just a thought, but could it not be the case that Al are shifting their Uk based crews inside a different AOC so it effectively has ring fenced part of its operation so that it has something to sell or rise form the ashes should the DUB operation cease to exist? Could we see DUB base shrink and the UK bases with lower cost base expand? As I said, just a thought!!

As for all the doom and gloom on Pilots and or futures, the market is crap at the moment but it will change, it may take time but it will change. For the record, I enjoy my job, pay is good and I wouldn't get the same time off with the same pay in many other jobs. In saying that we should not rest on those laurels and be determined to keep the pressure on companies to make it better!

according to the last EI internal memo at LGW the 'piggy backing' of the Astraeus AOC is a short term thing while the application for EI's own AOC is approved.

I come back to my originally-stated view that Astraeus are a 2-bit company who are simply union-busting at Aer Lingus. I openly wish them to come to no good and for Aer Lingus to provide their own operation at Gatwick crewed by their own pilots. For ex-BA pilots with massive pensions to take jobs at Astraeus on massively-reduced salaries is simply outrageous. If that applies to Rainboe and his mates, so be it. These people benefitted for a whole career from the trememdous sucesses won for them at BA including the best pay, conditions and pensions in the business. To now knowingly participate in a union-busting ploy by a disreputable company, whilst supplementing the dire salaries with their own BALPA-won pensions is human nature at its disgusting worst. If you are a low-houred pilot needing the money I have some sympathy. If you are an ex-BA pilot who has had a blessed career on the back of all BALPA won for you, I have no sympathy whatsoever. Astraeus's success in this venture is in no one's long term interest.

Aer Lingus are clear competition for my own company, easyJet. Clearly I want them to lose out in the battle that is ensuing. Nonetheless, I recognise their legitimacy and that they constitute fair competition in their own right. We have been unbelievably foolish by effectively providing the lion's share of First Officers to both Aer Lingus and Astraeus for their operation. That is something for our penny-wise and pound-foolish managers to reflect upon in their baths at night - we would have been far more effective in defeating the opposition by not training all their pilots for them and then kicking them out to save a few quid for a few months. Instead we gave our competition a head start by providing top-quality, highly-trained and immediately-available Airbus pilots. Crazy but there it is.

Anyway, time will tell who wins the war at Gatwick - my money is still on the Orange Order. I am not the slightest bit embarrassed to wish that whatever happens, Astraeus are not in the picture.

NSF - if as you say, Astraeus is a 2 bit company then your employer will surely have nothing to worry about from the EI LGW operation.

Personally, I think that you are very wrong. Discount Astraeus and its business model at your peril. It has a low cost base, is a highly flexible operator and boasts amongst its management some highly talented individuals. Interestingly, unlike your own organisation, most of them are pilots!

Time will tell, but some thought that an economic downturn would invalidate the Astraeus business model (ACMI operator) - this has proven not to be the case with a fast growing fleet and record profit levels, how many others in our industry can say that at present?

NSF,

What about the majority of pilots at Astraeus who have no connection what so ever with BA, many of which including my self are raising a young family. I find the fact you wish my employer to be out of business and consequently my 3 year old children homeless, to be absolutely deplorable.

You should be ashamed !

Who do you think has forced the national carriers to lower their terms and conditions ? Yes that will be Easyjet and Ryanair in the UK. Yes it was a very nice place to work before your low cost ventures came along but thats progress for you. At least more jobs became available to those outside the cosy clubs. I have never wished anything untoward on any airline inlcuding EasyJet. The more job opportunities the better.

I have met over a third of the new airbus pilots joining Astraeus and have yet to find anyone, or hear any rumours of anyone, with the slightest connection to BA............

The fact is Aer Lingus have asked Astraeus to provide a service without which is it very likely that the company would have gone under.

Very well put 8che! :ok:

Expect NSF has never been unemployed.

NSF would never say such things if he had. :=

It is especially hard with children to bring up. I hope he never has to experience it.

I fear you chaps may have missed the point of my argument. Astraeus are being used as a 'stalking horse' to make a direct attack on the trade union arrangements currently in place at Aer Lingus. This is a straight union-busting exercise to put pressure on Aer Lingus crews. Aer Lingus are our direct competition but I recognise they are a bona-fide company doing a normal job. Astraeus, however, have been employed by Aer Lingus management to do the exact job that their own crews should be doing.

There are a couple of illusions here that should be challenged:

1. Aer Lingus 'need' the Astraeus AOC - they do not as they have a perfectly good one of their own.

2. Astraeus are creating jobs and should therefore be thanked rather than derided - the problem is that Astraeus are simply taking the jobs that rightly belong to Aer Lingus pilots. This is simply an exercise at shuffling the pack with no extra jobs being created. The problem with the shuffled pack is that it is a whole lot cheaper than the original one!

I would very much appreciate a 'real' Aer Lingus's pilot perspective on this issue. I am stating it as I see it but if you see it differently then I will gladly bow to your knowledge on the situation.

Many new jobs have (and continue) to be created on the Boeing fleet which makes up the vast majority of the operation. The contracts are diverse and worldwide.

Can you not see how disgraceful it is to wish we were all unemployed with the consequences for our family.

As a fellow professional aviator I ask that you take those specific comments back please.

NSF has, elsewhere, professed to having `the ear` of management in Easy.
I really hope for their sake, and the sake of their pax, that this spiteful, vitriolic, distorted and unbalanced attitude (unprofessional?!) is not indicative of the general view within Easy.
I suspect that the majority of the pilots employed by Astreus were staring into the abyss. F/Os let down by NSFs own `glorious` company, and Virgin to name but two. Captains who were enjoying a happy career in Excel?
NSF, beware! In my experience of many years in this industry, what goes around really does come around! There are few here today who would give you the time of day! .......let alone a job! no matter how good you think you are.

Now get back in your EasyPram!

p.s. dont bother to preach that I have missed your point! ...I`m not interested in your point. That was made totally null and void by your attitude.

MCDU2, a very cogent and heartfealt personal view, worthy of respect regardless of agreeing with it or not!
You say your location is UK, if it is, and not a smokescreen, then does that mean you have already taken `The Shilling` and moved to the AL UK contract?

I think NSF's assessment is pretty much bang on the money. 100 pilots about to be made redundant in Dublin. The AOC is a smokescreen for a straightforward union bust. Why else would they choose a third rate gypsy airline?. Management have admitted as much at a meeting in LGW 2 weeks ago. Pilots in Dublin offering to work in LGW on local terms in preference to redundancy have been told that work going to AEU instead. Management want to keep the bases flying while Dublin strikes. It's a race to the bottom facilitated by AEU and EI. So before you jump down NSF's throat listen to what he's saying, it's the only one with a bit of clarity compared the horsesh1t you read here mostly. ( & mcdu2 obviously!)

Sorry Stand 31...its about EI survival. From what you seem to be saying, let's all join the dole queue together.

The simple laws of economics will dictate as they always do. RYR and EZY have changed the face of this industry and now in the recession it is coming home to roost - the legacy carriers must change quickly or disappear. Give credit to EI they are making every attempt to survive in this desperate market place

sad old gits
 

This company is making money...and maintaining employment. How much money is your lot losing? There are 8 A320s being added to the fleet and recruiting FOs as well as Captains. Good luck Mario.

Im afraid i agree with NSF !! The practice of the ex BA guys milking the best terms and conditions when they were at BA and then staying in the industry after there retirement from BA and effectively subsidising jobs at astreaus stinks. it effectively lowers the t &c s for all of us in the industry.

it is exactely that - a shuffling of the pack - effectively a scabbing of jobs from aer lingus pilots. not a good situation for the wider pilot community.

good luck to those at aer lingus

Who are you talking about going under here, Aer Lingus or Astreaus? Any reason why the whole operation has been pushed backed from early November to 19th November now? Could it all be a smokescreen? If a deal is struck between EI management and staff on a cost saving plan it may be that no Astreaus or whatever they call themselves crew ever fly any of these routes. Aer Lingus have made no secret of the fact that they want to add more 320's to the Gatwick operation. In my opinion the final arrangement will be that they will end up piggy backing for the winter on the Astraeus AOC and come summer they will lease these extra 320's off Astraeus by which time they will have their own UK AOC. What will happen to all the recently recruited Astraeus pilots then? The aircraft will at that stage fall under the Aer Lingus umberella.

Hmmm Lard.. Don't think so! Only one of the A320 is leased to Astraeus, unless the position has changed, the others are already Lingus A/c.. or so rumour has it...And the EI AOC.. at least 9 months away.. See my post 19th September.. And A320 drivers, well Monarch Guys working with Parc at Olympic, getting two wages.. TCX guys furlough.. don't think its all the so called "elite" from Easyjet, infact some " Orange" highly skilled FOs ( NSF) didn't make the grade...

I'm afraid you are barking up the wrong tree directing these comments at NSF. Whether you agree with his sentiments or not, a more pleasant and selfless person you could not hope to meet, certainly not in our profession. He isn't wishing anyone at AEU out of a job, it is the underlying principle of what is going on that he is attacking.

And so far, every respondent who doesn't work for Astraeus seems to agree with him.

SAM2M - Trust me, I have been unemployed and down to my last few quid with a wife and 2 kids to support. As I said, I do not blame the individuals for taking the job initially - particularly as the initial contract was shrouded in secrecy (why was that I wonder?) and people going to interviews were not told who they would be working for.

Flyingstig - at no point have I ever 'professed to have the ear of easyJet management'. I have had one discussion with a particular manager on a particular issue. With his permission, I put the details on a forum here since it was relevant to a large number of our employees. Not quite the same - but, hey, why ruin the story with the facts? But as you say, you are not interested in my point. Maybe you should become just a tiny bit interested in points and facts as so far you have not actually managed to contribute anything useful to the discussion.

Kirks gusset - being able to write in sentences is quite a useful skill. If I was you I would practice that for a while before sending out your CV again.

Rainboe - I am honoured to be described by you as a 'nauseating individual'. Maybe the truth hurts - in your case it certainly should.

8che - no one wishes you all unemployed. I wish an end to the specific union-busting work of your company in connection with its dealings with Aer Lingus. That would mean that Aer Lingus pilots fly Aer Lingus aircraft on Aer Lingus salaries negotiated by Aer Lingus's elected pilot representatives. Is that really such a lot to ask? That would mean that your company loses the specific contract related to Aer Lingus - no more and no less. I am not embarrassed to wish that upon your company. It is entirely reasonable and I am disappointed you cannot see the logic of my concerns. Your company is knowingly and willingly taking part in a clear attempt to destroy the power of pilot unions at Aer Lingus. That is totally unacceptable in my judgement.

Back to the main issue then... It appears that this is indeed a simple exercise in destroying the power of the Irish union. I fully accept that current Astraeus pilots had nothing to do with this - this is simply their management throwing conscience out the window to make a few quid at everyone else's expense. On one hand we have ex-BA captains like Rainboe who are enjoying the best of both worlds - a fat BA pension won for him by BALPA and a union-busting, industry-destroying salary from Astraeus to top up his earnings. Nice work if you can get it. On the other hand you have the understandably desperate FOs taking whatever work they can. In fairness to all parties, they possibly did not know what was going on initially - it has taken me a while to get my head around it. Now I do understand it, I see the situation as reprehensible. What I am not entirely clear on is why Aer Lingus unions are not doing more about it. This is the same deal as BA's European operation out of Paris Orly - quite rightly the BA pilots fought tooth and nail to stop it happening. In the end incidentally, that has been a disaster and is well on the way to folding.

By all means disagree with my opinions on this. I am delighted to hear a rational argument that proves me wrong in my assessment of the situation. Do not be fooled that Astraeus are somehow providing jobs for pilots - they are actively taking jobs away from another company. The pack is being shuffled but at the end there will be less cards than when the shuffle started! This is not fair competition in the sense of the battles between say easyJet and Ryanair or BA and Air France. This is straightforward opportunism by Aer Lingus management who are using a difficult time in the industry to shove a wedge into a highly-unionised company. I have no problem over negotiations with Aer Lingus pilots resulting in pay cuts if that is appropriate. I do have a problem with unilateral union-busting by an unscrupulous management.

Delighted to hear any rational argument to refute my concerns. If you really feel the need to insult me, just PM me or something - you will feel so much better doing it privately rather than making even bigger dorks of yourselves publicly.

Interesting thread, but I must correct you. No one at TCX on a permanent contract is getting furloughed. Charter operations in the winter do not need the same establishment as in the summer hence seasonal contracts. Many will be back next summer and if things have picked up will get permanent contracts.

At the end of the day, pilots need to provide for their families and take jobs that might not be their first port of call. That said, I wish you guys at Astreus the best of luck as I think you are going to need it. When things pick up again, make sure you are quick on your heels out of there.

NSF's analysis is as near to 100% correct as we are likely to get. This is a union busting exercise and if it gets under way will be more vicious than anything seen previously in this part of the world.

Quote: "a more pleasant and selfless person you could not hope to meet, certainly not in our profession" Priceless! Off to school now to learn sentence construction.
Discuss: "Behavior that compromises our credibility is particularly damaging and demonstrates poor leadership skills"

The Final Solution by Herr Muller..........if he suceeds Lufty , BA, etc will be subject to the same kosh type tactics.

Very few ex BA folk at Aeu now, and many of them are only part time. All the new Airbus folk are ex Excel, Virgin, and erm....Ezy, plus a few other carriers but not BA, and they are certainly not retirees living off company pensions.
A320 now on the AOC, and the proving flight had no adverse comment whatever from the CAA. Things moving rapidly ahead on many fronts, and not just Aer Lingus. Care to bet on how many aircraft Astraeus may be operating by next Summer? NSF will be chomping on his orange shell suit. Aeu is also hiring 757 and 737 guys, 6 are up for training this month. Its a good place to work, not the highest paid, nor the lowest by any means, and it still retains the character of a company where you are a name not just a number.
There are still people for whom this counts for quite a bit.
If this sounds like a bit of an advert for Astraeus...well....you could be right.
Africa to the Arctic circle, and China to the east coast USA (and all points inbetween) is our scheduled stomping ground this Summer, along with any extra business that our worldwide AOC generates.
While NSF and the ever diminishing legions of "Pilots entitled to brain surgeon salaries"folk whinge and wring their hands at our Airline business model, may I suggest they are in the wrong job. They should have joined the Post office.

Hooray for Astraeus, Hooray, Hooray, Hooray...

...What a wonderful lot they are. Good on them and their employees for spearheading the downward drive on Terms and Conditions for all Pilots...

Hooray, Hooray, Hooray...

...What you guys who have just accepted the lowest ever Terms for A320 crews in UK have done is to ensure that what you think of as a temporary "stopgap" job will become either:

a) permanently awful terms (because all jobs will be paying this when the upturn comes) thanks to your union busting rush to destroy other people's livelihoods;

or

b) no job at all (because once EI management have finished with your union busting, you will be tossed aside like a used johnny at an orgy) - because AEU will have no work for these aircraft.

I don't blame the individuals. They're desperate.

I have made my point about BA retirees, I won't do so again.

BUT, I AGREE WITH NSF 100% THAT THIS KIND OF CONTRACT UNDERMINES US ALL IN THE LONG TERM. IT SHOULD BE AVOIDED AT ALL COSTS.

That must be an easy comment to make if this career is a bit of a hobby rather than your full time source of income. The root cause of this wholesale slaughter of the terms and conditions is the filling of the right hand seat with 250 hour pilots who are either prepared to pay for the privilege or are happy to accept T&C's that are frankly commensurate with their experience. That airlines take advantage of this complete inertia on the part of the regulator isn't really their fault.

Nobody should be sitting in either seat on an airliner until they at least hold a full ATPL. Then The T&C's would reflect the true market rate, and there would be less of this nonsense. In the USA legislation is now going through the house to ensure that is the case. It needs to happen here as well. Unfortunetaly it will probably take Sky News images of a smoking hole for it to happen, just as it did in the USA.

ditto, a big smoking hole will certainly ensure maximun attention, by then the accountants who now prevail as current managers now marching here and there will be by then retired sitting on their millions, with the sorry fells's not our fault flag.

There are numerous smoking holes on all sides of the Atlantic which were assisted by "fully qualified atpl's", just as there are military pilots with less hours doing an amazing job because of their quality and the quality of their training.
Hours does not equal safety, nor, sadly, does experience, as you should know. Safety is an ongoing process which challenges each of us every working day, no matter what our level of experience.
What I cant figure out is why someone from the US thinks his grass will be greener as a result of Atpl's in seats. It is the quality of the training in the appropriate environment that counts, not 2000 hours in a cessna 152(not trying to besmirch long suffering flight instructors here either!)
The Aeu deal will be good for both Lingus and ourselves and employ a lot of pilots who would otherwise be unemployed.
Airbus operation opens up all kinds of business opportunities for further expansion and thus employing even more staff.
Tell me how evil it all is....go on...you know you want to....:D

Aztruk you :mad:

The jobs being created are being taken from existing Aer Lingus staff.

Any new jobs would have been directly with the company if you did not come in and undercut.

Maybe there should be an IFALPA ban.

Yes, but the first time one of these holes is cited as being crewed by what the public will believe is a 200 hour apprentice sitting in the right hand seat, there will be the inevitable clamour to stop putting the publics lives at risk. That is what has happened in the US, and inevitably it will eventually happen here.

If it is all about the quality of training, then why is it not as an adjunct to the experience requirement, rather than a complete substitute for it? Sorry rhetorical question, it is so that airlines can increase supply and thereby reduce costs in order to give themselves a commercial advantage. If they could register themselves in the Democratic Republic of Congo in order to take advantage of less stringent maintenance requirements and still operate in Europe, I don't doubt that one of the usual culprits would already have taken the lead.

What is so special about 200 hour pilots other than the fact they are desperate, cheap and readily available, that requires them to be flying in the right seat of a commercial airliner? It is not as if there is any shortage of experience in the marketplace. It is simply that if you eliminate this source of airline First Officers, that excess becomes significantly reduced as does the practice of diluting salaries to reflect the use of inexperience.

You are right, in that eliminating anyone with less than 1500 hours (in whatever type of aircraft) will not improve safety or stop accidents happening. However that won't matter in the publics or the legislators perception. Sky News and the Daily mail will be screaming from their pulpits "why are inexperienced pilots paying to sit in the right seat, or being utilized as cheap or contractual labour?"

I am not criticising whatever your airline does. It does this because it is allowed to do this, and therefore the fault rests squarely with the regulator. As this practice has spread throughout the industry so the terms and conditions for career pilots has been reduced. Your company is not valiantly trying to create jobs "for pilots who would otherwise be unemployed" it is doing what all companies do, that being to grow and maximize profits. It is fighting in a predatory and highly competitive marketplace. It is doing what it feels it needs to do, and can get away with to give itself a competitive edge. No, of course that isn't evil, that is simply business. Nevertheless busineses need regulation, and the use of practices that undermine the livelihood of people who do regard this as a full time career isn't going to meet with much support.

It is all probably academic in any event. I doubt Mr O'Leary painted "Say yes to the Lisbon treaty" on some of his 737's recently because of his love for the European Union.

So despite all the criticism, not a single person who disagrees with me is denying the basic facts that I have stated - this is simply a union-busting exercise that brings not a single real job to the aviation world. It merely takes jobs from Aer Lingus pilots. Once again, I invite informed discussion from anyone who disagrees with my take on this to help deliver me from my terrible misunderstanding. I suspect I may be waiting a long time.

That rather depends on how long airlines survive taking on huge losses. In the end they go bust, a la excel, and I'm sure Ryanair are sharpening their knives in the wings as they hope for Aer Lingus to fall over. However that is not the case, because the deal with Aeu will enable them to reallocate resources, cut costs and thus save far more jobs in the long term.
Sorry, but Ezyland, Virgin and everyone else(except astraeus) has cut jobs, cut aircraft, and cut salaries.
We have employed pilots, maintained our salaries, and taken on new planes- and not just the Aer Lingus ones either.
Better to keep more people at less money than no people at all.
When things get better, people will get more money, and they may choose to move on. Good luck to them. They deserve it. In the meantime we are busy employing cabin crew and pilots. Cant see the problem. its the EU, and labour is mobile, as it should be.

Erm, before the scheme ended after 9/11, how many BA cadet F/Os started flying BA jets with 200 hours? And how many of these ended up as the smoking holes you mention? Right people, right training is what matters, not just taking those who can afford to pay for the privelidge.

And no, I wasn't a BA cadet.

None that I am aware of. The point was what will likely happen when an accident occurs that involves a 200 hour pilot, not that it may be caused by the presence of one. The Hamble scheme was very much a graduate and extremely selective programme that came with a highly structured monitoring programme. There was a career progression that allowed successful graduates to embark on a normal B.A career structure and salary scale. Its scope and result clearly wasn't used as a method of shoehorning warm bodies into the right hand seat at low or no cost. It was a very real cost for the company, such that it was eventually contracted out to established commercial flight training schools, with the company bearing the cost of the graduates progression.

"Right training" as you put it, is always what matters, however I cannot see how that should be a substitute for an experience base of 1500 hours and a full ATPL as well. This is a new revenue stream for the companies that have exploited the "Hamble factor" into an art form.

Aztruck, I don't know if this is your primary and only source of income, but I would be surprised that you would be so cavalier in your comments if it was. If you have a pension from another company or another source of income, of course you don't mind working for degraded terms and conditions, who would?

Ok. Jobs for life. They dont exist anymore, although there was a fiction that they once did, along with gold plated pensions, seniority schemes and subsidised staff canteens.
Even the Civil service is about to get its comeuppance, about time seeing as it is subsidised by every other poor wretch that pays outrageous levels of UK tax.
85k a year for an airline Captain seems fair. 100k starts to become a bit daft, though if someone was daft enough to offer ......
Extra qualifications garner more dosh, TRI, TRE, line trainer etc etc just as it should be.
Yes some folk pay more, and seniority often creates ludicrous differentials, akin to those NHS consultants who turn up twice a month in return for vast salaries, swan off in their Bentleys, leaving the Junior doctors to drown in a sea of casualties.
Astraeus is not a seniority based airline, which system is now in any case indefensible under EU law.

When we had a TRTO along the lines that you so disparage, it ran smoothly and provided a steady stream of Pilots to ourselves and many other airlines, most of whom are Captains by now.
When the upturn comes, I'm sure there will be upward pressure on wages, especially for experienced Pilots, and we shall see how many leave to take more money or the perception of a better lifestyle or prestige in working for a Flag carrier.
I'm sure some will, but then again, I'm sure some will see the positive side of staying with Astraeus.
Meantime, more Pilots, more cabin crew, and more aircraft

Disagree with your there aztruck

Why should pilots, who are in charge of hundreds of lives each week, be paid poorly for their job? Why should pilots, as a group, not aspire to a job which can be described as a career? Why do you think 100k for a captain is so ridiculous? Lawyers, accountants, bankers (not rhyming slang), doctors, and any number of other similarly highly skilled and regarded professions pay their professionals 100k + regularly, and apart from doctors any of those guys who have a bad day can go home for a glass of wine. If you have a bad day you'll be providing the world's biggest barbeque for whatever village or town you happen to plough into.

Management would love pilots to be on minimum wage, have no T&C's and have no limitations. They see us a high paid help (I would suggest the same about the managers). If they want to fly 170 people into Zurich on a rainy, sh*tty day with windshear, cloud to minimums and the other regular winter occurrences, they are welcome to try but I have found that management nerve often falters when it comes to actually showing some balls (also, of course, they wouldn't know how to move the seat in the flight deck or 'pointy end', to the uninitiated). They would also have a tough time understanding anything that I'm saying. I tend to find that supreme ignorance is difficult to overcome.

Management, if you are not one of them already, have no comprehension that doing our job well is what keeps the reputation of their airline, what keeps passengers calm during absurd weather conditions, what keeps 'their' (I use the word sparingly) $70 million aeroplane from becoming aforementioned barbeque. They, for their part, are welcome to keep their executive leather chair, mahogany desk and painful egos, but I expect them to respect the people who are the only two accountable for the passengers who pay their salaries. And if they don't I will fight to keep the T&C's which you seem to think are ill-deserved.

I have never disembarked and heard any of the passengers saying 'thank god for the financial director, he did a great job there'.

Yes some folk pay more, and seniority often creates ludicrous differentials, akin to those NHS consultants who turn up twice a month in return for vast salaries, swan off in their Bentleys, leaving the Junior doctors to drown in a sea of casualties.

Can you just clarify your point there? Do you mean the consultant, who started off as a junior doctor, and earned the crappy wages working the long hours doesn't deserve what he has achieved over his career, or that the junior doctor should be paid better and given a better lifestyle (T&C's, I suppose you could call them)?

Of course, if the NHS looked at itself and got rid of a percentage of its incompetent managers who, having no idea of what a hospital needs to run efficiently are of 'limited' use, instead of selfishly protecting its support staff (the non-operations staff, that is...), they would be able to hire more doctors, pay them the money they deserved and give them a good quality of life.

Of course the same goes for the MoD, schools, social care, the list goes on and includes airlines.

Rant over. I may have gone off on a tangent at some point, but I feel better now :O

The issue here is not about BA or EasyJet... Nobody has a problem with a competitive company entering a market place and competing and winning routes etc like EasyJet have done..

The issue is that AerLingus already have an operation in place in Gatwick, they have enough pilots and aeroplanes based there... Astraeus are being used to undercut pay and conditions which are already in place at AerLingus. Have you looked at the contracts for positions with Astraeus at Gatwick? Its all part of this race to the bottom that we have all been dragged into. Aerlingus do not need more pilots to be able to operate the LGW routes, the only reason Astraeus have been contracted in, is to operate routes and aid Aerlingus set up a UK AOC to have a stick to beat ROI pilots with on there terms and conditions.
Why wouldnt astraeus management take the easy cash that comes with such a deal... Unfortunately so many pilots are out of work at the moment in the EU market, so why wouldnt these pilots take the jobs at Astraeus... AerLingus management have spotted the weakness and used Astreus to capitalise on the situation.

The bottom line is
Every Pilot Astraeus hire to fly green aeroplanes from London Gatwick is directly taking the job of pilot in Aerlingus who is already flying these green machines... so when there is redundancy announcements at Aerlingus just rememeber that Astraeus pilots are taking the EI pilots jobs and doing the same work for a lower rate, Airline management are succeeding in pitching pilots against eachother ,its a slippery slope and its gonna turn what was a career into whats quickly turning into a job.

Nothing wrong with paying the going rate for skill and talent.
Fireman, train drivers ,soldiers, nurses, all have the above in abundance and many lives in their hands under far more stressful conditions than the average Pilot encounters on a daily basis. There is a considerable difference in their salaries, and even more variance from country to country for doing the same job.
Military pilots are less well paid than civilians. Are they mugs? Perhaps they have a choice? Many have told me that they consiider civilian flying boring at the side of their Military experience,so perhaps people's expectations of t and c's as you put it vary considerably.
Back to the opening statement however.
How do you calculate the"going rate"? At the moment rates have been pushed down due to the (hopefully) temporary oversupply of Pilots and oversupply of seats.
Honestly, what do you expect to happen? The only way the industry will survive is if commonsense does prevail, and real market forces determine wages and other commodities. There are still gross international distortions created by state support in several airlines which condemn pilots to a life of uncertainty.
Astraeus is actually making sense in the mad world of airlines.

Astraeus are hiring pilots to fly another airlines machines on lower terms and conditions a few weeks before the said airline wants to declare a pilot surplus and make up to 100 pilots redundant, this makes sense to you? It makes sense to an accountant, infact perfect sense on a balance sheet, thats as far as that sense goes though.