior, some are on time-limited contracts, and some pay the airline for the privilege.

If you are made redundant, you are worth about as much as the next fellow in the enemployment line. No, not really, because the next fellow may actually have some sort of education that can be put to use. Pilots don`t have that. We have blown our money on an education that is make or break. Yes, we are stupid. :ugh:

The Buck stop here .
 

I happen to agree that we are under valued for some time now . The problem is that every one is out there for him self .We must not forget that not many professional have to go every six month through a test to keep his job not to mention the medical ? As for the need for engineer and cabin crew and so on its all true but we always get reminded where ever there is an accident that it was pilot error and some times it is , so my dear boys the Buck stop with us like it or not . Thats why we should be valued as we are not only there to fly but to make vital decision which can be seconds away from disaster .

As the paying punters perceive aircraft to be fully automated, potential employees continue to throw money at companies for the privilege of flying and we continue to stoically do our job preventing embarrasing incidents and accidents our value will go ever downward.

Pilots are insurance policies. The better we do our jobs the less we get noticed and the cheaper the aircraft insurance becomes for our employers.

It is not until the $hit hits the fan that we prove our worth. Unfortunately most times the employer will want to keep these incidents between the company, the pilot and the CAA only.

Accidents such as the BA38 and the Hudson highlight, briefly, the background which is Bi annual sim checks, professionalism and experience.

Once the ticket prices begin to go up however all that gets forgotten under the banner of 'money grabbing airlines'.

Will it change? Who knows. While flying remains the cheapest form of transport and the most heavily taxed in the UK with little or no Government funding then I don't see it.

Sadly our industry and our profession are in for quite a few very rough years unless the European aviation council sort out a unified, pan-European standard for pilot training.

Not much chance of that then.

Babylon: Apart from accidents where a maintenance error is deemed the cause and then said engineer finds his or her self up in court, so the buck doesn't really stop with pilots does it? When a pilot gets off the a/c thats the end of it as far as they are concerned, I fit a part and sign for it, I am responsible for the assembly, function and condition of said part as long as its on the aircraft, that could be any number of years.

But what do I know.

One of the reasons that pilots have fallen behind in relative pay is that we have made it all so safe, and apparently so simple. Back in the days when cockpit visits were allowed, the most common remark by punters was, "is that all you do". In the back of his mind was "I could do that".

The only time I got a "wow" was when I had a university professor on the JS on a miserable windy snowy night into JFK. Even getting up to the gate was a task. He admitted he had no idea "all that went on".

This job is one of the few where you are sometimes called upon to manage a number of unpredicted simultaneous problems within very finite time constraints, and sometimes little or no access to outside help. Room for error, close to nil.

One plans the whole flight with possible foreseeable problems before leaving the briefing room, and usually the whole flight goes right to plan; any emergencies are swiftly and quietly deal with so that a JS rider would not even be aware that a problem had occurred and a major change of plan had taken place.

Every once in a while, all hell breaks loose, and one is confronted with something unplanned for, and not covered by any standard procedure. You have to identify the problem, and deal with it sight unseen so to speak. And you have to get it right.

Thats what airmanship is about, but is hard to explain to the average punter (and politician) (and beancounter)

The Buck stop here .
 

Reference to your comment ( buck doesn't really stop with pilots does it?) What I meant is once we take responsibility of the aircraft .If you care to read what my comment ! You will notice that I did agree with whats said regarding the need to have a team of people to get the job done .Finally I do envy the early pilots who just got on with fixing their aircraft and flying it , so they do not have to be grateful for daily checks and the stamp of approval .Enough said I am off flying and you can go back to read your sun news paper.:cool:

Before we get into an 'I'm more important than you' slanging match it would be worth noting that a lot of the BA short haul aircraft are delayed due to requiring engineering checks at out stations.

As BA has cut back it's overseas engineering the aircraft that have been sitting for 6-7 days need checks prior to being handed over to us sky gods.

It is also interesting to note that when the Captain signs the aircraft acceptance form he/she is accepting the aircraft and its engineering state. Thus signing that they accept the quality of the the work of the engineers. Irrespective of what engineering might say or the management pressures if I don't like/accept what I see/read then I won't take the aircraft. I've done it before and probably will do it again.

We all need the check in staff, ground handlers, ground staff, IT people, sales, etc. etc. etc. This job has never been a 'One man band'.

Back to the thread, we are all worth whatever the company will pay/accept to replace us. Much as people like to harp on about how much their house is worth, in reality it is only worth as much as someone else will pay for it.

Good luck.


Edit: Forgot to add, if you really want to see market forces at work then have a look at the BA vs BASSA thread in the Cabin Crew section. There is a bunch of workers who are trying to prove they are worth twice as much as the market rate and failing miserably.

@aviationluvver

" think the latest evidence of people being trapped in airports, media hype and lost revenue of billions of dollars in just a few days, shows how valuable the aviation industry "


I think your post is hideously naive, Based on what you are saying, suburban train-drivers in rush-hours ought to be more highly-paid than pilots.

Try thinking rather more deeply before your next salary review.

Grrrrrr :mad:

It's a dog-eat-dog world . . .
 

aviationluver: No. Because there are many more pilots than airplanes, and too many would-be scabs, and even more wannabes who are willing to fly for food and to pay for jet ratings. :ooh:

Unfortunatley the wheel turns and the earth revolves.From what I have read, in the not to distant future, freight planes will be fully automated , controlled from the ground ,and I immagine that people carriers will follow in the same way.Its impossible to halt progress.At least passengers will always demand a personal service that cannot be replaced by computers., so you could always become cabincrew.:{

Never forget that by definition half of all pilots flying are below average. :ok:

I can see 3 main factors contributing to the pay situation:

Governments pulling out as shareholders: in the good old times, most major airlines were government backed and subsidised. For most airlines, those times are over and they have to operate more or less profitably. Who's salary shall we cut first? Management? Don't think so...

Low cost airlines: if they sell the same amount of seats for less money, they have to save somewhere. Since they are 100% private companies, someone wants to see a profit. Who's salary shall we cut?

Compared to 30 years ago, a much broader spectrum of the population is able to afford to push their sons / daughters through to frozen ATPL with 737 rating. Prices for that are almost comparable to that of studying at university. And you save a lot of time, so the kid will earn money a lot earlier...
And banks grant loans so easily these days. With more and more people becoming pilots, more and more people know someone who has just started to fly and want to do the same.

Since the pilot's job is to about 95% passion driven, the companies can get away with pushing down the conditions & salaries ever further. The MDs and CEOs are in the game for the buck, not because they itch to call 'set max power, please'. In order to get those guys warm and comfy in your company, you have to fork out the appropriate amount of money. If not they go and become MDs of some toothpaste brand...

Unite pilots? It's easier to unite factory workers, since so many of them work together on the same floor, every day. In our office, there are only 2 at a time and one sits right there, where the other one wants to be asap. Prime back stabbing ground.

Much apart from SSTR, P2F and our general inability to agree with one another, let alone unite behind a common purpose, how about coming at it from the bean counters' perspective:

We're paid for what we actually do (when things go according to plan, which, happily, they generally do), rather than what we're capable of (when things go badly wrong, which, even more happily, they increasingly don't). So while things go according to plan we get paid an ever decreasing pile of peanuts. Anyone really want to reverse that trend?

aviationluver:

Quite right! A driver has to actually control his/her vehicle - your aircraft are driven by my software 99% of the time. :ok:

To get back on topic. From what I see at work here at the right side of the volcanic ash plume, and from what I used to see when I lived and worked in the UK, pilots are their own worst enemies. (Generalizations accepted).

Younger pilots will do anything, and accept anything thrown at them by the operators, just to get a seat on the flight deck. In the US now, some first-year FOs are barely above minimum wage (and it's a pretty low minimum here compared to the UK).

More experienced ones will do anything and accept anything that the operators throw at them just to move from the right-hand seat to the left-hand seat.

But I don't blame the pilots, I blame the flight schools/"universities" who grab the money and churn out wave after wave of eager pilots into an already saturated market. If you have furloughs at one end of the spectrum, where's the sense in flooding the other end with new talent?

For every new recruit who comes out of ERU and the like, your value, Mr Captain, Mr First Officer, decreases accordingly.

It gets even stickier when you consider the increase in retirement age from 60 to 65, and the fact that the value of pensions have been flushed down the tubes with bankruptcies and the recent economic collapse. Pilots who were looking forward to retirement, now can't afford to retire. So they'll carry on until they reach the mandatory age.

Add to this the fact that aircraft are getting easier to fly (to mis-quote a car insurance ad over here - "so easy a caveman could do it"), and your "value" as a pilot is going down the tubes.

Of course, none of this applies to military pilots, who will never be under-valued. What? Who mentioned UAVs?