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-   -   An Honest & Uncensored Debate About Jet2 (https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/188005-honest-uncensored-debate-about-jet2.html)

silverhawk 14th Sep 2005 09:29

Odd Skipper
 
If you have a query about any aspect of the flight/operation then please please please raise it with the captain. Otherwise you are essentially out of the loop.

No-one will think any the less of you for asking a question. There is no such thing as a daft question. You can be sure that a captain will query anything he/she is unsure about.

You learn something from everyone you fly with, some good things, some bad. The trick is to be able to distinguish between the two.

Please be assured that despite your self-confessed low experience, you will know stuff that the captain doesn't. You will catch them when they make yet another mistake. We all make them, that's why we operate two crew.

Ask ask and ask again

Good luck

Pilot Pete 15th Sep 2005 00:19


However I have worked in commercially pressurised positions, and considering the money payed out in the Airlines, do not feel that Aircrew, or Captains have such a tough time.
You may not think so, but aircrew, and captains in particular are paid for the responsibility they take on their shoulders. How many other 'Managers on £60k' a year do you know that take the lives of hundreds of people in their hands each time they go to work? How many of them have to make decisions, perhaps only once in a career (but they have to be ready to make that decision at ANY time on ANY flight) that could not only affect the safety of the flight, but could, if they get it wrong, lead to the failure of the company? Not many I would guess.

I have had these issues thrown at me before and the above is always the answer I give, usually with the reply comparing us to doctors. Well, I would argue that only Surgeons and Casualty doctors have a similar role, as the average doctor can practice within his limits and as soon as he is not sure, he refers the case on to a specialist, who does the same, refering it to a more experienced specialist, who does the same, refering it to the Professor who is the expert in his field.

Doctors are paid for the responsibility they take in knowing their stuff and making correct decisions, the difference being if they are unsure they can pass the problem up the line. We cannot. We manage, we keep our knowledge current, we are checked on this every six months, we hope we will never have to use it, but just one day in our careers we may have very limited time to make a decision......and low and behold if we get that decision wrong......


PP

Norman Stanley Fletcher 15th Sep 2005 11:53

Odd Skipper

Like you I had another life before aviation but I have now been here a long time and over the years my views have changed. I accept there are many people working incredibly long hours in the outside world and many of them work under great pressure. You are, by your own admission, early in your flying career - hence the reason you have to work for Jet2! Like you when I got my first big break in aviation (with Channel Express as it happens!), I thought "this is the best deal in the world". I had fulfilled my ambition and it was great - I frankly would have paid someone for the privelege. The sentiment that at last you are doing what you want to do, soon changes as you face the harsh reality of unsociable hours, long periods of boredom and occasionally stressful moments when you feel at the limit of your skills. Taken over a period of years it adds up to becoming a highly experienced professional who can live and work under great pressure, work incredibly unsociable hours and be relied upon to apply technical knowledge and skill to make the right decision at the right time.

As you rightly point out that is no different from a number of professionals - and they are highly rewarded for their years of skill building and experience. I had an operation recently and in the 'pre-flight chat' from the surgeon I asked him if he ever felt out of his depth. This surgeon was a re-assuringly experienced guy who said that 98% of what he did he now did not have to think about any more - he just did it and also spent time within that teaching other aspiring surgeons to do the job. He did say that every once in a while he comes across a situation (2%) where he is absolutely at the limits of his ability and it is touch and go if he can save the situation and by definition the life or future well-being of his patient. That is the same for us - most of what we do is totally routine but every now and again we face a situation where every ounce of our technical and flying skill is required to recover a situation. That ability to do the '2%' is what we expect to be well rewarded for. We have taken many years to get to that position and know that in each flight a situation may arise where we have to step up to the plate and be counted. The fact it does not happen most of the time does not mean that we are not worth the big rewards that top professionals receive.

My argument with Jet2 is that PM and his cohorts are doing incredible damage to the cause of professional aviation in the UK They offer old aircraft, poor salaries, low adherence to SOPs, an absent safety culture and interference from above - the classic African/Eastern European solution to running rubbish airlines. I make no apologies for saying that their success is a threat to all that has made UK aviation among the safest in the world.

The Potter 15th Sep 2005 18:28

Well said NSF. Couldn't agree more; this isn't just about how much we earn or whether or not we deserve it when compared to other industries. The leap from being a freight operator, with old heaps of junk flying around the skies, to low class passenger scheduled carrier is a worry when that same bullying, unaware attitude is transferred with it.

PM is cutting costs in all of the wrong places. He buys clapped out aircraft from the local Mojave desert scrap metal merchant. He then fails to utilise them to their full potential as they spend most of the day either tech or sitting on the ground at MAN. He treats 'his' people with complete disdain & not an iota of respect. He fails to listen to his crew on anything as he is a control freak. They just might be able to save him some money if he did.

Old Skipper, the best of luck with your flying career, it sounds as though you have a good attitude & you will probably go far & have a fantastic time. When have the good fortune to leave Jet2 you will realise how much better this wonderful industry of ours really is. There are plenty of other issues that could be brought up on this thread to demonstrate to you just how unconcerned your airline is with the saftey of its crew & passengers but this thread is not the place for it. It will probably have its day: the past comes back to haunt you in avaiation, please remember that PM & ID. :mad:

Shuperstar Loadie 17th Sep 2005 17:10

NSF,

You are a very bitter and twisted old man and with this attitude you have I and my fellow crew members at Channex/Jet2 are glad you are no lomger with us and pitty the poor company that you work for now.

Potter another person who is bitter. Stay where you are and dont throw stones coz as you say in aviation the past does come back to haunt you.

There are faults at Jet2 but most people work hard to rectify them or bring these matters to the right persons attention. Please both of you dont be bitter coz you never got on the 737.

N Arslow 17th Sep 2005 18:49

Gentlemen,
A very interesting thread and the usual mix of postings.
How this reads is so much more compelling than say... the thread elsewhere for whether it is better to reach your first million flying in Hong Kong or the Great Sand Pit!
What sets this aside is the reality of being a pilot in the UK - pilots DO have a keen sense of right and wrong, an awareness for the business aspects but with focus on delivering a safe product.
I get paid to fly too, but at low level, single pilot looking for flashing blue lights etc. Thankfully I have less to worry about concerning safety - if I am unhappy I don't go and noone will question that (or at least, not with a knife hidden behind them).
Those who can should stand up and fight, those who cannot afford to lose will look elsewhere. For me - I am just grateful for what I have...

Norman Stanley Fletcher 18th Sep 2005 03:15

Shuperstar Loadie

'Please both of you dont be bitter coz you never got on the 737.'

I now fly Airbuses - I daresay I will manage to overcome my disappointment over not flying a 737!

757operator 19th Sep 2005 10:39

Wow! Do you fly any of those 10 slow-brained ex-Caledonian A320's that are about the same age as Jet2's 737's?

Bob de Bildere 19th Sep 2005 12:15

The Potter,

You say “When have the good fortune to leave Jet2 you will realise how much better this wonderful industry of ours really is.”

A look at some of your past posts on PPRUNE, copied below, makes me wonder where you think the "wonderful" world is

On Ryanair

“Got to say part of me agrees with Prob 30. We are all getting a bit sick of easy & Ryanair pilots whinging on about their pay & conditions. You have an option guys: you can always leave.”

On Euro Celtic

“This apalling airline has taken the worst concepts of flagging out, paying for ratings & bonding agreements & put them all into one melting pot to produce the most inferior management system operating in Ireland or Britain. As I have said: you are far better out of it & all the very best of luck to you in your future careers. Don't let these bunch [email protected]#<£*s put you off.”

On BAC Express

“I'm speaking from absolute first hand experience, Tosh. They are a truly dreadful airline, they think nothing of you as an employee or your life outside of work. If you are BHX or EDI based you'll be clocking up a staggering 200-250 hours per year if you are lucky. You fly at night with no wx radar & usually no autopilot (F27). They make promises that they frequently break to the point of downright lying: & the thing that I hate the most is that they overcharge guys like yourself for next to useless type ratings. BAC have leeched off the pilot shortage & preyed on those at the bottom of the career food chain"

pilothouse 20th Sep 2005 11:10

Pilots that have problems with Jet2 seem to be the ones who don’t accept that it is basically a one-man train set. Most of reckon that he has a proven track record and - so far - we are trusting him to get it right. We have heard the stories but the general impression is of a friendly and capable individual and we are happy to let him run it his way. His commercial success should lead to rapidly moving careers and better pay and conditions.

Unfortunately, if you get on the wrong side of things there is nowhere to hide. In a large airline you can be a thorn in management’s side for decades and get BALPA to protect you, but not in Jet2. Leaving is about the only option and this is why there are some very bitter employees and ex-employees.

At first sight Jet2 comes across as an employer with the ethics of a Victorian mill owner, so how come most pilots seem happy?

1. From the start, everyone you encounter is warm and friendly. Then you discover that if you give a bit and get a reputation for being pleasant and flexible, they will bend over backwards to help you. But go in there and thump the table before you’ve established a track record and you may never recover the situation. Just like any normal non-flying job, really.

2. Jet2’s safety ethic has been well and truly hung, drawn and quartered in previous posts. The main problem is simply that the infrastructure has not grown to match the activity so we don’t get enough follow-up and certainly no glossy incident summaries. However, what we do get is a no-blame culture and this is worth a million flight safety magazines. We also have an onboard atmosphere that is far more conducive to flight safety than the us-and-them of some well-established airlines. There is no evidence that top management holds safety in disregard - for example, there is no pressure on fuel uplifts because they don’t want a pilot to fly with less fuel than he is comfortable with. However, there is obviously a view that an airline should be run first commercially, with safety dovetailing as required. Jet2 would not be the first airline to do it this way.

3. The aircraft are indeed old (about the same age as some of the 757’s and 767’s of Monarch, Britannia and MyTravel) but generally well-maintained, despite what you may read above. The spare aircraft are not sitting around tech! It is just that with cheap aircraft Jet2 can afford to have spare ones to protect the schedules.

4. The aircraft are a delight to fly and the “steam gauges” are not a problem. Jetavia, the displays you would seem to prefer were in fact a factor in the Kegworth disaster. Are memories really that short?

5. The routes and their timings are about as perfect as you will get, though Manchester does get a considerably better deal than Leeds. Elsewhere in Jet2, maybe in Scotland, some pilots would seem to hardly notice going to work at all, in which case they are getting quite a good deal despite Jet2’s below-average salaries.

6. Consultation? There’s no BALPA or similar but if there is anything you don’t like you can simply pick up the phone. Recently I got a letter from the MD inviting me to reply to him personally if I had any comments about the forthcoming rostering improvements. And there’s a rep if I want to complain anonymously. Again, just like any normal non-flying job.

7. Interference? I've rarely had less interference from an employer, so I just get on with the job. Okay, the edict about the APU is irritating but there is a certain logic to it, and anyway I have sole discretion if I want to bend the rules.

8. SOP's. I can't imagine why anyone thinks that we try to avoid SOP's. They aren't very well presented but there are some gems that few other airlines have spotted. Everyone I fly with tries hard to follow them except maybe some of the contract guys but they will be leaving.

BUT! - despite the positives, Jet2 is far from perfect (where is?) and things will have to change if pilots are to be retained in the face of the ever-tightening jobs market. Pay, terms and conditions are indeed poor and few of us will hang around for ever just because it’s a very pleasant place to work.

flybywire 20th Sep 2005 13:20

Dear Captain Norman Stanley Fletcher.............:hmm:
Please check your PMs....
Grazie!!

FBW:)

Pulp Fiction 23rd Sep 2005 17:57

I couldn't agree more with NSF, The Potter, X-Centric et al. I had the misfortune to work for Jet2 & I found them a thoroughly disagreeable company. They bully the crew when you work for them, position cabin crew by train, which they have to pay for themselves, stop them their £100 bonus even if injured whilst working, & then continue to bully you when you leave by witholding references & making demands for monies that you really don't owe them! They threaten court action to anyone who even slightly differs from their biased point of view & they don't listen when you tell them that they have a potentially lethal captain flying their aircraft....

The theme of this thread is the safety of the travelling public & it should be a priority with any airline: safety first then profit, not the other way round PM.

Shuperstar Loadie 23rd Sep 2005 20:56

As I work at HQ Jet2 in Bournemouth please tell me Pulp how you could have been bullied by 6 or 7 attractive ladies? Has one got a bit of a problem being told what to do by women?????

Pulp Fiction 25th Sep 2005 12:00


As I work at HQ Jet2 in Bournemouth please tell me Pulp how you could have been bullied by 6 or 7 attractive ladies? Has one got a bit of a problem being told what to do by women?????
Well, S. Loadie, you possibly know full well that I am not referring to the lovely girls who work in Ops & Crewing. They are one of the few saving graces of Channex: they put up with quite a lot of crap & are very definitely understaffed, undervalued & underpaid by the company. All credit to them for constantly firefighting without even so much as a hose!

However, you cannot help but to walk through the doors at Channex & realise that the management team know only one style & that is to do things their way or not at all. The aircrew manager is a puppet who is so scared of losing his job that he just will not stick up for his crew: he is nothing more than a listening post. There are pilots who literally foul their trousers every time that PM walks into the crew room but have a lot to say when he is not around, some of it quite sensible & logical, they just daren't approach the man, or if they do it's to crawl up to him: "the answer is yes, P, now what's the question?"

Forgive me S.L. but you possibly don't fly, if you did you'd know that the cockpit gradient is totally wrong with this company. If you are a captain then you are regarded as part of the management team with all that that entails, if you are an FO then you are 'just' a member of staff. The problem with this is that your opinion is simply not regarded, you are good to simply fill in the paperwork. Had Channex listed to at least three FOs about a certain captain &, in fairness, listended to a very senior captain who took up their case, then we would very possibly not have witnessed the scenes on a Greek moutainside last month.

When you come to leave Channex then the bullying continues, examples: 1/ on first request for the return of your uniform; if you don't hand your uniform back we'll report you to the security services. 2/ if you don't work your four month notice period, that's right folkes, FOUR MONTH NOTICE PERIOD, then we'll charge you for every day that you are short by an extortionate amount. 3/ if you leave us within one year of joining then we'll charge you £5,000 even if you were 737 type rated & even if you leave on day 364.


Things need to change on the Jet2 side of things. Costs are being cut in all of the wrong places but the main change needs to be in attitudes from the management. You don't need to treat the staff who may disagree with you like ****, or the staff who simply want to leave the company like ****! It doesn't have to be like this. :ugh:

topkapi737 25th Sep 2005 18:55


Had Channex listened to at least three FOs about a certain captain &, in fairness, listended to a very senior captain who took up their case, then we would very possibly not have witnessed the scenes on a Greek moutainside last month.
That's quite a claim.You already have your probable cause do you and of course no Brit would make the same mistake?Is arrogance like that very common in Essex...you certainly sound like a Jet2 guy.


SOP's. I can't imagine why anyone thinks that we try to avoid SOP's. They aren't very well presented but there are some gems that few other airlines have spotted. Everyone I fly with tries hard to follow them except maybe some of the contract guys but they will be leaving.
More arrogance...

X-Centric 25th Sep 2005 20:33


That's quite a claim.You already have your probable cause do you and of course no Brit would make the same mistake?Is arrogance like that very common in Essex...you certainly sound like a Jet2 guy.
Sorry Topkapi737 but Pulp Fiction is making a very valid point. Please don't always take it so personally when any of us refers to a contractor. Of course the enquiry should tell us what happened to the Helios aircraft but this particualr captain was really bad & Channex ignored the problem. He allegedly had to nearly go off the end of the runway before Channex did anything about him. It's part of the whole with Channex... the management : staff gradient is out of balance & the captain : FO gradient is also out of balance & this has the potential to be downright dangerous.

Yes, Brits can screw up, this isn't a national thing either believe me some of my colleagues are British & some are good, some are bad & one can't keep awake long enough to know whether he is good or bad :eek:

exrotarybooty 25th Sep 2005 20:59

As a piece of very interested SLF in this debate, I notice that the word 'Honest' is used in the thread title.

The Potter states:

"He buys clapped out aircraft from the local Mojave desert scrap metal merchant".

Is this honestly true?

Pulp Fiction states:

"There are pilots who literally foul their trousers every time that PM walks into the crew room."

Is this honestly true Pulp? or Fiction?

As 'literally' means 'actually', (according to my English teacher many years ago), I wonder how these pilots bowels will react in a real emergency on the flight deck, just when we down the back are relying on them to do the 'professional aviator' bit. There was a joke in my time about two guys pulling off an emergency landing, and one asking the other in the smoking ruins, "Can you smell anything?" to which the other replied, "Smell it?!! I'm SITTING in it". It was just a joke though.

Moreover, I'm surprised that Jet2 want these uniforms back so promptly if they are constantly being fouled by pilots, unless it's in the interests of hygiene.

Let's try and keep it 'honest' cos we believe you guys.

ERB

toppledgyro 25th Sep 2005 21:14

I don't often bother to post anything on PRUNE, but as a current Jet2 pilot I've been following this thread with interest like many others.

I would like to register my agreement with Pilothouse's point of view. I suspect that the rest of the 'silent majority' feel the same way. Unfortunately, it is often only those with an axe to grind who feel strongly enough to put pen to paper - which is unfortunate and tends to give outsiders a very inaccurate and biased view of the subject. Nothing in life is perfect!!

cactusbusdrvr 26th Sep 2005 03:31

TopKap, you seem to be very pleased with yourself but if you fly the way you post then you have got to be the worst example of a contract captain out there.

It's been a while since I flew the 737 but I know that flaps 5 and 220 kts is putting a hell of a strain on the flap tracks. If you use Boeing limit speeds all the time then you are just abusing the aircraft. Slow to BSEC, then start flap extension. If you get hosed by ATC (who doesn't) then boards out, gear down flaps on speed will get you in. We always called the gear the Mexican speed brakes because it works and there are no gear doors to rip off. Got to give the French credit, speedbakes WORK on the aircraft they design.

A 3 degree glideslope is 300 feet per nautical mile. If you are putting the gear down below 1500 feet AGL (5 mile final) then you are flying an unstable approach and you better have briefed this technique and have your sh## together, i.e. no adverse winds or wx to contend with. Final flaps for any carrier I have ever heard of are required to be out by 1000' above the airport VFR or by the FAF IFR.

God forbid you ever try to fly the 757 because if you try your stunts then it will eat your lunch.

Are you advocating landing unspooled? That's not a great recipe for career longevity. I just read where Quantas and UPS have been testing flight idle descents to the FAF from criuse altitude. Even on a 767 all they are saving is 800 pounds of fuel. I can piss that away with an extra 15 minutes of taxi delays or running a tenth higher Mach speed or more than 2000' above or below my optimum altitude. It's efficient and the Quantas way is safe since they only go to the FAF but it is a lot of work for just a little savings.

I have flown with new F/Os all my career. One of the last new guys I flew with had zero turbine time (he was a high time DC 3 and Beech 18 captain). All you have to do to get the respect and admiration that you seem to demand is to let him fly and talk him through what he plans for the approach before top of descent. That way you can offer suggestions and you don't get surprised on final. Generally all I ever add to a F/O's approach briefing is "stop before the end" and "make sure the aircraft is reusable".

The Potter 26th Sep 2005 14:50


"He buys clapped out aircraft from the local Mojave desert scrap metal merchant".
Is this true? Yes.


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