just a thought, but could it not be the case that Al are shifting their Uk based crews inside a different AOC so it effectively has ring fenced part of its operation so that it has something to sell or rise form the ashes should the DUB operation cease to exist? Could we see DUB base shrink and the UK bases with lower cost base expand? As I said, just a thought!!

As for all the doom and gloom on Pilots and or futures, the market is crap at the moment but it will change, it may take time but it will change. For the record, I enjoy my job, pay is good and I wouldn't get the same time off with the same pay in many other jobs. In saying that we should not rest on those laurels and be determined to keep the pressure on companies to make it better!

according to the last EI internal memo at LGW the 'piggy backing' of the Astraeus AOC is a short term thing while the application for EI's own AOC is approved.

I come back to my originally-stated view that Astraeus are a 2-bit company who are simply union-busting at Aer Lingus. I openly wish them to come to no good and for Aer Lingus to provide their own operation at Gatwick crewed by their own pilots. For ex-BA pilots with massive pensions to take jobs at Astraeus on massively-reduced salaries is simply outrageous. If that applies to Rainboe and his mates, so be it. These people benefitted for a whole career from the trememdous sucesses won for them at BA including the best pay, conditions and pensions in the business. To now knowingly participate in a union-busting ploy by a disreputable company, whilst supplementing the dire salaries with their own BALPA-won pensions is human nature at its disgusting worst. If you are a low-houred pilot needing the money I have some sympathy. If you are an ex-BA pilot who has had a blessed career on the back of all BALPA won for you, I have no sympathy whatsoever. Astraeus's success in this venture is in no one's long term interest.

Aer Lingus are clear competition for my own company, easyJet. Clearly I want them to lose out in the battle that is ensuing. Nonetheless, I recognise their legitimacy and that they constitute fair competition in their own right. We have been unbelievably foolish by effectively providing the lion's share of First Officers to both Aer Lingus and Astraeus for their operation. That is something for our penny-wise and pound-foolish managers to reflect upon in their baths at night - we would have been far more effective in defeating the opposition by not training all their pilots for them and then kicking them out to save a few quid for a few months. Instead we gave our competition a head start by providing top-quality, highly-trained and immediately-available Airbus pilots. Crazy but there it is.

Anyway, time will tell who wins the war at Gatwick - my money is still on the Orange Order. I am not the slightest bit embarrassed to wish that whatever happens, Astraeus are not in the picture.

NSF - if as you say, Astraeus is a 2 bit company then your employer will surely have nothing to worry about from the EI LGW operation.

Personally, I think that you are very wrong. Discount Astraeus and its business model at your peril. It has a low cost base, is a highly flexible operator and boasts amongst its management some highly talented individuals. Interestingly, unlike your own organisation, most of them are pilots!

Time will tell, but some thought that an economic downturn would invalidate the Astraeus business model (ACMI operator) - this has proven not to be the case with a fast growing fleet and record profit levels, how many others in our industry can say that at present?

NSF,

What about the majority of pilots at Astraeus who have no connection what so ever with BA, many of which including my self are raising a young family. I find the fact you wish my employer to be out of business and consequently my 3 year old children homeless, to be absolutely deplorable.

You should be ashamed !

Who do you think has forced the national carriers to lower their terms and conditions ? Yes that will be Easyjet and Ryanair in the UK. Yes it was a very nice place to work before your low cost ventures came along but thats progress for you. At least more jobs became available to those outside the cosy clubs. I have never wished anything untoward on any airline inlcuding EasyJet. The more job opportunities the better.

I have met over a third of the new airbus pilots joining Astraeus and have yet to find anyone, or hear any rumours of anyone, with the slightest connection to BA............

The fact is Aer Lingus have asked Astraeus to provide a service without which is it very likely that the company would have gone under.

Very well put 8che! :ok:

Expect NSF has never been unemployed.

NSF would never say such things if he had. :=

It is especially hard with children to bring up. I hope he never has to experience it.

I fear you chaps may have missed the point of my argument. Astraeus are being used as a 'stalking horse' to make a direct attack on the trade union arrangements currently in place at Aer Lingus. This is a straight union-busting exercise to put pressure on Aer Lingus crews. Aer Lingus are our direct competition but I recognise they are a bona-fide company doing a normal job. Astraeus, however, have been employed by Aer Lingus management to do the exact job that their own crews should be doing.

There are a couple of illusions here that should be challenged:

1. Aer Lingus 'need' the Astraeus AOC - they do not as they have a perfectly good one of their own.

2. Astraeus are creating jobs and should therefore be thanked rather than derided - the problem is that Astraeus are simply taking the jobs that rightly belong to Aer Lingus pilots. This is simply an exercise at shuffling the pack with no extra jobs being created. The problem with the shuffled pack is that it is a whole lot cheaper than the original one!

I would very much appreciate a 'real' Aer Lingus's pilot perspective on this issue. I am stating it as I see it but if you see it differently then I will gladly bow to your knowledge on the situation.

Many new jobs have (and continue) to be created on the Boeing fleet which makes up the vast majority of the operation. The contracts are diverse and worldwide.

Can you not see how disgraceful it is to wish we were all unemployed with the consequences for our family.

As a fellow professional aviator I ask that you take those specific comments back please.

NSF has, elsewhere, professed to having `the ear` of management in Easy.
I really hope for their sake, and the sake of their pax, that this spiteful, vitriolic, distorted and unbalanced attitude (unprofessional?!) is not indicative of the general view within Easy.
I suspect that the majority of the pilots employed by Astreus were staring into the abyss. F/Os let down by NSFs own `glorious` company, and Virgin to name but two. Captains who were enjoying a happy career in Excel?
NSF, beware! In my experience of many years in this industry, what goes around really does come around! There are few here today who would give you the time of day! .......let alone a job! no matter how good you think you are.

Now get back in your EasyPram!

p.s. dont bother to preach that I have missed your point! ...I`m not interested in your point. That was made totally null and void by your attitude.

MCDU2, a very cogent and heartfealt personal view, worthy of respect regardless of agreeing with it or not!
You say your location is UK, if it is, and not a smokescreen, then does that mean you have already taken `The Shilling` and moved to the AL UK contract?

I think NSF's assessment is pretty much bang on the money. 100 pilots about to be made redundant in Dublin. The AOC is a smokescreen for a straightforward union bust. Why else would they choose a third rate gypsy airline?. Management have admitted as much at a meeting in LGW 2 weeks ago. Pilots in Dublin offering to work in LGW on local terms in preference to redundancy have been told that work going to AEU instead. Management want to keep the bases flying while Dublin strikes. It's a race to the bottom facilitated by AEU and EI. So before you jump down NSF's throat listen to what he's saying, it's the only one with a bit of clarity compared the horsesh1t you read here mostly. ( & mcdu2 obviously!)

Sorry Stand 31...its about EI survival. From what you seem to be saying, let's all join the dole queue together.

The simple laws of economics will dictate as they always do. RYR and EZY have changed the face of this industry and now in the recession it is coming home to roost - the legacy carriers must change quickly or disappear. Give credit to EI they are making every attempt to survive in this desperate market place

sad old gits
 

This company is making money...and maintaining employment. How much money is your lot losing? There are 8 A320s being added to the fleet and recruiting FOs as well as Captains. Good luck Mario.

Im afraid i agree with NSF !! The practice of the ex BA guys milking the best terms and conditions when they were at BA and then staying in the industry after there retirement from BA and effectively subsidising jobs at astreaus stinks. it effectively lowers the t &c s for all of us in the industry.

it is exactely that - a shuffling of the pack - effectively a scabbing of jobs from aer lingus pilots. not a good situation for the wider pilot community.

good luck to those at aer lingus

Who are you talking about going under here, Aer Lingus or Astreaus? Any reason why the whole operation has been pushed backed from early November to 19th November now? Could it all be a smokescreen? If a deal is struck between EI management and staff on a cost saving plan it may be that no Astreaus or whatever they call themselves crew ever fly any of these routes. Aer Lingus have made no secret of the fact that they want to add more 320's to the Gatwick operation. In my opinion the final arrangement will be that they will end up piggy backing for the winter on the Astraeus AOC and come summer they will lease these extra 320's off Astraeus by which time they will have their own UK AOC. What will happen to all the recently recruited Astraeus pilots then? The aircraft will at that stage fall under the Aer Lingus umberella.

Hmmm Lard.. Don't think so! Only one of the A320 is leased to Astraeus, unless the position has changed, the others are already Lingus A/c.. or so rumour has it...And the EI AOC.. at least 9 months away.. See my post 19th September.. And A320 drivers, well Monarch Guys working with Parc at Olympic, getting two wages.. TCX guys furlough.. don't think its all the so called "elite" from Easyjet, infact some " Orange" highly skilled FOs ( NSF) didn't make the grade...

I'm afraid you are barking up the wrong tree directing these comments at NSF. Whether you agree with his sentiments or not, a more pleasant and selfless person you could not hope to meet, certainly not in our profession. He isn't wishing anyone at AEU out of a job, it is the underlying principle of what is going on that he is attacking.

And so far, every respondent who doesn't work for Astraeus seems to agree with him.

SAM2M - Trust me, I have been unemployed and down to my last few quid with a wife and 2 kids to support. As I said, I do not blame the individuals for taking the job initially - particularly as the initial contract was shrouded in secrecy (why was that I wonder?) and people going to interviews were not told who they would be working for.

Flyingstig - at no point have I ever 'professed to have the ear of easyJet management'. I have had one discussion with a particular manager on a particular issue. With his permission, I put the details on a forum here since it was relevant to a large number of our employees. Not quite the same - but, hey, why ruin the story with the facts? But as you say, you are not interested in my point. Maybe you should become just a tiny bit interested in points and facts as so far you have not actually managed to contribute anything useful to the discussion.

Kirks gusset - being able to write in sentences is quite a useful skill. If I was you I would practice that for a while before sending out your CV again.

Rainboe - I am honoured to be described by you as a 'nauseating individual'. Maybe the truth hurts - in your case it certainly should.

8che - no one wishes you all unemployed. I wish an end to the specific union-busting work of your company in connection with its dealings with Aer Lingus. That would mean that Aer Lingus pilots fly Aer Lingus aircraft on Aer Lingus salaries negotiated by Aer Lingus's elected pilot representatives. Is that really such a lot to ask? That would mean that your company loses the specific contract related to Aer Lingus - no more and no less. I am not embarrassed to wish that upon your company. It is entirely reasonable and I am disappointed you cannot see the logic of my concerns. Your company is knowingly and willingly taking part in a clear attempt to destroy the power of pilot unions at Aer Lingus. That is totally unacceptable in my judgement.

Back to the main issue then... It appears that this is indeed a simple exercise in destroying the power of the Irish union. I fully accept that current Astraeus pilots had nothing to do with this - this is simply their management throwing conscience out the window to make a few quid at everyone else's expense. On one hand we have ex-BA captains like Rainboe who are enjoying the best of both worlds - a fat BA pension won for him by BALPA and a union-busting, industry-destroying salary from Astraeus to top up his earnings. Nice work if you can get it. On the other hand you have the understandably desperate FOs taking whatever work they can. In fairness to all parties, they possibly did not know what was going on initially - it has taken me a while to get my head around it. Now I do understand it, I see the situation as reprehensible. What I am not entirely clear on is why Aer Lingus unions are not doing more about it. This is the same deal as BA's European operation out of Paris Orly - quite rightly the BA pilots fought tooth and nail to stop it happening. In the end incidentally, that has been a disaster and is well on the way to folding.

By all means disagree with my opinions on this. I am delighted to hear a rational argument that proves me wrong in my assessment of the situation. Do not be fooled that Astraeus are somehow providing jobs for pilots - they are actively taking jobs away from another company. The pack is being shuffled but at the end there will be less cards than when the shuffle started! This is not fair competition in the sense of the battles between say easyJet and Ryanair or BA and Air France. This is straightforward opportunism by Aer Lingus management who are using a difficult time in the industry to shove a wedge into a highly-unionised company. I have no problem over negotiations with Aer Lingus pilots resulting in pay cuts if that is appropriate. I do have a problem with unilateral union-busting by an unscrupulous management.

Delighted to hear any rational argument to refute my concerns. If you really feel the need to insult me, just PM me or something - you will feel so much better doing it privately rather than making even bigger dorks of yourselves publicly.