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g stall 13th Jan 2006 20:24

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 

Originally Posted by overstress
BAs employee costs (including pension contributions) as a percentage of turnover are lower than Lufthansa, Air France/KLM, Northwest, American and United Airlines.

Actual figures to prove your claim would be appreciated...

bmimainline 13th Jan 2006 20:26

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
I wish ALL at BA the very best. You lead the way and the rest will follow................................
Great to see BALPA being so pro active - about time!

Big Tudor 13th Jan 2006 20:44

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
overstress

It's now nearly 15 years since Maxwells plundering of the Mirror pension fund was uncovered. I think most peoples memory of Maxwell is as some fat bloke who fell off his yacht! IMHO the general feeling will be that professional pilots earning £50k a year can afford to make their own provisions for their retirement. Remember, the press will not let the truth get in the way of a headline!

"You lead and the rest will follow" is a brave but rather idealistic viewpoint. Industrial action by one group of employees in one company will not improve the conditions of the pilot profession as a whole, nor will action in one country. Striking workers have been sacked and replaced by cheaper labour before, and it will happen again. It will take concerted efforts by all pilots in all areas of the profession before any effect will be felt. People may remember the leaders with fondness and high regard, but they are often the ones who suffer most for their beliefs and convictions.

overstress 13th Jan 2006 20:47

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 

Actual figures to prove your claim would be appreciated...
Don't have 'em sorry, this is propaganda war not an Excel spreadsheet. I'm quoting a briefing document prepared by a member of the BALPA Head Office Team. For the onlookers, this is a team of BA pilot BALPA reps.

BALPA has also assembled a team of financial experts to closely monitor BA's activities in its campaign to explore the employees reaction to the pension deficit.

If people are interested, use the link I posted at the start of this thread and look at the video presentation.

ATB

Overstress

overstress 13th Jan 2006 20:53

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 

I think most peoples memory of Maxwell is as some fat bloke who fell off his yacht
Try saying that to a Daily Mirror retiree!

Well I think you're wrong, o big one! Pensions are big news. Brown has destroyed the pensions industry and we've just had a highly visible strike by British Gas engineers.


IMHO the general feeling will be that professional pilots earning £50k a year can afford to make their own provisions for their retirement
Do you somehow think that we don't contribute to our pensions then? The argument is that BA are trying to wriggle out of their contractual obligations because it doesn't suit an arbitrary business plan.

IMHO the public will understand the story:

"Most profitable airline in World with £2bn cash wants to rob employees of deferred pay"

Firestorm 13th Jan 2006 21:00

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
If public perception is a problem, change it. The public can be brought on side without too much trouble. This is an important issue, and will affect all of us in the industry. T&Cs in all airlines have been declining for several years (many of us now subsidise the company bottom line by paying for our training, not so at BA I know, but don't count on it for ever). This issue must be supported by pilots in other airlines and other unions.

ornithopter 13th Jan 2006 21:22

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
M.Mouse - just because a bunch of pilots sat on shuttle back up at the companies behest, why should I lose 40% of my pension? The ones who became stewards did so at BA's offer.

When we work really hard and get forced to go to work, the company say "this is what you signed up for". When we say "can we have the pension you signed up to give us?" they say no.

If you look back to threads about pay strikes from a couple of years ago, you will see me posting to say that we shouldn't. Again and again. This time its different.

It wouldn't be different if BA couldn't afford to pay despite good management.

It is different because BA can afford to pay, despite some considerably poor descisions (that were pointed out at the time). The company are feeding us propaganda at the moment - mixed with a small amount of truth.

Big Tudor 13th Jan 2006 21:28

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
overstress

If you could get the Sun or the Mirror to put your headline on the front page then the public would get on your side. Unfortunately the headline is more likely to read "Holiday misery for thousands as pilots walk out". Which headline to you think the editors are more likely to plump for, especially when the most senior line trainers salary is quoted as being the norm for all pilots?

Public perception can be bought (or at least influenced), but BALPAs PR team need to start working on it now. You can bet your bottom dollar that the BA team are preparing their battle lines already. Otherwise Joe Public will not give a shiny sh1te about your pension when you stop them from getting to Disneyland!

Human Factor 13th Jan 2006 21:30

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
To quote LCG (at a BALPA members/management evening with WW present to a new joiner on BARPS who had the temerity to suggest that his pension was cr@p):

"You knew what you signed up for when you joined."

So did I.

Edited for accuracy, thanks FlyingTom.

overstress 13th Jan 2006 21:49

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 

BALPAs PR team need to start working on it now
They have plans up their sleeves....

The popular press have picked up on it already. The Express (no I don't buy it) today said "Air travel chaos was looming as BA pilots prepare to walk out over pensions"

We'll see in the coming weeks who has the public sympathy.. the pilots working to the legal UK maximum faced with losing up to 36% of their hard-earned pension, or the fatcat managers on 200% bonuses, or even the shareholders receiving dividends (cash) whilst the company claims it can't afford to pay the shortfall in ... errr.. cash.

I will only briefly mention the large order for 777s, the news of which BA is surpressing so it can continue to claim 'can't afford to fund shortfall'

FlyingTom 13th Jan 2006 22:23

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
"You knew what you signed up for when you joined."

It was Lloyd, Flight Ops Director, who said that, WW said there would be no increase in company funding to BARP. Just for the record but totally agree with you AH.

Actually I didn't know what I was signing, I was told it was Industry Leading, I trusted at my peril. The company and BALPA didn't know either at that stage.

Here's how BA might plan to fund the "deficit". Two years time EOG Gatwick slots sold to GB for £500M. Meanwhile NAPS pilots accrual goes back to 60ths etc, saving £500M, imposed by Pension Regulator when company/Trustee talks stagnate. BA appear quite reasonable whilst workforce went on strike. One year later WW leaves BA with £750K bonus. GB gets new chief exec. GB buys 777's/330's. Just trying to blue-sky the issue!

BALPA are far better prepared than BA at this stage. BA have been jumped and are hoping they can string it out until March and the actuary's report. Before the strike we need to advertise the strike dates in the major press,a la Lufthansa. The pilots must appear to be more reasonable than BA.

PAXboy 13th Jan 2006 23:20

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
Non pilot and occasional BA customer here. There are so many issues and valid points, I'll itemise some, to make it simpler for you to shoot me down.
  • Public perception SHOULD be changed but it won't be.
  • Bear in mind that many British people think that BA mainly carries those who are not paying for their own ticket and will have less sympathy. [Yes, I know that is not the case]
    On these two points, remember that the Great British Public care about very little indeed that is outside of their own field of view.
  • The shareholders with influence are NOT the individual but the corporate and the pension funds and they do not care about individuals. The irony of that is just too sick to be funny.
  • The City are on the same side as WW but, even if he fails and is sacked, the City boys will still make money so they don't really care what happens. If BA falls to bits, someone will pick up the bits and make another airline. So they will carry on regardless.
Above all, in the highly personal passions that this issue raises, I suspect that there is a simple generational split. Those are are going to lose and those who are going to win are in two different generations.
The one side are those who have been working [flying] a medium to long time for BA and the other is those who have been working [administration] for BA for a short time. The problem is that the admin people have almost everyone on their side and I expect that they will 'win'. If win can be said to include crippling BA. But British 'management' has a habit of taking American ideas and taking them to the nth degree - far beyond what any American would do. The Americans and the rest of the world sit back and watch the Brits make a complete Horlicks of it and learn their lesson. WW may be Irish but I suspect that he has been selected by the board to make the next British adventure in management and teach the whole world a lesson.

Lastly, I suspect that the above two groups are split by an age line that runs at +/- 45. Above that and you are flight crew with much to lose, below that and you are management with nothing to lose. and therein lies the real rub. The management have nothing to lose and so they will fight. The pilots have everything to lose and so they will fight.

Sadly, I expect that the pilots will lose and the UK will, collectively, fall another pace down hill. That is no reason to not to fight but the UK will lose either and both ways.

As usual, I sit to be corrected.

Speedpig 13th Jan 2006 23:58

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
Please remember that this issue does not only affect flight deck.
There are even more who will suffer as a result of this pension "deficit".
So, BALPA needs to get all the other unions on side and make a concerted defence of "what we signed for".
There is a generation split... APS/NAPS/NAPS2 etc. Those that are around 50 years old with 10-15 years to go are getting more than a little worried about whether there will even be a final salary to have a pension (reduced) against.
BA is holding pension forums, but I know of no-one that has bothered going to one. What would be the point... it ain't going to get the pension sorted. The government should step in and force BA to make up the shortfall NOW from available funds.
Who mismanaged the pension? Not those hoping to recieve it, that's for sure.
Those under 40 couldn't give a toss about pensions because they can't see that far into the future. No disrespect (avoiding incoming) to anyone, but do you really think about retirement aged less than 40?

Personally, I believe I will still be here when Willie has gone. Bet he gets a better hand out than I do though.
:{

jammers 14th Jan 2006 04:41

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
You can be sure of that me ol' flower............Willie always puts his Irish roots first, and you can be sure when he jumped approx 100 of his fellow pilots at ALT while an active line pilot (by a position conveniently created by that smoothed tongue devil Barney) to of course pad his own exit(Barney), the writing has been on the wall for sometime..........call it the potatoe famine syndrome or whatever you want, but having been last man on the ALT seniority list for a decadeWillie didn't waste his time in the pub, but instead educated himself in Uni and union matters, well versed may I add.....
He has no friends(pilots) at his former airline ALT and takes no prisoners......
Standfast Speedbird!!!!!!!!:sad:

overstress 14th Jan 2006 06:25

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
Paxboy thanks for your considered posting. You make some interesting points but as you are pax by self-definition your posting has the 'feel' of an outsider to the issue.

Public perception will be changed.

Your bullet points are interesting and of course I'm aware of how share ownership is distributed in a large company.

Your 'split' you perceive is totally wrong and I'm sure other BA pilots will validate me. The NAPS deficit applies to the majority of BA employees, not just the pilots. Managers are in line to lose out as well and many of them are squirming uncomfortably at having to trot out the party line.

The pilots will not lose. If you could have access to the forum where BA pilots discuss these issues and if you visited our flight decks (sadly no longer possible, you'd be most welcome) you would see a strength of feeling like no other on this issue. The subject dear to most pilots hearts is the pension. We cannot leap from one employer to another like our management. We are constrained by seniority. Therefore we tolerate much mis-management, but we will not tolerate interference in our pensions.

Golden Ticket 14th Jan 2006 07:13

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
Don't let this company give away our retirements so easily without a fight. I never expect understanding from the public, they have their own agenda, they also have their own pension schemes and should be behaving the same. People should question the validity of their company's claims and why the 99% of the population have to allow for the 1% populations errors and failings.

I've got more than 20years to go before I can draw my pension. If we don't set a precedent now the company could try similar things in 15-20years time and cite the same arguements probably. Why can people not see that this is not just about our pension it should be about everybody's. So many pension schemes are being trampled under foot by greedy incompetent management and pension companies, time to stand up to them. That's everybody with a pension, not just BA staff.


Having seen the pensions DVD sent out, when one of the directors answers the question, 'Whose to blame?' and his answer is that it is not helpful to aportion blame here, you pretty much can guess whose at fault. It's not us for wanting to ensure a comfortable retirement for ourselves and our families.

frangatang 14th Jan 2006 07:37

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
Call me bob ayling stuffed things up and disappeared with a shed load.Skippy hung around for 5 years,did sod all,saw the exchange rate was still fine for a sunny retirement in perth then cleared off with another transit load of cash.The same wil apply to wee willie,another transit worker! Count me in at the line.

ZFT 14th Jan 2006 07:46

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 

Originally Posted by Golden Ticket
So many pension schemes are being trampled under foot by greedy incompetent management and pension companies, time to stand up to them. That's everybody with a pension, not just BA staff.

Isn’t this the sad truth. The problem is that not only have you to win the support of the general public, but looking at some of your non BA’s peers posts, them as well and that really is sad.
Anyway, for what it’s worth, you certainly have my support and good luck to all of you.

M.Mouse 14th Jan 2006 08:13

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
Paxboy, a considered and interesting posting. I am 52 and have few years to go and (potentially) much to lose. I, obviously, have many contemporaries around the same age.

I WILL strike and I have not met a colleague yet who is not of the same mind. We see this as the line in the sand. We have observed for years the cock-eyed way in which BA is managed and also seen those at the top being rewarded handsomely for their ineptitude e.g. Bob Ayling. I work extremely hard for my money, BA is a good company to fly for but the differential is far less than it was between us and other companies after constant erosion of our Ts & Cs while the core problems remain untouched. I have had enough and will not subsidise the inefficiencies any more, least of all by losing some of my pension. This issue will affect us for the rest of our lives.

The last actual strike ballot BALPA held was in the early 90s. The results were something in the order of 97% in favour with a return of ballot papers also around 97%. If this comes to a strike ballot that one will look like it had luke warm support.I will strike despite the risks.

WW would be foolish to underestimate the anger and resolve.

BANANASBANANAS 14th Jan 2006 08:14

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
You have my support chaps - and chappesses. Its about time the fat cats got a bloody nose. Any "non BA" characters who have had a pop at "highly paid BA pilots being greedy" might do well to consider that if BA gets its wicked way over this one it will set a precedent for yet further downward pressure on terms and conditions throughout the industry, and give management in orangeland and FR enough excuses to withhold pay rises and reduce benefits for years to come.

Good luck.

fiftyfour 14th Jan 2006 11:44

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
There is also another very small group who are also very concerned. All pilots who were 'unfairly dismissed' (ie made redundant by BA, which ignored the Dan Air seniority list when selecting for redundancy) now have a preserved pension with the BA NAPS pension scheme.
BA paid £1 to buy DA. At the time there was a £17 million surplus in the DA pilots pension scheme. This sum was originally transfered direct to BA profit/loss account. After Balpa negotiation, it was eventually agreed that £8 million would be used to upgrade pension accrued to date by 10% for those being made redundant (or more correctly - illegally unfairly dismissed as subsequently ruled by an industrial court two years later). Some of that £8 million was also used to pay for early retirement for some older captains.

However, £9million stayed in the BA kitty.

I simply mention this to show others out there the lack of ethics in the way BA is run. I advise BA pilots to fight for this cause. I think they will get a lot of support from the rest of us.

millerscourt 14th Jan 2006 13:03

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
BananasBananas Hang on old chap. You have recently joined SQ Cargo from RBA and you are now waxing lyrical all things SQ. Yet over the past few years SQ have reduced T & C's and there is nothing you or I as ex-pats can do about it. Look what LKY did to poor Capt Ryan Goh a Malaysian who was a Singapore PR and was sacked because he dared to put his ahead above the parapet.

PS Despite my advice to you not to live in JB you tried it and returned to Singapore:{

PPS What support can you give those in BA?

N Arslow 14th Jan 2006 13:25

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
Dear Nigels,
Please protect your pension. You are supposedly at the top of the British pilot food chain. When your Ts and Cs erode the knock on effect affects us all lower down.
The message should be the pilot works hard with safety and responsibility his primary concern. He has a fair pension signed up to on joining the company. If the company can not support it (although it can be proved that it can by the sounds of things) then shouldn't those managers whose responsibility it is to run the company be having their bonuses stopped/reduced. They afterall, receieve salaries - bonuses should be performance not attendance based!
Not a BA problem alone - a problem of the free market - however it need not be so terribly skewed.

PAXboy 14th Jan 2006 17:35

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
(still an outsider) Thank you for the further clarification of the reasons for the strength of feeling. I should make it clear that I sincerely hope that you win this battle. Having watched British 'management' at too close quarters since 1978, I too would like to see a line drawn in the sand.

I reckon that the key component of the argument that the general public do nt understand is 'seniority'. In almost all other (98%?) of British companies and institutions, this no longer exists and the City boys (I use the word 'boys' deliberately :suspect: ) will never have heard of it.

That link between seniority and being handcuffed to the list and not just being able to change company is NOT understood outside the airline world. Also, my guess is that, the LCCs do not operate a list as they have an essentially flat structure being one fleet and one collection of routes?

I only know about seniority as I come from a flying family and, of course, reading PPRuNe for some years. So, if you can get that message across in a concise and consistent manner - you stand a chance.

Shagtastic 14th Jan 2006 20:22

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
Headlines - 'BA crews join easyJet pilots on strike'...


Has a long overdue ring to it doesn't it.

egbt 14th Jan 2006 21:58

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
Overstress

PPL and BA gold card holder (many times) here.


Public perception will be changed.
Sorry old chap, many of us have had our pensions screwed up (Including my RAF and several company pensions), there may be sympathy for BA Pilots if the worst comes to the worst, but I don’t think there will be support.

P.S. Flying Cathay next week as BA £1k more expensive like for like, being ethically minded triple miles can’t compete with that. Food for thought?

EditorASC 15th Jan 2006 05:25

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 

Originally Posted by overstress
The whole point about our industry is that the seniority system means we just cannot up sticks and go somewhere else - we've done that already to get into BA.

Did it ever occur to you that the union bosses engineered it that way, so that you would be eternally dependent upon them, so they could forever keep their hand in your pocket?

If you could market your experience and skills, in the same Free-Market way that employees in other industries do, you could be master of your own fate, and slave to no unions or their bosses.

In the United States, union membership peaked at almost 35% of the working population in the mid-1950s. It has been dropping ever since, in the private sector. Today, it is just under 8%.

At the same time that union membership was declining in the U.S., the Great American Middle Class was growing, expanding and become ever more wealthy. That means there is an inverse correlation between union membership, and the standard of living, in the U.S. That should tell you something about how valuable unions really are, in the long run.

In the long run, unions don't create and protect jobs; they destroy them.

Robert J. Boser

Airbubba 15th Jan 2006 05:44

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
Uh, just for context, brother Boser crossed the United picket line in 1985, his employee number was 32909...

EditorASC 15th Jan 2006 06:48

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 

Originally Posted by Airbubba
Uh, just for context, brother Boser crossed the United picket line in 1985, his employee number was 32909...

I continued to work in my job with United Airlines. Dick Ferris, with the aid of pilots like me, kept the paychecks coming to all the other employees of United (including all the union mechanics, none of which honored the ALPA extortion line), so that those employees could continue to pay their mortgages, to keep a roof over the heads of their children, and food on the table for their families. If Roger Hall, Dubinsky et. al. had their way, all those loyal employees would have been tossed out on the street.

ALPA and APA are among the most greedy, heartless, and selfish bunch of extortionists that reside on this planet. They don't give a damn about the damage they cause others, in their quest for killing the golden goose which was laying the eggs for all employees.

The great AMR pilot sick-out, was just another example of that total lack of concern for anyone but themselves.

Robert J. Boser

Suvarnabhumi 15th Jan 2006 06:59

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
I don't think the BA Pilots will go on strike.

I don't think WW will rob the Pilots pensions.

What he will do though is ask for THE WORLD in working condition changes, allowances "restructuring", SCOPE agreements etc etc, in a nasty, protracted, and ugly scrap.

He is playing a tried and trusted game of hardball and the pilots will eventually give him HALF the WORLD (what he really only wants) in order to prevent BA meltdown. Classic WW tactic.

The senior guys want their full pension guarranteed and will only have 10 years or so left of poor working conditions. (besides they are senior enough anyway to avoid the crap)

The scared junior guys are on a new pension scheme anyway, won't be happy at all about the working condition changes, and will probably vote to shaft the senior guys. They won't shaft themselves or go out on strike to protect the pension of those who shafted them with the terrible new pension scheme. The ones who are in a lose/lose scenario are those in the middle of the seniority list.

The Pilots will be split 49/51 and give WW what he really wants, the optimum result for BA. Unprecendented massive cost / crewing savings to bring you in line with your main future competitors Emirates, Virgin, Etihad, BMI, Qatar, Kingfisher etc. WW will divide and conquer the BA Pilots and make them PAY through working condition changes for the pension that SOME of them are already owed!!!!

Do you think all those 777-300ER's will come with crew rest facilities etc???

Do you think you'll still be flying with Heavy crews? Decent time off downroute, nice hotels, allowances etc etc, speak to any Emirates crew and you'll soon get an idea of what can be changed!!

He's done it before and he'll do it again. He knows Pilots, he is a Pilot. He'll stop at nothing. The only answer?? 100% complete Pilot unity, but I think the damage may already have been done. :uhoh:

Roman 15th Jan 2006 07:58

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
EditorASC, you've hit the nail on the head about seniority. I can't see why pilots are so wedded to this bizarre system, other than that they have swallowed the line that it is the only possible way to organise their lworking lives. As you suspect there is a hint of union self interest there, as being tied to an employer will usually lead to dissatisfaction at some point which in other professions can simply be solved by looking for a better job elsewhere, but in the airline context means a resort to union protection. Increased job mobility - the free market in jobs and services - is what powers our economy and leads to a better standard of living all round, as well as for individuals who want to change their circumstances, and I can't see flying being left out of the market for much longer. It is a special job, but essentially not that different from a number of others. Sure it would take some adjustment and some very good management, but it needs to come.

yamaha 15th Jan 2006 08:15

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
Thanks Robert J Boser but I don't need your perverted sense of justice.

You may well have kept food on a few tables but your support and in fact the disgraceful American way of protecting finished un economical airlines removes food from tables world wide.

America needs to urgently wake up to the fact that your economical values are not necessarily welcomed elsewhere.

Once you have actively taken part in shutting down airlines that are in fact stealing business from economically sound ones please come back and comment.

Da Dog 15th Jan 2006 08:19

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
EGBT, flight to HKG for the next 6 weeks full to the brim, perhaps thats why its 1K more to fly with BA:ok:

jerrystinger 15th Jan 2006 09:58

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
Why do people fail to see that the airline world is NOT what it used to be and that it will become even more low cost - even longhaul. It doesn't take a genius to realise that cheap flights (£238 to JFk with BA) are not compatible with the current (flight and cabin) crew pay! Whether its pensions or allowances/agreements WW knows something WILL give!

The future's bright......for WW!

Hand Solo 15th Jan 2006 10:13

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 

The senior guys want their full pension guarranteed and will only have 10 years or so left of poor working conditions. (besides they are senior enough anyway to avoid the crap)
Error 1: Most long haul pilots are already approaching the 900 hr limit. WW can't get any more productivity, all he can do is try to replace the Bidline rostering system with Carmen. Then the senior guys have the most to lose because they'll start getting the crap they can dodge at the moment.


The Pilots will be split 49/51 and give WW what he really wants, the optimum result for BA
Error 2: Even with the all senior guys on the oldest pension and all the junior guys on the newest pension voting together, they still represent less than a third of all BA pilots.


Unprecendented massive cost / crewing savings to bring you in line with your main future competitors Emirates, Virgin, Etihad, BMI, Qatar, Kingfisher etc
Error 3:If you want to lower my work levels to the level of Virgin (750 hourds per year, any extra on overtime) I'd be quite happy.


Do you think all those 777-300ER's will come with crew rest facilities etc???
Error 4:If they want to use them on ER routes they'll have to so says the CAA.


Do you think you'll still be flying with Heavy crews?
Error 5: You can't fly long range without heavy crews, unless willy thinks he can change the flight time limitations too.

ojs 15th Jan 2006 11:59

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 

Originally Posted by jerrystinger
Why do people fail to see that the airline world is NOT what it used to be and that it will become even more low cost - even longhaul. It doesn't take a genius to realise that cheap flights (£238 to JFk with BA) are not compatible with the current (flight and cabin) crew pay! Whether its pensions or allowances/agreements WW knows something WILL give!
The future's bright......for WW!

While on the one hand I agree that BA should pay the pension that was agreed, on the other I can see that BA simply can't afford to pay its dues.

It's often said that BA has sufficient cash reserves to cover the debt in one payment, but my understanding is that the cash reserve was not built up to pay off debt. So all that money's simply not available to use.

The other claim I hear is that managers are only thinking of their bonuses in trying to come to a negotiated settlement. But surely if there is a reduction in pension, then those same managers would be affected as well?

Human Factor 15th Jan 2006 12:21

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 

It's often said that BA has sufficient cash reserves to cover the debt in one payment, but my understanding is that the cash reserve was not built up to pay off debt. So all that money's simply not available to use.
BA has been paying off other debt at the rate of £1bn per year for the past few whilst at the same time making more profit than any other airline and accumulating the cash reserves you state. On that basis, they can pay off the pension debt totally in a year without touching the cash reserve and whilst still making significant profits.

A debt is a debt. Why should the pension debt be considered differently to any other debt?


The other claim I hear is that managers are only thinking of their bonuses in trying to come to a negotiated settlement. But surely if there is a reduction in pension, then those same managers would be affected as well?
Many of the senior managers have already reached the government's pension cap therefore their pensions won't be significantly affected, if at all. The only way they can be rewarded for company performance is in the form of bonuses. According to the published accounts last year, the maximum bonus which can be awarded is 250% of salary.

M.Mouse 15th Jan 2006 13:34

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 

It is a special job, but essentially not that different from a number of others. Sure it would take some adjustment and some very good management, but it needs to come.
I don't intend to divert this discussion into one of seniority but the thing people do not appreciate is that we all (generally) hold the same licence and are tested bi-annually to the same level. The the only thing that differentiates us is time served and therefore experience.
How to you promote one pilot to Captain when both have the same qualifications and experience?
I smiled when I saw the quote above mentioniong 'good management'!

http://www.befairba.org/

issi noho 15th Jan 2006 13:46

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
Its only a month since you were singing Willie's praises for taking out 600 managers in the 'willie swings his axe thread'. Don't know why you didn't see this coming - reactions like lightning. You need to win this as its just the thin end of the wedge.

This is surely a court battle over contracts not a strike. you're playing into his hands - he wants shot of the people who cost him most. You will give him the excuse to take you on in a fight he will have prepared for and you have not. You can hint at the cards in your hand but don't bring out big trumps till you have to.

Don't be fooled into believing you're irreplaceable, no element within a company is bigger than the company itself. eg US air traffic controllers under Reagan, some Aussie pilots still carry a list of strike breakers.

There are people in the wings who will accept your jobs on terms lower than yours but better than they're on, they're rated on the types you fly, they have TRE's, they can do your work and they are sitting in jobs at home and around the globe waiting for it. They would be here in a heartbeat.

There are going to be plenty of companies messing with final salary pensions over the coming years; 40%-60% of companies depending on which research you follow. There needs to be a counter attack in the courts, it is the only way. You will not have public support for a strike, even over pensions, you may do one day but not yet, more companies have to act, more people need to be affected before a general strike could work.

Don't believe the public remember Robert Maxwell either, the public is made up largely of people who don't know what the daily mirror is let alone who spent its pension fund. There are not enough of the DM pension fund losers left and I doubt they have a voice even in the paper they once produced. The press is largely quiet following Rentokil's action, probably because these big media companies are going to do the very same thing in the fullness of time - it's economics and demographics.

Good luck, I know there is an element within BA that think criticism by the non-BA amongst us make us anti-BA but it isn't always true. We need you to win or there will be little hope of retaining any sensible level of conditions in the companies where we ply our trade. To be honest your battle is uphill all the way so do it right, you only have one go at this approach it must be successful.

Airbubba 15th Jan 2006 13:56

Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
 
>> some Aussie pilots still carry a list of strike breakers.

Sadly, AFAP never went on strike, the union convinced the pilots to resign en masse, and the rest is history scattered throughout the expat world...

Like you said, don't be fooled into thinking that you are irreplaceable, especially in this job market.


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