UUUHhello,

A deal has just been reached!!! Could all the negative people give their vision please. Is this a ****ty deal or is it just not fashionable to be positive about a great deal??

Comments please

Indeed ,that's the news we have from our negotiating team but because the deal was negotiated by KLC management and impacts on KLM and the VNV, the package is being ratified by these other parties before being presented to KLCuk pilots for consideration.

I understand it should be ready for publication before the end of this week. i.e. either today or tomorrow.

Standby...............

Hmm; "the deal was negotiated by KLC management", somehow this triggered a level 2 warning. Hope the deal is not based on promisses that don't cost anything to KLC management and which they cannot fullfill :=

Level 3 warning...
 

Unfortunately, it was based on an understanding KLM thought it had with the VNV. It undoes the hard work performed by our CC, ACAS and KLM/C and buggers up a possible early solution.

Looks like I was right.......

It would seem that, now a deal is on the cards agreed in principle with KLC KLM and balpa ,the vnv have raised the compenstaion requirements to a higher level preventing any agreement.

I bet they are still smiling.

Fair point, Freddy.

But,.......bear in mind that this information has come from the company. The same company that claimed that the VNV were opposed to the original Balpa proposals, at a time when the VNV had not even seen or heard of the proposals!!! :eek:

Unless you have inside info on what the VNV's demands are, it may be better to keep an open mind, and not readily jump to the pessimistic conclusion, in agreement with the company, that the VNV "have raised the compensation requirements to a higher level preventing any agreement". Especially as you do not know if what the company percieve as 'too high' might seem reasonable to you, and even to Balpa.

A win win solution is still possible, and is the only sustainable outcome, in my opinion, but everyone just needs to hold their nerves :ok:

VNV point of view
 

As a member of the VNV members council I would like to protest to the negative picture drawn of VNV people by some of the PPRUNE users. There is no benefit for VNV to keep the British pilots out. In fact, it is in the interest of the Dutch pilots to keep the Brits on board because of the production that is flown by them. The market for fresh new pilots is not that favourable anymore and pressure from the company on us Dutch pilots to fly beyond the age of 56 is building up.
The mentioned deal between KLC and Balpa talks of better terms for the English (who wish to remain with KLC-Uk). I think VNV wants comparable terms for the Dutch. Meaning: at present there is the maximum component of the salary formula Company Years and Age of 1700 points. When you are happy with the function part of the salary formula, you start to loose money once you have hit the maximum of 1700 points (to give you an idea: I'm presently 37 years old, 8 years with the company and hitting that maximum next year allready). Thus an incentive to move on to mainline is created. But what if you would rather not do that (for the same reasons some of the English choose not to go to mainline)?. Do we want the situation where an English colleague can stay on the Fokker Jet and still see a yearly rise in salary whereas the Dutch colleague needs to divert to mainline to see a yearly rise?

So my guess is that VNV want's the cap on L&P (Age and Company years) adjusted upwards or even lifted... Sure, on the short term that might cost some extra money. On the long term though, I think that the people the cost that bit more money will probably generate that loss again by having a side job as instructor and saving the company instructor training (for instance...).

But, eventhough I am member of the VNV members council, I have no details neither on the exact deal between KLC and Balpa, nor on the demands that VNV have made in return. But the Dutch side will not be content with no compensation at all, some form of compensation must be agreed upon.

there are further meetings this week between KLM and the VNV, i understand that the VNV price went up, far more than you suggest Bergi, this is causing some friction between KLM and the VNV, BALPA in the meantime are not involved with these talks as they are purely between the VNV and KLM.

KLC management is expecting to pay bypass payments, for career persective for junior KLM pilots is influenced by the deal. VNV is fighting to get the best deal in this new situation, just as Balpa did for the UK-guys. I don't think VNV will block the whole deal, it simply is not in their interest, for reasons Bergj already described.

The precedent for paying 'passover' or 'by-pass' pay was set when KLM paid similar for dissuading 737 FO's from taking KLC Commands, and for bringing in the swedish wet-lease guys. Nothing new or radical there. What is in contention, I understand, is the level (i.e. the number of mainline list pilots affected) of compensation.

Similarly, the abolishing of the max L+P factor for KLC pilots has been on the table for a while. Raising or abolishing it also paves the way for career KLCuk Captains to progress beyond the current maximum increment. So, in a way, this will benefit both sets of pilots.

This is a matter that is too important, and has progressed too far to end in deadlock. A solution has to be found, and once the posturing on all sides has ended, something positive will be the end result, I feel.

Till then...........................:zzz:

The KLCuk pilots have a maximum cap on their Jet salaries as well, it would seem KLM/KLC pilots reach their cap slightly ahead of the KLCuk pilots whom will have to be in the company for about 15 years (or more) to reach it.

Your facts are therefore incorrect....:ugh:

But one set of pilots working for KLC have always had the option of moving on to avoid the L+P Cap. Valid points regarding the sense of this have been made but the important point is that there is a choice that can be excercised by some individuals. Some of us don't have that luxury. The point the BALPA has made is that this is discrimination and to a degree, the company appears to have agreed. However, I do hope the VNV are granted their wishes so that we can have ours.

PM

Fact still remains I reach the cap after 9 years of being in the company, if I had had the conditions of the Uk side I understand I would have hit it 6 years later. Quite a difference. Of course I have no idea at all what the difference in pay levels is. All I know for sure is I would rather hang on a bit on the Fokker jet instead of crossing over back to mainline just because of some L&P cap...

So, it’s been some time since the last posting on this subject. In the mean time a new contract has been signed.

I know the details, and I think they are great. That’s why I’m a little mystified, surprised, no, even pissed off that some of the harsh insulters to VNV/dutch pilots AKA UK pilots have not deemed it necessary to post the details of the new deal!!!!

Whazzup, almost all your demands have been met but still only a handful of pilots accepted them.

Sorry, but after having read all the negative post, I’m now really interested in what the KLM/UK pilot’s have to report about the new deal.
Greetings

Sorry but you seem to be missinformed. All the demands were not fullfilled it was a compromise deal only, certainly not ground breaking.

The small number of KLCuk pilots who have taken up the offer for an interview should clearly show how much of a poor deal this was. If it was the right deal almost all the KLCuk pilots would have taken it.

I would be interested to hear further details on what you have 'found out' regarding the way Balpa behaved? (I see you edited that bit of your post, shame all the emails were sent to this thread's subscribers then... maybe you thought better of it after reading it again)?

Well, it was a little harsh topic to get into that is why I edited it out. But if you really want to know: Current balpa pres. saw his position threatened last year by another guy that was way more popular. balpa pres would have lost his position for sure. However, second guy was also interested in the position of ECA president. So the current Balpa pres started lobbying for him. They did this by completely badmouthing the other contender for the position, the former VNV president. Finally, at a meeting in madrid VNV confronted balpa about this and they worked out their differences (even signed a paper to that effect). Next meeting in Denmark, same thing happened again, terms like etnic cleansing were used. From this time on and for this reason, VNV refused to negotiate with BALPA anymore. all talks with KLM were now bilateral instead of unilateral with would have been more productive.

Balpa dont have a president.

You are confusing Balpa head office with the 'local' KLCuk Balpa team.

VNV refused all 'round the table' talks with KLM/KLC Balpa and VNV dating right back to the time when KLMuk were been 'combined' with KLC. To this date, as far as I am aware, VNV have refused to talk with management and Balpa together despite many requests from Balpa. If they had have done in the first place all of this may have not happened.

What you are talking about is the time when the Balpa delegate became the president of ECA and the VNV representative did not. It was won on a full open ballot within the ECA member associations.

Shame on anyone to suggest bad mouthing, I am sure all the elected members of the ECA who had the authority to vote would not take into account anything such as you suggest. They are professionals.

Well, opinions differ! Let's leave it at that(that's why I deleted the post to begin with)

Still, no answer on what happened with the new deal. Five pages of posts and then.. dead silence. From what you mentioned it is not good. Can you elaborate?

Probably a good idea otherwise this thread will become off topic.

Regarding the offer you mention, the details as I understand them:

The deal offered was that KLCuk pilots may apply to join KLM mainline, will be offered seat protection and career protection (In other words will transfer when they are a Jet Captain) at the bottom of the KLM seniority list.

They will be offered paid tickets for a period of 12 months to get between the UK and Amsterdam where they will considered to be based as from the date of transfer. After that date then they will have to make their own way - possibly XCM but there could be a lot for say at NWI wanting to XCM each day. There is a chance for rostering from the UK but knowing the KLC rostering department I doubt that will happen much (if at all).

They will have to go through a 3 stage interview process (phscological, simulator and interview) and if accepted will join shortly after their 3rd interview (If they are a Jet Captain) if not then they will be offered a position and will transfer upon allocation of their Jet Command Course.

The date of transfer will be the KLM seniority position starting date.

Full removal expenses will be payable (sale of UK residence, removal costs and purchase costs in Holland) if they decide to move to Holland.

If they fail the selection procedure then what? They remain in KLCuk, flying the same aircraft, maybe as a Captain (if that is their current positon). How will KLM justify that one?

Can you imagine it:

'You cant join KLM as you are not sutiable to be a Captain but you can contnue flying our F100/F70 as a Captain while you remain employed by KLCuk' - What a field day the press could have with that one!

One of the biggest bug bears for the UK pilots was the selection procedure, a big pill to swallow to have to go through all that to retain your current position - and then loose all those years service and start at the bottom with a new company - one that apart from the name they could have already been working for for many years.

So, if one of the KLCuk pilots really wanted to join mainline then they can, and retain their current seat/career protection. But, they will be based in Amsterdam and therefore to make this really work that is the only option, move to Amsterdam. For some that is fine, for others then 'it is not posshible' for many reasons.

Also if a pilot leaves KLCuk as a First Officer (just promoted to Captain) then his pension will freeze with KLCuk and his 'final salary' will be his average last 3 years salary - some £35,000GBP per annum less than they were expecting/planning retiring as a Jet Captain on top scale. He will then join the KLM 'average salary' scheme but, at present, will be forced to retire at 56 (unless part time option taken). For many then they will work until 56, then get a small KLM pension and have to wait a further 4 years to then draw their KLCuk pension (which will be at a much reduced rate than their expected final salary when they were planning their retirement financials).

So if age 40 or older a massive financial hit that probably will never be able to be made up.

Those pilots who remain at KLCuk have improved redundancy terms (should KLM decice to close KLCuk) and better base protection than prior to this deal.

So for some its a good deal for other not. Thats life.

Hi Flyburg

I find it a little sad that you feel so aggrieved;

The uk pilots have accepted a deal with KLM BUT it was only a 2:1 majority who voted for it, joining KLm mainline was only part of the dispute, there are other areas that were more important to some balpa members. Also please understand that although only 36 or so pilots have applied to mainline there is a second round of applications in March, some pilots may be waiting to see the outcome of the selection procedure on the first round , or due to personal reasons cannot commit on the first round, only then will we have a true picture of who wishes to transfer.

Also please understand that to many people moving to mainline is not an option, there are quite a few senior F100 captains who are into their 50s so it is totally unrealistic that they should apply.

The politics you refered to in your previous posts were between "big" balpa and the VNV, I agree that it was a very bad situation and was not happy that BALPA were using us as pawns to further their own gains in the international arena, but lets be realistic here the VNV with the D and K accord did not play fair at all with the UK guys, they were never included AT ALL in the negotiations regarding the integration of KLMuk into KLC and the VNV blocked all talks and insisted that the illegal and discriminatory agreement be adhered to.

This history needs to be put behind us all, we can learn from it and move foward........ lets not dwell on the past.....it will get us nowhere.

Personally i have applied to join KLM, I only hope that the selection process is fair and If successful look foward to a long and happy career.

Bluepilot

Interesting the Flyburg has gone quiet now!

Apologies for intruding in to an essentially flight crew thread. I am sorry to hear of all these issues, triggers memories of what was in my opinion and that of my former colleagues appalling treatment by 'blue' from the engineering side. A year and a bit down the line of redundancy things are however considerably better for me now, but I still have a bit of a chip on my shoulder for good 'ol 'blue', which as far as I'm concerned was a great dissappointment. I have fond memories of Air UK and it's crews, as well as KLCuk, so I hope this is resolved to everyones satisfaction. Several things stick in my mind from those days though 1- being told that KLM taking over Air UK would not result in 'us' just becoming an Amsterdam feeder!,(yeah, right) and 2 - receiving a fax in the office out of the blue -terrible pun-sorry! (intended for KLC rep.) stating that in a few months time care of the Fokker's would be undertaken by Martinair (in other words, goodbye to our jobs! Which was nice.:rolleyes:

Anway, it's not an Eng. thread, I'll get me coat.........

Its been some time now since a move to mainline was agreed for the KLMuk pilots, how many have gone? did everybody pass the selection?

The selection process has been going on for a few weeks.

Comparatively few people have applied to join KLM (30 or so). Some have subsequently withdrawn their application, some have been accepted, a few have failed and several have yet to complete the selection.

ACCP is correct there are about 30 or so going through selection at the moment, there is a second round of applications in march which may see more KLCuk pilots apply. So far there have been some failures which is worrying, (you are suitable to captain our aircraft but not suitable to join our airline on equal terms ??? :ugh: ).

Pleased to say thatI have been successful and have joined mainline, however I dont think the grievences have been settled for the rest of the pilots left in KLC uk.

I understand that, so far, half a dozen people would have failed.
Bluepilot is right, it feels like this: :ugh:
Well done by the way!! :ok:

A couple more people have been rejected by KLM. This puts the failure rate at about 50%.
All the individuals concerned are Fokker 100 captains with a minimum of 8 or 9 years service with KLCuk. Knowing all of them, I cannot work out why one was chosen and another rejected. It seems a complete lottery.
Bearing this in mind I cannot imagine many people applying for the second round in March.

"(you are suitable to captain our aircraft but not suitable to join our airline on equal terms ???) - precisely the same corporate arrogant mindset BACX pilots faced when applying for BA Mainline.

I am afraid this goes back to the problems we have had with the Dutch since day 1. DISCRIMINATION, they are playing lip service to the You can join KLM Mainline offer.

They are making a token gesture in passing some,then refusing the rest. The percentage is well over 50 Percent. This includes IRE/TREs who have and are training the New Dutch entrance.

The quality of the people being turned down implies only one thing Your not Dutch your not wanted.

The whole attitude has changed since One of the initial members of BALPA who passed the selection proccess turn down the offer.

How can all these captains not be good enough for KLM Mainline, yet are suitable to fly KLM aircraft under a KLM AOC,taking KLM passengers.
Maybe they should include on there welcome aboard speach,I am not good enough to work for KLM but i can fly you.

The British pilots once again are being treated with contempt,this is a disgrace,Every Dutch pilot should hold there heads in shame.

I am embarassed to be part of such an organisation:ugh:

What is BALPA doing about this situation? Surely they must be making high level representations to VNV

u0062, you are in danger of mixing coherent argument and stupid racism here. I think you should edit this comment of yours.

Hopefully more than they did in support of the bmi pilot vote in favour of strike action.

Nah! They'll chicken out, although maybe the KLM pilots will do more than just accept it without even a whimper. :rolleyes:

ACCP

Maybe you could explain why the selection process has degenerated into a total farce.

I don't know and I would like to find out.
However it's not a reason to suggest, as you do, that every Dutch pilot should hold their head in shame. Don't you agree?

ACCP

In the context of working for a company who management blantantly abuse their position,treat loyal employees with contempt and discriminate!!!!!!!!!!

I am on dangerous ground here. But I would like to respond.
Almost by definition all pilots employed by either Transavia (80% owned by Air France/KLM), and Martinair (50% owned by Air France/KLM) have in the past been turned down by KLM mainline. The reasons are varied (from being too old (an issue back in the eighties), to not meeting the perceived KLM profile). It certainly doesn’t reflect on the quality of the people involved. These pilots have in the past flown KLM mainline passengers (on contracts or code shares), yet have not had the chance to transfer to KLM mainline (and the vast majority of these fine people are Dutch). As a foreigner and a Boeing 777 captain with KLM, I don’t feel discriminated against in the least. I did do the polite thing and became fluent in Dutch, and have been taking French courses (as these are my new owners, something most of my colleagues still haven’t grasped). Being the company with the best employment conditions in Holland, they can set their standards (simple supply/demand). Of the candidates that wish to join up with KLM mainline the company is free to take the ones they consider the best fit. It is the same proces these Transavia or Martinair pilots would have to go through. Some who try make it, some don't. We don’t need a 1000 pilots, we need only what is required. Any British colleagues are more than welcome to join me on the flight deck, and he won’t even have to speak Dutch to me. Racism is just plain brown smelly stuff produced by a bull, and is something only an idiot would imply.

Hi Otterman,
you are right, the vast majority of the KLM pilots are not guilty of discrimination but KLM is i am afraid.
When cityhopper pilots were merged into KLM they did not have all of the problems that the UK pilots have, also it is not fair to compare a UK pilot to Martinair or Transavia, they do not fly in the same flightdeck as our KLM collegues to KLM sops. They may fly the routes now and again but on thier own AOC. Transavia and martinair have not had their aircraft merged into big blue also their companies continue to replace pilots who may leave / retire /die , KLC uk cannot, in 4 years the pilot force in KLCuk has reduced from 240 pilots (not including the BUZZ pilots) to todays 130, the 110 pilots positions lost have been and continue to be filled by new applicants to KLM who join on the KLM mainline seniority list, so british jobs are being slowly moved to holland. Let me ask you..... If for some reason Air France decide that you personally do not fit the Air France corporate profile therefore you can stay as a KLM captain but frozen on that fleet and no more Dutch contracted jobs into KLM only French, they will move the 777 fleet to france and combine it with the Air France fleet, you have to learn french Sops operate with Air France pilots on the flight deck of what was your aircraft and see no more recruitment into KLM at all and all the Dutch jobs are slowly moved to France do you think you would consider that fair?
I am sure the Air France pilots would treat you well , but as a group if the KLM pilots were treated the way we have been by Air France as a corporation then their would be hell to pay!!
When KLMuk was a wholly owned subsiduary of KLM recruiting its own pilots to crew its own aircraft there was NEVER any attempt to join the big blue.
KLM are guilty of discrimination to this group, what they and the KLM pilots are not guilty of is racism.
By the way are you Canadian? as that is the most common country I think Otters can be found :-)

I hope that a few more of you join, you might stop giving us others a load of grief for joining 4 years ago, and maybe then you might come and say hello to us when we dead head you to and from the UK!

So there you go......... the selection process is completed and only twelve passed!!

Some very very good pilots have been rejected and given a hard time in the selection process. Then get a letter saying that they are not suitable to be KLM pilots. THEY ARE KLM CAPTAINS NOW!!! :\

Blue Pilot you are wrong.

We are ONLY Klc Captains not good enough to fly for KLM!!!!!!!!
However we are allowed to train our KLM colleages. The whole selection process has been a farce. KLM have once again discriminated against the British pilots.
It was mention that they had moved the goal posts during the selection,they didnt move the goal posts they moved the pitch.
Our Dutch colleage was asked what do you think of the British pilots? What sort of question is that in an interview!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The first part of the interview was in Dutch even though they new we could not speak the language.
The list goes on