RYANAIR CPT vs FOs
 

Its that time of year again,

Well it turns out there was a ‘secret’ ERC meeting in Stansted yesterday, so the three stooges could negotiate there own fat pay rise, what about the rest of us…are we not allowed to know that OUR Employee Representative Committee are having this meeting! Probably not, because they are lining their own pockets and not thinking about anyone else, no signs, no posters in the crew room, no note on crew dock, just a secret hush hush meeting with the management.

What happened to REPA?? Haven’t had a text in a while!
What happened to BALPA?

The rumoured pay deal is something similar the last effort, sector pay £24 per hour for captains and £17 per hour for FO’s, yes £17 per hour!!

So if you work 900 hrs per year, which you probably wont,

Captains - 900x24= 21600 /12 = approx £1800 per month

FO’s 900x17=15300/12 = approx £1275 per month

At the moment its approx £22 per hour for FO’s and Captains

22x900=19800/12=£1650 per month

I guess you can see where this is going for the FO’s…..

I should imagine there’s a few other extras thrown in to gloss over the reduction in sector pay, rubbish pension (no good if you leave) and what not, but its still going to be a pay cut.

Ryanair seem to think that FO’s will accept this because they know that in three years with the bare minimum hours they can be a Captain and get a pay rise, but what are the FO’s supposed to do for the first three years, I don’t know bout you, but my whole life doesn’t revolve around getting four stripes! FO’s still have houses, kids etc to pay for, plus the loans they got to get the job in the first place, £70000 plus, and we don’t all have a rich daddy!

This situation is just like their random base change pay cuts, they open a base near where you call home, they offer you the chance to move home, but what they don’t tell you is they’ve already cut your pay by up to £16000 per year, because they think they are doing you a favour by moving you home, well you can get lost!

This is going to turn into a situation where all the FO’s with a 1000hrs+ jet time are going to leave for somewhere better, then you will have no internal command upgrades leaving the company with DEC’s from another defunct airline somewhere in the world flying with a 200 hr cadet’s. Be afraid, very afraid!!!

This will also result I an extreme cockpit gradient, not just in experience, but knowing that the guy sat next to you in the left voted yes and therefore lost you 500-800 pounds a month, should make for interesting cockpit conversation, and indeed performance and safety! Sure, the lack of quality is already starting to show its head, no more command checks (to reduce failure rate) and a simplified LPC/OPC sim layout, which is easier to pass, or as they look at it NOT to fail!!

I’m not doubting anyone’s professionalism when it comes to flying, hell, with the amount of SOP’s, duplicated checklist items and standard calls in place its hard to miss something important (although it does happen…) but I don’t think the YES voting captain is going to get as much out of the NO voting FO as he would if we had ALL STICKED TOGETHER!! And worked as a TEAM. Bye bye CRM, what’s that they teach you at east mid’s, there’s no I in TEAM (well, unless you’re a Ryanair YES captain that is!!)

This could be one of the best airlines in Europe, great routes, fairly new aircraft, the management just need to realise this, a happy pilot is a safer and more productive pilot, which I think I fairly obvious.

For the sake of the company, and the FO’s, lets have an open discussion about this ERC, why behind closed doors…….fat brown envelopes……..?

I know a window cleaner who gets more than £17 an hour. Is that figure really right?

CW, that's sector pay: it's a portion of salary.

Notagain, you are clearly angry about this - and if it is true then you have every right to be. It sounds outrageous on the face of it; especially if your ERC are supposed to be acting in your best interests... whatever happened to transparency!

The point you raise about FOs salary rings home with me. I am only a lowly PPL(H) holder; but the thought of flying for a living (fixed or rotary) always crosses my mind.

However, thankfully i have a good job in Manufacturing IT (paid for the PPL at least!); and even if I was fortunate to land an FO job with a airline I don't think the salaries on offer until you reach command are enough for me to live on.

Before everybody starts shouting me down, other than the helicoptering I don't live an outrageous life style - I drive a Ford Focus, live in a mortgaged 2 bed terraced in Coventry, and have a 1 month old baby boy.

Setting aside the valid CRM issues you raise, you would have thought that both the airlines and those with a command would realise that if anything you need a decent salary more when you are FO (and by implication relatively fresh faced) - you are normally younger and so trying to set up home; and you have the crippling debt of your training to repay....

... its such a shame. Anyway, I must get back to dreaming up ways to get rid of my mortgage... but all the very best in negotiating a much fairer pay settlement.

Fair enough, your life might not revolve around getting 4 stripes, but do consider that once you do then you will likely spend a LOT more of your career in the LHS than as an FO.

Sacrifcing Captains pay for FOs may seem all very equitable at any one instant in time but when you look at YOUR potential earnings over your entire career a different picture emerges.

Alternatively, one could always leave and join a company which doesn't hold it's employees in such contempt.

Helicraig:
Next time you think about a glamorous flying job, think about the amount of time you get to spend with that new baby boy (and congrats on that!) - and how it will suffer. Also think about the constant knowledge that your newfound company is going to try to follow the you know who market led trend of trying to continuously screw down your terms and conditions. I know of no other field of endeavor where people continue to put up with the pressures and vagaries of their existence in the same manner as flight crew - who do it because they love the challenge of flying. Try putting the average bean counter in the front seat of a handflown aircraft moving at 150 kts towards a rainy wet runway in heavy turbulence and high gusting crosswinds/crap visibility, and the sure knowledge that you've got 25 minutes to get it all turned around and do it again. Sorry, but the bean counter would be halfway to the coffee machine and their team-building exercise, before you crossed the threshold.
It's a different world, and as long as the office boys run the show, that's the way it's gonna be...

Notagain....
I presume you researched the methods of this company before you signed on the dotted line with them? The practices of Ryanair are well known and have been extensively published here and elsewhere over a number of years.

Perhaps your experiences should serve as a salutary lesson for those who might act with similar haste in order to enter the airline profession at any price.

Magplug,

i did look in to Ryanair before i joined,indeed i searched on this very site and read many posts with many different view's.But looking back i probably made the wrong choice,the lure of a shiny new jet,various bases and that ever so practiced nack that Ryanair have of convincing you that its not that bad,and its the highest paid airline in europe!! you will see the banner on this very site advertising such a 'fact'. Ive been here for a few years,and i've seen thing go from bad to worse.My original post hopefully will make interesting reading for anyone looking to join,or pilots already working there that didn't even realise these so called negotiations where going on,thats how the ERC seems to work,as i mentioned in the first post there seems to be no such thing as an open discussion in Ryanair (unless of course you count the 'town hall meetings',but these just appear to be a standard powerpoint point presentation and a whole load of false PR).

Im hoping some more pilots read this and post so we can get a general feel of the situation within the STN based captains and fo's.

As far as I can see we rejected 5k in allowances, 5K in company pension contribution and a 5/4 roster with no loss of holiday for just 2% increase on basic pay. The deal was good for Captains, not good for F/Os so we rightly rejected it. Unless we have union representation we are all going to lose out but unfortunately the vast majority of F/Os I fly with don't belong to BALPA so next time I will vote for the deal if it is similar to the last one.

The Sandman

Try getting a Pilot to come in at 0730 when his report time should be 0900, every work day.
Try getting a Pilot to be on call 24/7
Try getting a Pilot to work on his laptop from 1900-2200 on Co business having done a 12hr day already then being back at work at 0730
Try getting a Pilot to have 96 days off and 2 weeks holiday in a year

:\

Mr Angry, your points are irrelevant as it would be illegal for a pilot to do as you suggest. There are laws to prevent such fatigue inducing behaviour, as a slip by a pilot can cost lives, a slip by an office worker will not.

Once again the ryanair pilots drop the ball it seems. Unity is your friend, without it you'll be screwed, yet again. Any captain who thinks alienating the FO's is a good idea is living in fairyland. Soon enough said FO's will be shaft you in return when their command turn comes.
You really are a pack of short-sighted idiots. Thanks for screwing our profession. Yet again. :rolleyes:

From what I hear, not enough of you will join. :ugh: How those that don't manage to get out of bed in the morning, yet alone fly an aeroplane is beyond me.

Get your self a union.

Then you can complain that the union reps (probably going to be Captains) did the deal that you are complaining about and you will have paid a percentage of your salary for the privilege.

Ask how the NATS ATCO union has improved the student member's pay and conditions over the last 10 years!

A union will not change what is being complained about here. It may be useful in certain cases but then again a good legal insurance policy would be cheaper and provide better cover!

Regards,

DFC

You are quite correct DFC and that is why pilots in all other unionized airlines get a regular pay cut every year. Just the same as Ryan.

The mind boggles

EGSS does suck a bit, probably why I drive to LHR.
That said, was a bit of a major whine for a 2 post proby.

I Am sorry to say it,i am no advocate of this managements ways and means.But the responsibility with this situation lies overwhelmingly with the majority of the pilot body who deem it permissible to accept this treatment.It has gone on too long to be blaming everyone else and pleading the moral high ground.The simple facts are that if pilots are unwilling to look after each other and bring an end to the me,me,me culture.(the culture of which the erc is the most visible manifestation,but which most other pilots in this company subscribe to).Then there is no future in this company.Accept and move on!!!(sad to say).only when it becomes truly too much to tolerate,will it then change.Market wise that will probably be too late to go elsewhere.

Change it or zip it!!!

Everything in life has to have balance. It is the nature of physics and we are living in this unbalanced planet unfortunately, complaining about every little deeds that are done to us.
Think bigger guys, tonnes of people making CPL today couldn't even dream about it 10 or 20 years ago. The whole system changed radically few years ago, so be happy.
I think it is the time for you guys to get a grip on your own future without whining on this site.


Cheers,
Skydrol

I would like to broaden the debate. Perhaps, play the devil's advocate, somewhat.

Let us examine other professions; be they medical, legal, engineering architecture and many more. They all have apprentices starting out at the bottom learning their profession. Many spend years & years gaining enough experience and knowledge to be approved, classified, qualified. Mostly they start on a lowly wage and work their way up. It is many years before they gain promotion and start to earn a substantial salary. I agree there is a difference in the funding of their education; some have university grants or sponorship, other are also self sponsored. Pilots are mostly self sponsored or have earned it the hard way through self improver routes such as AFI/QFI. But hearing about the enormous debts incurred by university students when they leave those institutions, perhaps they are similar to pilots. (I am assuming that the PPL costs are those spent voluntarily to pursue a hobby).

So here we have a group of young 20 year olds starting out with 200hrs and green apprentices earning over 30,000 GBP pa. Within 4 years they can be captains and earning 70,000+ at the age of 28. Wow. Look around at your mates and compare yourself. Thank your lucky stars. You joined as a vocation and now you want it to be a cash cow. If that is the case you ain't going to last the next 35 years as captain doing the same drudge week in week out. However, the bank account will look very rosey.

I've had 35.000 GBP F/O's sitting next to me and things have gone wrong. Perhaps not always in flight, and if so certainly not in the QRH. There have been pax problems over the N.Atlantic, numerous problems on the ground with everything under the sun. You ask for their opinion in the hope of educatiing them to think and decide. (After all next year it might be them sitting here). Nothing. A big ER! I even know of SFO's in the majors who are so cosy that they do not want a command. They will have to do all the work and for little extra pay, but a lot of hassle. Ouch!

So, before you start to gripe I would suggest that you consider just how fecking lucky you are to be where you want to be; have only 2 rungs on the ladder to the crock of perceived gold, and to be way ahead of your contempory apprentices in the salary stakes at the same age.

How is it that we created an atmosphere where everyone at the bottom wants a slice of the cake from the top shelf. I too was mighty irritated when I was told by some old fart of a captain that 'my time would come'. Pompous ass. Perhaps he was right after all. Perhaps green horn F/O's think they are the same as old farts. They can handle the a/c just as well on most days. But then the manure hits the air conditioning, or things get just a little feisty. That's why there are 2 pilots on the flight deck and 1 has the responsibility. And that's why he gets a bigger slice of the cake. It's the same in every profession. It's that ours seems to have a very gentle salary slope between the bottom and the top rung; most others have many steps and steeper gradient. The LoCo's have also created a case where the top rung is occupied for a significantly greater time that the bottom one. A major contrast to previous years and the majors. Because of this I'd be curious to calculate the earnings over a 40 year career between a major carrier pilot, 15 years to command, and LoCo pilot 4 years to command.

I do not agree with the way LoCo's treat their personnel. Generally they abuse the vocational aspect of the job, suck you dry and give very little incentive to make them a career. But that is your choice in the end. Sadly that is the real world. I don't agree with it, but then back to the beginning, "Devil's advocate".

RAT 5
Thank god there are guys like you out there to tell it how it is.

RAT5
The professions you compare us to above tend to move on without having to start at the bottom again but for aircrew a move to many jobs means giving up on what you have gained and starting again at the bottom regardless of time in job.So while I can see your arguement I dont think it is that simple for flight crew.A 40 yr old CAPT with 7-8000 hrs could well find themselves in a huge loss position if your ideas are fully taken on board.

Just before I left Ryanair I predicted that this situation would come along again. I didn't realise it would be so soon.

For those who do not/have not worked for Ryanair, you can't really appreciate just how devisive this company is. Last year, Ryanair attempted to fund the Captains pay rise by reducing the pay earned by Co-Pilots. And attempted to pass it off as aceptable by stating that FO's would be Captains in four years time therefore they would earn good money then.

A few points of note and they're also the reasons why I left that company. Firstly, when expansion stops and the loco market is completely saturated, how long is time to command going to be? At a guess, it would revert to the industry standard seven to ten years. That's a long time to be earning a very poor FO's salary without any other benefits such as allowances, pension, LOL insurance, uniform etc.

Secondly, do you think for one moment that a company like Ryanair will not turn their attention to reducing the costs of the left hand seat, once they've got the right hand seat crewed for free? The Captains in that company have their heads in the sand if they think for a minute they're not in MOL's cost reduction sights.

Ryanair pilots are also in the worst possible barganing position they have been in for a few years. And Ryanair Management know this and must be clapping their hands in joy.

Let us consider, no union protection, a take it or leave it approach from MOL et al which will be even more ferocious this time around. The reason why?

It's fairly simple. The only real barganing chip Ryanair pilots have is "Give us what we want or we leave". But we now have a scenario where there's nowhere else to go. TFly are merging with FCA. TCX are merging with MYT. Result, job losses (maybe) but certainly no recruitment. Easyjet have just announced that there is no more room until winter 2008. BA/Virgin/Aer Lingus recruitment isn't anywhere near the rate able to absorb a mass exodus of Ryanair guys. So the Ryanair pilots who aren't prepared to travel to the far east etc have nowhere readily available to go.

The next round of "negotiations" between Ryanair and it's pilots really is crunch time. I have no doubt the company will be even more brutal than they usually are this time around because they know there will not be a mass exodus of pilots. They'll do there utmost best to force a deal onto the pilots that will lock them into the worst possible T & C's for the foreseeable future.

And once Ryanair have acheived this, other companies will follow in order to compete. I hate to be a prophet of doom but I really fear for all of us no matter where we are. For now the front line is Ryanair. But believe me, once that line is breached (and I believe it will be) those of us sitting comfortable several miles further back will be within the range of Ryanair's artillery. And that will be in the form of job offers as our own airlines go under.

In my opinion we should all be doing everything we can to support the Ryanair pilots. Because if we don't, then the T & C's they currently "enjoy" will be ours too.

I sincerly hope the Captain's in Ryanair fully realise the enormity of the vote they're about to undertake.

Why are you still with Ryanair?

In defense of our ERC they are doing exactly as the pilots asked or should I say the ones who could be bothered to turn up at the Radisson in STN a few months ago.

I attended a meeting at the Radisson a few months ago when the ERC notified the STN pilots they were holding a meeting to discuss a way forward.

The turnout at the meeting i went to in the morning had about 30 people and the afternoon I was told had even less.

This a trully appalling turnout out of about 350 pilots in STN and shows complete apathy towards these issues. I have attended most of these meetings and sadly this is not uncommon.

However those that turned gave an overwhelmimg YES to the question 'did the pilots wish the ERC to go back to the Company to see if there was a way forward before the start of 2008 pay discussions'

And as for secrecy i met one the ERC members on Friday last week to ask of ant developments and was told that they were meeting the Company the following Tuesday and there would be talks with the pilots when they had heard what the Company had to say. No cloak and dagger there.

He expained they would like to have met the Company sooner but that the management had been tied up with the opening of four bases and this was the first opportunity.

I know this guy he and the ERC are trying to get the best deal possible. It is certainly not for personal progression or gain. He has nowhere to go he is already a TRE. He, they have put up with all sorts of abuse and slander about back handers and so on. Personally I wouldnt do there job but as far as I can tell neither would anyone else.

As for BALPA, I am a member and have been for donkeys but I aint holding my breath for this lot.

Good luck to the ERC they need it with our management and sadly our appathetic pilots.

Well, if Ryanair are really dragging the industry as a whole down re T&C's should BALPA not consider a one-off opt-in of ALL RYR pilots at no cost? To run for one year, time enough for some meaningful ground to be taken back from the company. All sorts of ways to look at how to handle the 'missing' subs later, but at least as a way of galvanising the whole of the sorry workforce at one time, and go ahead to achieve something.

I do believe MOL's shameful work is affecting the entire industry, and quite possibly safety standards in RYR.

Open for discussion?

Bonernow,

Not seeking to get involved in this debate or attack your post.
General points of order on a certain section of it:

Thats a fairly significant statement (the next 12 months). Can you show us what medium/source was used for this? EZY's a/c deliveries are slowing down and thanks to a different ethic better provisions are leading to improved retainment. However, more 'low experience' guys will commence type rating with them again around Feb next year. This bodes well for guys with current JAR25 experience. Sources at BA state recruitment to be fairly bouyant at the moment. Additionally, BA will have to start preparing for the A380 and B787 in the near future. This will mean alot of crewing inefficiencies ie. type changes, people in sims and not on the line, overall fleet expansion but initial greater expansion as it won't be a straight forward new a/c in, old a/c out. They will want more short haul crews to help feed this overall process. Indications from MYT (one of the merger airlines) are that they will at least be considering crews for recruitment again next August. That could possibly be seen as a guide for the other merger airlines too. (I appreciate it's an ever changing industry). After that as for Virgin, Emirates.. whoever, there is always recruitment to cater for expansion, retirements and attrition (be it less than for the lo co).. You just need alot of experience, the right qualities and some contacts ;)

I guess I'm just trying to add a little balance to that area of your last post and say to everyone (without telling them to suck eggs) that in any event peeps from various other outfits will also look at the airlines you mention and there's alot of selection to go through. (The full monty all over again in BA's case). The message is that there will be slots available at all these airlines, it's just down as usual to networking and good work on selection.. Its not a 'numbers' or 'quantity' game (like the lo co "3-4 year until command" phrase. Roughly only 50% who get assessed for command will get it at the first time of asking), it's a 'quality' game!

The future is what we are going to make.. As for the rest of the argument im just an FR cadet at the moment looking to make it to the line, learn my trade, build experience and enjoy my fATPL flying! That's the first milestone for little old me. At that point if I'm happy my setup and feel I can develope more, i'll stay. If I think I can do better for myself elsewhere then I will move forward in that direction. They're a business and I'm a business..

All the best guys :ok:

Diamond_Dog thats the whole point. There will be nowhere worth moving to with people like you setting the industry up for failure.

You need to look a little further ahead than just unfreezing your ATPL.

Ryanair pilots are poisoning us all.

Ryanair pilots are doing no such thing. Management are systematically degrading terms and conditions and Ryanair pilots (most) are doing their best to sort it out. It will get sorted out it just takes time.

No, they should pay for membership like everyone else. Ryanair is a mess - how many different pilot contracts now exist? I am told by contacts who work there that it is in the region of 20. That mess is down to the FR pilots accepting MOL's regime; they have to stand up and sort out the problem as one group, BALPA could help them, but they should not be given a free lunch in order to do it.

No disrespect Diamond Dog but you illustrate why ryanair and their pilots will succeed in continuing to screw everything up for the industry. Recruit a barrow full of low hour guys who are nothing more than grateful to be in the seat and you can offer whatever s*ite T&Cs you like.

I hope you do enjoy your flying and good luck with your line training DD, and I mean that. Just be aware that you are being shafted by your employer. You are not a "business" you are an employee, and deserve to be treated with respect, consulted on any change in working practices that affect your lifestyle or pay and you should expect to have all agreements and contracts honoured by your employer.

You won't get that at Ryanair.

Diamond Dog, you are getting it totally wrong!

Your attitude is typical of the guys who see FR as a stepping stone and think that after a year or less of crap, and 500-1000 hours, they will go to greener pastures.... This behaviour is contributing to the lowering of the FR T&C's.
Unfortunately, for a big majority of guys, it does not happen this way. "Better" companies are not recruiting that much, and once into FR, you might find that you are stuck there for a while. You will then figure out that people out there fighting for better conditions are RIGHT.
Contribute to the creation of sh*t conditions, you might one day eat your own sh*t.

Diamond Dog,

007 is spot on with his assessment.

I know easyjet aren't recruiting until 2008 because I received an email off them telling me so! They have sufficient people to crew their current fleet and sufficient in their hold pool to start training as and when the new slots appear.

I am one of the lucky ones who got out of FR while there was still somwhere to go to. If you believe that there is loads of space elsewhere to deal with a mass exodus of FR pilots then you're frankly wrong. Just ask any current FR pilot trying to leave.

What my earlier post alluded to was that FR management will use this lack of opportunity for the FR pilots to leave en mass as a lever to further reduce the T & C's. Historically FR negotiate with their pilots early in the new year for any deal to start 1st April.

Let's see if I'm wrong when the time comes.

Diamond Dog, I'm really sorry to keep the negativity aimed in your direction, but....

As far as I can see there tends to be a common pattern to an FR pilots stance with regards to the company. I went through it and many of the guys I know went through similar stages on the road to understanding FR.

Let me explain. When you first join FR as a brand new shiny FO (sorry SO!), as I did, you have a lot of good feeling and support towards the company. This is natural, they gave you a job and now you can finally start paying back the monumental debt you've accumulated becoming a pilot.

For the first 3-4 months you are distracted by learning the ropes of what is a difficult and challenging job. You don't have a lot of time for getting involved in company politics. And although you hear the stories and have heard of REPA and BALPA, you put it all down to a few moaners who have nothing better to do than complain about their lot. This is normal also, there are bound to be a few moaners in any company.

Then around 4-6 months in, you realise that there may be something in this REPA stuff after all, because by now you will have experienced some of FR's tactics yourself. So you get yourself a username and password for REPA and have a look.

This is where it becomes painful. You read the posts and start to get very angry, very very angry at how your benevolent employer is treating you and what it plans to do to you in the future. You can't understand how they are managing to get away with the erosion to your T&C's and even more worried why no-one else (apart from the few on REPA) want to do anything to stop the rot.

Once this stage is over, and you've calmed down a bit, you go to the BALPA website and join. You become an active poster on REPA and vow to do something about the problem.

Now, where you go from this point is a big decision to make. Do you try and leave and get better T&C's for yourself that way? Or do you stay at FR and fight for the greater good of the industry? The choice is entirely yours.

The choice I made is the right one for me. I'm sticking around, simply because I refuse to let the bastards grind me down!

Daniel is in the lions den!

Hey guys, like i said, i'm not getting embroiled in this and all the arguments have been well milked on this website. All I can generally say to the responses is read my original post again, carefully. :ugh:

I'm just repeating myself now in a different way.

All I was doing was balancing the argument that other airlines are still recruiting and people do move to other airlines. I wasn't looking to get into t's and c's, defend FR or attack FR. Flaps5Speed180, good post and I hear you loud and clear. Maybe things could evolve that way but honestly, I'm not coming from that angle. The t's and c's and my financial future is scarey to be frank. I just hope I can survive. It is terrible how pilots are treated in 'relative' comparison to other industries of a similar stature. For me personally the money isn't that bad. It's the training debt burden that offsets it! Man, I have no idea anymore why I am sat here typing way, i certainly intend to stop in a few minutes and go for a pint and catch up with the mrs! ;)

Bonernow, 2008 is just over a month a way, is about 12 months away.

It isn't a case of "oh there's no places, we're stuck where we are" or "oh, there's way too many pilots wanting to leave a certain airline so how will i ever be able to move on as the market is saturated." Its down to the individual to achieve it for themselves. If they want to! That's it! That's all I was saying.. Where the rest comes from I don't know.... But this is pprune afterall.. :yuk:

To the peeps that think 'my type' of industry entrant are single handedly responsible for destroying the industry t's and c's for everyone else, well that is one perspective on the 'who's doing this to us' crys and one that i accept. YES! I take my 'share' of responsibility!

In any event that isn't just down to 'FR', it's down to the lo co philosophy in general &.... there are many other angles too! Deregulation, which gave so many more jobs and an explosion of expansion in the aviation industry, in itself is one! Free market forces took the legacy airlines out of the driving seat and the lo co's now have a massive slice of the pie.. This is what the EU wanted and this is what the EU got. The good, the bad and the ugly.

Sorry to the old boys as well but another angle are senior captains that have their retirement money all sorted and move on from their legacy airlines to the lo co's for a happy last few years on lower pay. The lo co's get highly experienced guys at cut down prices and thus starting the cancer down from the top. After all pay is hierarchical. This isn't my argument but a perspective others have highlighted on here and one i give credence to as well. Absolutley no disrespect to the old boys (and gals) who do this. Like I said everyone does what they feel is necessary. I'm just analyising the situation and will not 'blame' any creed of pilot for decaying t's and c's.

Yet another angle are the guys who are already in the industry. Most of them want to stay out of the 'gaze' and get on with there jobs. Fair enough! But if one says that tomorrow ALL guys simultaneously stood up and said "oh.. no jack i'm not paying for my type rating, you fund me". Then yes, airlines would have to have a major rethink. But then if the guys already in there (and afterall, i'm nothing yet, you are working for the airlines, you have 'influence') simultaneously turned around and said "urm what the devil do you think you are doing charging newbies for TR's?! Stop it now and give us better t's and c's or else we will strike" Then equally if not more so, the airlines would have to have a big rethink. Am I happy plunging myself further into the red for a TR? (Please no off spin arguments of become an FI, oh you should have saved up or go ferry a seneca across the atlantic.. FI great, but in all instances i would have had to have gone bankrupt! (Yes I'm one of those!)

To someone else who said i was typical of guys who thinks i'm going to get my ATPL and walk straight into a more 'cosey' airline. Again, read what I said.. If I was then I would be reading what I said again. When did I say was ever going to leave FR?

&.. ok so I'm an 'employee' not a 'business'? Well at the moment i guess I'm neither as I won't have any chance of a contract offer until I've successfully completed my line check.. Even then I'd be likey to get a Brookfield contract, which means that I would be a business technically speaking. Be it a sole trader or a Ltd Company. But all that crap to one side. I was saying, its a dog eat dog world. I know the 'there'll be more peeps waiting to take my place' argument as well.. its just endless..

FR has 'happened' to be the only airline that has given me a shot at what i actually want to do. After months and months of networking (and i have some good contacts in other airlines), phoning, letters etc etc etc. Chat's with senior guys, some invitations to get back to certain airlines in so many months time.. First time passes in everything, 92% ATPL average blar blar and.. no other interviews. :{ I have no right to a job because of that. But I'm a begger! Not a chooser in this instance! I would have quite happily crawled on one knee from john o groats to lands end for one. I'm that committed! :p

I am certainly not risking 2 years of absolute commitment to flying, personal sacrifices and all the money the bank has lent me (meaning certain bankrupsy) just for the sake of peeps who are already in there. The kamikaze pilots were a strange and resolute bunch but I don't have such devotion. If it was for my mum (bless her) then yeh, i'd even die, but for you.. I will do what i can from the inside.

Anyway.. If this generates aload of 'responses' then thats cool, i guess that's what this place is for. A good ineffective 'vent'. Fairplay. Well thats my vent done. Not that I'm venting at you though.

Sincerely, all the best to everybody! :ok:

So little achieved because of so few who are so scared of their base Captains, they don't want to vote no for anything opposing company rule.

Blinded by bullsh#t unfortunately too many believe anything they are told by the FR management, or are won over by what seems to be a generous offer.

You must all pull together, a selfish few continue to balls things up for everyone else, it'll only ever get worse in FR otherwise.

The problem with achieving anything this year is that they have watered down the amount of permanent pilots at STN. The vast majority of pilots, especially co pilots are brookfield contractors. This means that the captains will vote for last years agreement this coming April (because contractors dont count in the deal) and the deal will be done. Its a real shame for all of us, especially you you brand new copilot that may not get your command in 3 years time because this growth is not going to last. Those of you joining in 08 will be looking at F/O position for 7 or 8 years! You will be stuck in a very poor deal.

Indeed the growth has already started to slow down. In the last 3 months FR took 21 new a/c, but guess what, they have sold 20! 5 have already gone and the others will go early next year. So net growth of 1 a/c. The STN 20% cutback is a twofold reason; First to improve negotiating tactics with the BAA on a long term deal, but more importantly it suits FR because the loads are so bad. I have never seen such poor loads since I joined FR X years ago (too scared to say how many cos they might track me down, not joking!).

My prediction is for possible job losses next year. The job losses will be preceded by MOL and the henchmen trying to get the expensive pilots(at STN)to leave by pissing them off. They have done their Dublin cul, now they will focus on STN.

On a commercial standpoint, they will probably buyout a competitor Loco in an effort to reduce capacity in EU. So hopefully it wont be your airline because I would feel very sorry for you having to consider accepting T and Cs that will be well below current FR T and Cs.

Where is BALPA? Why arent you in the car parks at STN dishing out application forms? You must get down to grass root level. Your presence in STN in some office has gone unnoticed. If you dont get into FR it will cause such a headache for all you other customers too. Come on, one last push before April.

"in my last airline." What a load of complete and utter rubbish. If you really work in Ryanair - then have a look at the netline ops screen and if you can count - you will find when I left STN crew room tonight there were 148 a/c operating across the network. Why do people invent this rubbish about the airline.

FR is taking 40 aircraft net from Apr 2008-2009. How do you make out there will be job losses. Read the website. Read Flight.

You should not be scared of Base Captains. The one who scares the trainers is PB. Quietly mass firing Jar 25 pilots, sending a blizzard of letters on sickness, constantly monitoring training, forcing pilots into contracting in their 100's. As I left STN at 10pm - he was bashing away at a keyboard - get a life you b....x. PB - There is more to life than a spreadsheet pilot hitlist.

inveritas I don't think there is as much difference between your assessment and that of in my last airline as you seem to think. You are both making an assessment of much the same info. It is a bit much to turn this into an accusation of his "making things up". He just gives us more of his reasoning than you do.

Neither of you, nor I, know what the future brings but we do know that loads are down, aircraft are arriving as if on a conveyor belt, second hand aircraft from FR are hard to sell and each new route tends to be more marginal than the last. It's easy to solve the latter problem (low cost = low salary, so you take more from the employees), but the other issues are more enduring.

Is it possible that we will see less pilots in FR next year, not to mention a further re-structuring of pilot employment and much reduced pay overall? Actually it is. There could be more pilots, routes and aircraft too. Only one thing is certain - average pilot pay will continue to decrease. One day it will be low enough that even the dumbest FR pilot will notice.