Apelorange,

If you dig deeper I think you will find that the ATP thing that went on in AMS in 2008 was setup by J.Curd. If I remember correctly you had to pay £30.000 for his type rating and you would then get line training in EZY

a million miles?
 

RYR were the first EU airline to get the TRSS scheme going - that is PTF

A TR is a requirement for the job and they prefer to take on TRSS rather than TR FOs.

Pay for CV - was the case in 2004-2005

In the UK a LTD company requires registration with Companies House - this costs £ as does an accountant.

Working at Schipol in 2006, I met a RYR newbie who had just paid 30,000E for sim TR.

Compared to pre JAR CPL days this is self employed PTF until you have paid off your TR and interest and are Line Qualified. But paying for legally required licence renewals?!!!!

You dont setup company in the uk. You set it up in Ireland. You dont pay for the CV to be looked at anymore. And yes the SSTR has been there for a quite a while. Not ideal as I said. But the point I am making is that they dont tell you to completely sling your hook after 500 hours or 6 months( unless you dont make the grade that is) and thats down to you.

Cimber Sterling carry out Base Training for EagleJet, unsure about whether they are one of the Pay to Fly mob though.

I was in Burger King not so long ago. With my 'fantastically' created burger came a leaflet asking if I'd be interested in coming to work for said company.
Listed were the benefits of working for Burger King-

-full training given
-uniform provided
-paid holiday
-pension
-flexible hours

......to name but a few! I'll say no more!

Is it not ironic that a few years ago the big joke was that after your pilot training you would be behind the counter at Burger King / MacyD's. Now it looks like the better option!!! Unbelievable, totally unbelievable.

At my last check, mcdonalds did not pay me £98000, and if they did and also payed for my uniform. I'd be off,

Cause you just can't beat a good ole bugger:ok:

Sadly, while our inexperienced colleagues continue to try and shortcut the system because of a desire to fly some shiny new boeing / airbus wonderjet without having to fly less sexy machines this farce will continue. I have found it sometimes very tiring flying with these people though while keen to learn and always good people, have so little experience the pressure put on the commander can be excessive.
The message to you guys who are considering parting with large amounts of cash. DONT DO IT the airlines have a commercial decision to make. Pilots make their aeroplanes fly, when they fly they make money, if they dont they loose money. Its not sensible to loose so pilots are essential.
If all waited on their hands for six months all hell would break loose and these slavery schemes would stop

This is the same sh1t everywhere. With a degree in sciences, computers, etc, you will struggle to find a job. Many guys with 5+ years at university have to prostitute themselves by sending their CVs on youtube or ebay!
So, the sh1t we have in our industry doent mean that anywhere else the grass is greener ;)

Despegue, could you tell us your background and how much you paid to do your frozen atpl training ? how much you paid to do your B737 TR with 100 hours line training with Happag Express???? please answer! :D

Despite Ryanair being a poor deal, i dont believe it to be a true pay to fly scheme.

The common factor of these pay to fly schemes is that they rely on a continual turnover of FO's. Basically replacing eachother, this simply isnt the case with Ryanair.

Going a while back cadets were actually worse off with regards to pay during line training than they are now, so lets not forget that eh.

35 euro per hour line training, and your likely to do 100 hrs(maybe more) in your first month or so;
A. Your cheap
B. Your not much use until your line checked.

So around 3500 euro gross is not too bad to be honest!

I wish you all well in your efforts, but you try telling the 21yr old Joe Bloggs with £100K of his dads money that he shouldn't pay Oxford/ctc and easyJet to fly. Will he listen? They haven't yet!

..and therein is your problem, the root cause of the problem! No matter how much ctc/easy or anyone else charges to fly, you'll need to convince Joe Bloggs not to do it. Can you do that? He really does want to fly that shiny new jet you know, and tell all his friends he's an airline pilot.

Can you convince these people not to continue fanning the flames? Write to the papers but you should also be writing to the students in flight schools to make them understand how they are ruining the industry. easyJet and others don't care they're just looking at the £ signs.

from what i know LOT polish deducts for the initial TR from your pay.

in italy WINDJET, AIR ITALY, and some others I do not recall now

lpok completely and utterly agree with your assessment. I love it how everyone is an expert and likes to see their competitor salary to come down. How about you stand up and be counted for your lot instead of looking over the fence green with envy.
I shall certainly mail respective journo's and also contact my company council.
I know its a political minefield for BALPA but its time we start putting the work in so we can put the hammer down when the financial situation starts improving.

I'm fed up of seeing my job becoming a dogs dinner.
Inactivity and envy wont solve anything.

It's our jobs!
 

The moment pilots pay for line training they are stealing someone else's job, and that is ilegal, I am convinced.

At this stage, I don't give a damn for our prestige, or any other things.
I am just very worried and scared because there is a tsunami of people eager to pay for my job.

Any FO in the world should be scared now. And captains too, because the tsunami will reach them too, sooner or later.

It isn't our profession any more.
It's our job what is at stake.

But no journalists will help us.
Only ourselves can do it. I hope we will do something soon.
When all of us are scared as I am now, surely.
Will it be too late?

"the excellent video on youtube"???
It was bloody awful. And large parts of it total rubbish. It is a sad day if that video passes for campaigning... It was a load of whingeing claptrap with a bad soundtrack. Only 45k a year? Boo-frickety-hoo.... I'm sick of people going on about this. WE ARE ALL VOLUNTEERS. Not only that, we have brought this upon ourselves... The facts are:
Many people want to be pilots;
They are so desperate to achieve this dream, they are prepared to pay to train;
Airlines previously did not realise this;
Now they do.
The only surprising thing about the situation is that they didn't wake up and smell the coffee earlier. Like about 20 years earlier.
I really take issue with this whole "pay to fly" business. Almost all airlines make you pay to fly. I work for RYR and I earn 2 to 3 times that of people in the equivalent job flying a TP for Flybe. Nothing wrong with a TP - just as responsible a job and just as satisfying. But who is really paying to fly? Not me, I'm pretty sure of that.
"Mark my words" - I've marked them alright. Nothing will change.

D O Guerro,

And you think that if Ryanair could find a cheaper way of getting someone to do your job they wouldn't do it?

Sorry, my mistake, Ryanair are the airline the airline that everyone aspires to spend their whole career at.

And lots do stay for life.

A while ago on a shiny jet airliner a young "pay as you fly" pilot was sent abroad for some days flying. CheapAir paid for the hotel but the poor pilot was on a tight budged and food in the hotel was out of his financial abilities. Thanks to CheapAir´s lovely cabin crew he was fed on left over crew food from the previous crew and every crewmember saved a sandwich to keep him alive. Unbelieveable? No. True! It was the day when I knew for sure that aviation was lost.

Sharpclassic,

Ryanair does not make you pay for line training! Im sorry but so many people on this and on that youtube video seem to think they do.

Ok you have to pay for your type rating but once you finish that you are paid to fly the plane. Its Easyjet and the like who make you pay for line training that are the problem.