Ryanair don't charge their pilots to fly.

They pay them to fly.

I don't have this post you mention, but I personally know of Copilots offering the company to pay for their upgrade training and offered to fly the left hand seat training for their F/O pay, same way as they have already paid for their F/O RHS training.
Fortunately, this case was not accepted by the company due to pressure from the union, but it shows that it happens and that those who buy their typerating as copilot are willing to go further with this.

And I too know pilots who have done private deals with management.........and those deals were accepted. Some of us lost our jobs and the ones who paid are still flying.

The Journey to the skies starts here, Become an Airline Pilot ? - Home

If anyone wants a good chuckle check this out, Two pay to fly students; Tens of spelling mistakes in the homepage alone.

What a sad state of affairs - and how many real bmi FOs didn't get the chance to develop their skills and get flying pay because of this scheme?

And what job did these 150h line trained kids get? I see their job site is empty.....

Job Forum - The Journey to the skies starts here, Become an Airline Pilot ?

Also tell the journo to contact BALPA - Carolyn Evans - as she will have lots of info.

How are the pilots who have bought the right seat going to move up into the left seat with no PIC on type? If seniority doesn't get you there any more, either because the companies don't last long enough, or they only hire DEC's with 500 PIC (which they must have got at another carrier or "parker penned"), how do you get your first common jet type command. It seems inevitable that airlines will start to sell this experience so that people can get over this unfortunate "catch 22" situation.

I'm fed up of hearing people blame the new cadets who are "prostituting themselves". They've just paid £70k for training and now they are facing an industry in crisis. They have the choice of paying an extra 30k for a type rating or refusing to do this on point of principal. I suppose they can then enjoy their clear conscience as they stack shelves at Tesco and contemplate repaying there wasted 70k initial training.

How about a bit of respect and encouragement for these up and coming aviators who are the victims of bad timing. The assumption that they are all blowing Daddys money so they can impress their friends with their jobs "flying shiny jets" is rediculous and oh so patronising. I suggest that sort of person is in a huge minority.

Agreed, and unlike any other trade (which is what it is), the qualifications are perishable. If you don't get a job, in two years you won't be able to get a job without some very expensive retraining. And most employers want you to be current (or recently so) on type.
What is needed is some clear, enforcable, universally recognised legislation which makes it illegal to turn a cockpit seat into a revenue seat. Until we have it, pilots will be forced to pay to play, or leave the industry.
We need a commercial pilot's licence to fly for airlines. The implication is that pilots are paid to be there.

Surely you mean majority?

Are there more people in a huge minority or a tiny minority? I don't know... Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that in my experience, people who go throught flight training without a worry about the cost or are doing it to impress their freinds with a cool job, are few and far between.

cheakymunkie

I was a victim of bad timing - 9/11 was right in the middle of my training! However I have never paid a bean for a type rating, nor sold myself short either.

I will admit that the industry has changed considerably in that short space of time, yet paying for a type rating and working for a packet of mouldy sweets is not the only way of getting a foot on the ladder. I did not carpet bomb every airline but I targeted a few turboprop operators and worked hard to build up contacts and get myself known and get invited for a interview. I Instructed and flew Turboprops and then moved onto Jets then got my command and became a Line Trainer by the time I was 26, so the old 'apprenticeship' route worked very well for me personally. It still does work! ;)

Do I regret taking that path - not in the slightest. I know that I have already seen the best days of my career which is alarming to some extent yet I now have the chance to leave the airline industry and move into the corporate world. I feel somewhat relieved, since I feel the business aviation sector is less likely to resort to the 'dirty tactics' that seem to be so widespread in the airline industry.

Don't let the buggers grind you down and hold onto your cash! :)

Ah poor things need to pay another £34k to get a ......
 

No they don't need to pay!!!!!!

They need patience and perseverance and character not the flash in the pan X factor, zero to hero if you can get a loan response. They need encouragement to try flying something other than an A320 simulator. Like a year in Africa or working at a Flying Club to gain hours and contacts.

I know a professional pilot who took 8 years just to get a CPL (in the days when you needed 700h minimum). It took him 2 years to save enough for a PPL. He did the postman, welder, stacking shelves jobs and he managed to get a grant to pay for £1k towards training. Now he's a Captain with over 5000h of excellent worldwide flying experience.

I agree totally and the old chestnut of 'that does not pay well' no longer washes really when you get paid peanuts after investing serious capital for these so called 'schemes'. (Some one pass me the sick bag please.... :yuk: It won't be long until pax need to pay to use one of those either :})

My other half is a 'tea lady' with the Orange Order and she is embarrassed to talk about how she and everyone else in the cabin earns more than the cadets!

So tell me. What about the people who have passed selection with an airline, not with a cheque book, but good old interview and sim check ability, and have now been waiting for years (whilst working menial jobs to pay the bills) for a shot at the RHS only to have one of these pay to fly chaps jump the queue. You expect me (and the many others) to respect them?

You're saying they are the victims?! Give me a break. :ugh:

Paying or no pay/Slavery/Prostitution,etc...
 

Hi Mister Geezer,

I think it is a good idea that pilots should have a "black list" of airlines that ask their cockpit crews to fund their entry into the company either by:

1. paying in advance their type rating or,
2. having it deducted from their salary or,
3. imposing a sub-scale salary for an extended period of time.

Indeed, even flag carriers impose this "sub-scale" salaries for up to two or three years to recover training costs!...

In the end, no matter how the airline does it, it always comes out the newcomer's pocket. Since training is part of an airline operational cost, it should be paid by the airline and never to be paid (in any form, see above) by the pilot.

I understand, on the other hand, the airline's concern for the newly hired to come in their airline, take a free type rating and then scram to another one. Then, the airline should be allowed to recover its costs. Logical.

Therefore, a type bonding should be the only reasonable solution and should be limited to two ot three years in time, no more. And not 5 years, like we tend to see nowadays...

It is time this aviation prostitution stops. If you want to pay to fly, go buy yourself a private licence and enjoy flying! If you still want to make a career out of it, never accept to fork out the dough. Let your conscience do the right thing and boycott these unscrupulous airlines from taking your parent's, bankers or your money to do the job that make them do profits.

Wow. I could only imagine the size of that list. It would stretch halfway across the Atlantic.

I understand your principles completely. But, the industry has changed into something quite repulsive in the last 2 years. It will never go back to how it once was. Unfortunately, the self funded Type Rating is here to stay. Do I agree with this principle...no way...but it is a fact of life in today's forever changed aviation landscape. I'm telling you, airlines bonding a new hire are like a dinosaur....extinct.

Principles and idealism are great.....except they don't put bread on the table.

do you think spending £105000 is bread on the table??????

I was talking strictly about buying the Type. I have 4000 hours tt and Typed in 4 different jets....but one of those jets is not a 737. So, can't go the DE Capt route nor am I considered a cadet (since there is no need for me to spend thousands on ratings I already have....that doesn't make me too appealing to the airline or the training centre). So where does that leave me? Out in the cold, brutha.

In Germany there have been cases going to court for type ratings / repayment / bonding of type ratings.

The Federal Labor Court, which is the highest labour court in Germany, has decided in 1994, that the value of a type rating is binding for maximum 1 year.
All agreements that bind the employee for more than 1 year are void.

The decision is based on multiple facts, including the fact that a type rating is only valid for 1 year and must be renewed after 1 year.

The text of the judgements can be found (in German) at BAG, Urteil vom 16.3.1994 - 5 AZR 447/92 and BAG, Urteil vom 16.3.1994 - 5 AZR 339/92

The same judge has also decided in the first sentence, that a Copilot has usually the status of an employee and not of a self employed, as he gets his roster from the company and has to obeye the orders of the Captain.

Since these are sentences of the Federal Labour Court, these decisions are binding for all Labour Courts in Germany and may be referenced to.

Type Bonding illegal
 

i like this...please go on, somebody any input about this?

TheWanderer: Thank you very much for this information. I wish my German language ability was a bit better because I would like to read the ruling.

To clarify my previous post:
The type rating concerned was a Boeing 737-300 type rating.
The cost of the rating was contractually defined as 80.000 DEM (before the Euro, converted to Euro it is 40.903,35 EUR.)
The judge's sentence says that a bonding up to 1 year is acceptable, but not more than 1 year.

lpokijuhyt - German translation
 

Try using the translator. www.babelfish.yahoo.com. Copy and paste the web address, select the languages (to/from) and there you go.

It misses a few words, but you can get the gyst.

Van G

The cadets coming out of training now didn't know it would be like this when they started training. They are desperate, many of them have massive debts, and they will grab any opportunity they get.

I understand what you're saying, and I think the scheme is shocking. I didn't post on this thread to tell people to feel sorry for them. I posted as I found some of the stuff I read on here quite offensive. A friend of mine has recently got his frozen ATPL and is reluctantly considering this option. All I'm saying is don't blame the player, blame the game.

Ipokxxxxx

Why would an airline take you on with 4000 hours -

Especially when you refer to them as scumbags

HR - have done a good job here and eliminated the .........

We want quality and not quantity in your case.

By the way Ipokxxxx

4000 hours and 4 type ratings ain't great value no matter who's paying the bill.

another stupid comments.
we want quality, ahaha!!! wrong, they want MONEY!!!
HR have done a good job... HR has nothing to say as money decides who will have a foot in the cockpit.

we want quality!!! Mouahahahah! please stay away!

http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...eply_small.gif

The end is not all that near, but...
 

As a newbie on this forum I felt that the posts to date have been accurate and kinda scary. I'm a yank and we have been having similar probs on this side of the pond. The only saving grace (although it scares the SH*T out of the airlines) will be the age 65 rule finally catching up with them. Then they'll have to start hiring and training folks at a rate that will make their heads spin and their balance sheets run red. They'll also have to bring back those incentives to keep folks on property, but they won't have a choice. No tricks no, exemptions, no exceptions.

Then and only then will all of these "nice people" start to feel our pain. What's more if the new FAA proposals finally gain traction at some point in time, even the regionals will not be able to go after any one out of flight shool or one of these training academies (which are as close as you can get to pay to play since a lot of them run these so called certificate factories) since the new hiring mins tack on the requirement for a boatload of hours and an ATP.

What happens on this side of the pond will ripple outwards (the airlines would have hoped that it was the other way around with some of the aforementioned cost cutting schemes currently in play in the EU) and its effects will be felt far and wide.

As of now we have deal with them having their boots on our throats. I'm a recent furloughee with a regional airline that was driven into chapter 11 by our management types (guess who was asking the bankruptcy court judge let them keep their bonses?).

Until then keep yer heads down and don't take any crap!

FRIA:

I find your willingness to put me down really childish. You don't even know me.

Man, I feel sorry for you. If you are that ignorant, you are truly a lost cause. Don't you get it big guy? The airlines accountants are not concerned with quality (as you stated). Do you think Oxford will promote an integrated ATPL student or modular student to the front of the pack for the airline interview? Geee...which one results in more profit for both the airline and the training organization? Buddy, the HR's movements are controlled by the accountants. Get it?

Hey Ipokxxx

Sorry mate don't mean to be offensive.

Just trying to make the point that FR don't owe anyone on here a living. And contrary to popular belief on this site, it's not that easy to make the grade. As you know things have slowed down a lot lately and so has recruitment in Ryanair. With regards to training they have better success from freshly minted "cadets". We all know it's a revenue stream, but in fairness to Ryanair they haven't milked it as much as they could have, and only recruit what they need for operational purposes.

cheakymunkie

I appreciate what you are saying but bear in mind that this has to be the last option for anyone with big debts!

It is the same as asking your bank for another mortgage when you are struggling to pay the one that already exists!

"Hello Mr Bank Manager. I am in serious debt but I would like to try and sort it out but getting myself into even greater debt. Oh.... by the way I don't have any idea as to when I will be able to pay it off."

It is totally laughable and that is exactly what this farce is - laughable. It is not an 'opportunity' and please please persuade your friend to not embark on such a scheme. In years to come he will be very grateful that you talked some sense into him.

Paying to fly (Work)...
 

Quote: "The cadets coming out of training now didn't know it would be like this when they started training."

1. Then why doesn't the flight school or academy tell them exactly that as they walk in the door? There are also plenty of Aviation & Aerospace Intelligence and Economic info available in the papers and on the web... Your banker or, at least, your garantor should know about this before handing you the big check!!!

Quote: "They are desperate, many of them have massive debts, and they will grab any opportunity they get."

2. So now what? Getting into more debt is the only solution??? Look, when a Doctor or a lawyer ends his studies, is qualified but inexperienced, does he or she begin to practice by immediately handing out a big fat check to his new employer when joining the team? Don't think so.

Conclusion:

Look, I think the German Gov. has done the rightful thing by limiting the type bonding to one year. (Read thread #103) Other Governments should act in the same way, starting with the US and their food-ticket paid pilots.

Airlines like any other companies have to stop making money out of their employees and pilots now must just start putting an end to this spiraling effect of funding their jobs and working for free.

You young cadet just fresh out of school, do you remember the best way out of a spin? Then why keeping the spiral motion going, if you know what I mean...

And to you experienced guys out there reading this, inside your collective agreements and labor unions or not, just act within your airlines to stop this trend as well. It's not just because you had to pay your way in, that everybody else has to go through the same as you. Bloody act.

In the end it affects you and your future carreer, as well.

List of " Pay-to-Fly" Airlines update
 

Just wondering what the list looks like by now.

Wouldn't it be easier to just make a list of which airlines that just normally pay for their pilots training :confused:

I saw mention in this thread that easyJet Pilots should get together and strike - why do they need to strike?

Can't BALPA put a case together and take the airline to court over this practice? The Pilots don't really need to get involved here. Yet.

While they're at it, BALPA should take the airlines to court over the ridiculous bonds we have to abide by also.

Someone needs to set a precedent, it's long been talked about in many a flight deck, what would happen if such-and-such was taken to court. With all the money members pay to BALPA, they should take the lead in both these cases.

Indeed they should but be honest with ourself, 45% or 55% of them they will go bust. They won't fly anymore due to bankrupcy. Some routes are so hard-fought that airlines have an option of just 1% to make money. That means few seat of difference between to make incomes or to make debts.

List of "Pay-for-work" airlines
 

Quote: "Indeed they should but be honest with ourself, 45% or 55% of them they will go bust. They won't fly anymore due to bankrupcy. Some routes are so hard-fought that airlines have an option of just 1% to make money. That means few seat of difference between to make incomes or to make debts."

If an airline operates with a 1% margin profit, then let them go bust. They don't deserve to be in aviation business. Let the real and truthful competiters take over their routes and hire their pilots with the right contracts to start with.

The other problem is that, as humans, we are all greedy. Pilots included. Sometimes airline unions go a little too far in their demands. But when airlines ask their pilots to pay for work (read abovementioned threads), that's just plainly :mad: unlawful.

Where is that list?...

I suspect the answer to this is 'no' and I doubt that it is due to lack of motivation, they have substantial membership within EZY who are one of the leading PTFers. It is more likely to be because there is no case to answer, all practices being adopted, whilst distasteful to you and I, remain legal. Those who PTF enter a legal agreement with OAA or CTC willingly, the relationship between the the trainers and companies are legal commercial relationships and I have read no evidence of industrial malpractice due to this being suffered by existing employees. It would be ideal if someone could find the silver bullet to fire to stop this odious and insidious practice but I doubt it has yet been made. On another thread it has been suggested that TCs should refuse to train those who PTF but no union could advise or defend that as the TC would then be in breach of contract.

I think that if it is ever stopped it will more likely be due to safety concerns at a European level or European labour laws and this is possibly where BALPA has a part to play.

Be resonable !
 

The thing we have to think about is return on investment, if an airline EMPLOYS you and pays for your type rating they should be able to ensure that they get some return on that investment.
A training bond is an acceptable way of ensuring return on investment IF the bond reflects the true cost of the training and the cost diminishes at a monthly rate over say two years.

The problem we have is that pilots are paying up front for ratings and then being taken on as CONTRACTORS, as a contractor under UK tax law you are required to have more than one sorce of income and be able to determin when you do the work. Now what would be the attitude of Easy Jet (lets say) if a contractor said sorry I am working for another airline today? and did not turn up!

It would seem to me that the best way to shut down the pay to fly thing would be to set the UK tax people off in the direction of these contractors, It is likely that if they find the contractors to be Employees then the airline will have to pick up the tax & IN bill!

Ohhh, finally a brilliant person. If you want to stop this pay to get experience system you have to make it anti-economical for airliners.

This is an option and more useful that to write a simple article probably nobody would read. People are loosing jobs in many areas and some of them don't even afford to get food, imagine if they care to buy a newspaper and read about Mr. Despegue's tears. They would be really sorry for Mr. Despegue unluck, a person who actually started this system by buying T/R and 100 hrs on type :D