Sorry, Finalgearup, that so-called 'image' that you want to protect, died and went to heaven many years ago.
Yes, yes I know, beaks well above ground effect, and all that, but 'tis h-i-s-t-o-r-y.

BA is just another airline now, and the pilots will cave just like many others have done.
The bloom has gone off the rose, a long time ago.
Better polish up that CV...you might need it, to beat the rush.

Final gearup

Don't worry, the no tie thing is only a passing fad. Our managers at Bacon world were big into power dressing. MCP tie mentality was followed by the pin striped suit era and then designer suits. Suddenly last year, the ties vanished. It all happened on the same day, it must have come down on high in an internal memo. Ties are not to be worn, this month they do not fit the corporate image! If only we had one or two individual thinkers:yuk: .

Ba Pensions problem
 

I can see that emotions have now trumped logic. The problem is emotion and a need to kick back at the Ba management will not pay the mortgage etc. Everybody needs to contemplate the likely end game I am sure W. Walsh has.

Our only trouble is Whoops that we ourselves are selfish and self serving when it comes to being generous to our junior colleagues. When I look at your circumstances, I see the generation that raked me over for £40k in my first years in the company just to keep the box payment system.

We have a history of accepting large cuts in our terms and conditions, just so long as you don't touch mine old boy. Only now that Tarquin and Ophelia are joining the company at the bottom after Papa paid for their licence, are these Sen <500 people beginning to see how much damage has already been done.

Well the winds of change blew through BALPA in the summer, and the team we have now is VERY focussed on looking after the very majority of the rest of us who are looking into the abyss.

If the vote is to strike, then strike it is. All the way. TO THE END. If you feel that you can't support your colleagues, then it it would seem that it wouldn't be the first time.

Ah there speaks the voice of reason, I did not think there was anyone in BA retired or not who saw the bigger picture!! There is no point cutting off your nose to spite your face.... surely some money is better than no money..... look at the overall package you have, not too shabby!.....spoilt children come to mind.....sorry!............:}

Does anyone else thing that some recent posters on here sound suspisciously like management? I love the way Whoopx3 thinks the APS trustees will go to court to block any NAPS deal. Given that any NAPS deal will only have been forced out of BA by a strike that threatens BAs very existence do you think the APS trustees will be moving to cast BA back into the maelstrom? I don't think so. It's a fair NAPS deal or no more BA. End of story.

PS Tristar500 - don't worry about Willy trying to take the company into bankruptcy. Apart from it probably being illegal the first thing that would happen would be that the administrators would take over the running and Willy would be out on his arse. Plus if the bankruptcy move succeeded then all the bigwigs in BA would be barred from being company directors in the future. Can you see them agreeing to a move that would cost them those lucrative positions? Me neither.

It would be killing the goose that lays the golden eggs, wouldn't it?

Everyone knows we're on the verge of making HUGE profits (the last quarter would have been OK without the £100m write-off due to the sale of BACON which hasn't even happened yet - go figure that!). Who's going to get the most benefit from those profits? The pilots or the directors/managers?

I would suggest that their Hobson's choice is more clearly defined than ours WRT sending the company bankrupt. I can still earn a similar package with Easy/Ryan/Emirates/Etihad, my life would go on if BA fold. I'd probably try Virgin 'coz they'd be bound to expand - only six years seniority to lose anyway.

Ba pensions problem
 

Sorry to disappoint you but I am not or ever was a member of management. I was just a bog standard longhaul captain. Just a point though the APS trustees have already written to APS pensioners over this matter to say they have an interest in the settlement. The APS trustees are 5 Ba management trustees ,4 APS pensioner trustees, and only 1 Ba employee trustee. Their interests have to be to ensure the viability of Ba to pay APS pensions in the future nothing else, to do otherwise is to break the law as it now stands. Much as many would like to ignore that fact, it is undeniable. I also do not think Ba would go bust . It has enough cash to sit out a 3 month strike at least. However when people come back Cathay style the union will have been broken in Ba and salary, pensions, and all will be much worse. Many years ago the Engineers tried a strike where the Bridge was just too far. They were beaten and have never recovered. union wise. They now just take what they are offered, the fight is out of them.

That was a fine strategy for Cathay management ten(ish) years ago, introducing a B scale in an oversupply labour market when their T&Cs were previously fantastic.

We're not in the same part of the pilot supply cycle at the moment, are we? Supply and demand drives Pilots' terms and conditions, and it is the most finely balanced it's been for a good few years right now.

BA pilots are productive (compared to several benchmarks) and prepared to agree to a sensible compromise on their pension.

They can't push my terms and conditions down any further as a S/H Captain at Gatwick. We have so few night-stops now, that I wouldn't be much worse off at a Lo-co. I don't have much to lose.

I've given enough to the company since 911 and I'm proud to have contributed to its survival and prosperity - but I have no more to give and I want something back now.

Cash to sit out a three month strike? Don't make me laugh! Remember while they are sitting there earning no money for three months they are refunding a huge amount of that cash pile back to the customers they haven't flown and compensating them. They are getting no new money in as forward bookings disappear. They are paying the leasing companies and the fuel companies. They are paying airports to park their aircraft. They are paying wages to all the other staff who aren't on strike. The shares will have been delisted. The institutional shareholders will be watching the value of their holdings collapse and will be breathing down the boards neck, and all the while BA are failing to use their LHR slots leading to them losing a significant proportion of these strategically important assets . Not only do BA not have the money to sit out a three month strike, I doubt they even have the balls to wait out a two week strike.

You seem to place a lot of faith in the ability of the APS trustees to influence the outcome of this situation. I'm sure they do, as you say, have a say. However this is going to be a back-breaking strike for BAs management and their options will be to come to the table and offer something decent or see the company go under. You may find the APS trustees having to take whats available in preference to nothing at all. You are not immune.

Ba Pension problem
 

Just some information from the interim accounts Ba has a cash position of 2,633m on short term deposit. I think that is more than enough to hold on for 3 months. Though I agree Ba would be a shadow of itself after bleeding away 1000m in cash which is what I think a 3 month strike would produce in losses. If it went through that, you could expect no quarter from the management or the city.

Especially as it would opnly cost them about £300M more to agree to BALPAs pensions solution. Which is about three times what the disruption in August cost them. If BA went through £1BN to save themselves £300M I think the board would be looking for new jobs before we would. Remember, as is frequently pointed out in BA News, that £2.6Bn is not BAs money. A sizeable amount of that belongs to the passengers in forward bookings. When the flights cease to depart then a huge chunk of that £2.6Bn is going to have to be paid back. Plus another £300M is going to have to be paid out to the fuel companies in that time with no revenue coming in. Plus aircraft leases.Plus wages. Plus rent. Plus, plus, plus. Doesn't look so rosy now.

My view:

BALPA have got a gun to BA's head, BA have a gun to BALPA's knees.

= No contest (IF) BALPA can ground 80% of BA's fleet for more than 48 hrs. I believe it can. Easily.

I hope they do do that. Every airline pilot in the UK has their terms and conditions based on the best in the industry. This IS BA. If the BA pilots end up worse off then it will filter down like rain on the rest of the UK pilot community.

I am lucky in being close to retirement with a pension that nobody can touch. But all power to the BA NAPS members. Be prepared and vocal in your willingness to bring down BA. This is a test of resolve - be it blind, stubborn, unreasonable or whatever. Don't blink; for all our stakes.

AP

Now there is the rub.

Will the city support WW and the board? Support him to the tune of £1000m, and reduce the airline to a shell? How quickly will his poition, and the boards become untennable?

BBC say £800m to be put into NAPS in breaking news.

Naps Deficit Funding Agreed
 

Looks like an agreement has been made and all done & dusted! See link below to official news release. BA shares up >4%

http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtm...1573&highlight=

... apart from the retirement age being at an unacceptable 65, the pensionable pay unacceptably capped to RPI inflation, the unfair sharing of future life expectancy changes of 75/25 (not in the employees favour) and the particularly unacceptable "pension in payment cap" of 2.5%.

So BA can only afford £500m and can't afford to make any extra annual payments? They said.

Did anyone honestly believe that? - post below if you did so we can say I told you so.....:}

Well they've suddenly found an extra £300m plus an extra £50m per year for the next three years. What's the betting they can find a bit more if they really try? :E

Let balloting commence...

AP

done and dusted i dont think so nowhere near what we expected!!!!!!!!!

Ba pension problem
 

The trustees have agreed a deal on their best financial advice. I presume the pilot representative will have voted in favour. Ba pilots will now have to seriously consider if a strike is in their interests. As I said before the trustees were the key people to approve any BA proposal not BALPA. Their duties were quite clear and they have done the best possible for the NAPS members. If BALPA goes over the top on this it will may be end of the union in Ba and any deal to save anything of NAPS in my view. Its unfortunate I know but its the only deal in town.