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-   -   An Honest & Uncensored Debate About Jet2 (https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/188005-honest-uncensored-debate-about-jet2.html)

Trip Switch 4th Sep 2005 15:19

X-Centric


"How about ATC informing a crew shortly after rotation that they ..."have fuel spraying from the right wing..." & the passengers calling the cabin crew to inform them that they could see liquid coming from the wing. The Decision? Hell, lets carry on because the leak ceased at approximately FL120!"
Very dodgy posting this. I choose not to descend into a what, when, how and why discussion, nor do I feel it necessary to justify the actions of the crew who IMHO acted quite properly.

Suffice to say, not only are you wrong in detail, but you have notably omitted the precautionary diversion into BOH. Trust me, you've picked up the fag-end of a story here. Best left alone.

I wish you all the very best. Try not to let it eat you up inside.

Trippy

X-Centric 6th Sep 2005 22:53

Trip Switch, here are the facts, & they are the facts, my friend as relayed to me by both the Captain & the FO who operated this particular flight.

They left MAN bound for MJV. They were notified of the fuel leak just after rotation by the tower. The FO confirmed the fuel leak, as it was spraying out of the right wing. The cabin crew were also alerted to the leak by panicking passengers seated at the rear right side of the aircraft. They continued to climb & the leak ceased at FL120. They continued to MJV without any tech stop. When asked about the implications to flight safety, with regard to his actions, the captain stated that there wasn't much of an imbalance on the fuel gauges, that the leak stopped at FL120 & he didn't want to disrupt an MJV flight as PM was often on this route!

In MJV there was no fault found so they brought the aircraft back into MAN, but this time the fuel leak ceased at FL 150!

The fact that an experienced man would take such an action just goes to show how much commercial pressure PMs dictatorship puts onto his crew. This is one of many appalling breaches of safety standards that goes through the very fibre of Jet2's operation. The truth.

qwertyuiop 6th Sep 2005 23:04

Lets hope the public hear these stories. They can then chose who they fly with based on their safety rather than the cost!!

Farty Flaps 7th Sep 2005 00:20

Just read thru the whole post. A few points if i may.
£3500 take home 737 uk charter/ newboy locost schedule......normal.
Call crewing after flight...uk charter/ new company..... normal.
CRM stands for crew resource management not cockpit.

As for the rest well ,flown them once on a company ticket. Man lgw delayed three hrs, nice day, no atc issues, tech problem. Return was one hour late no pressurisation . Flew back at 8000 or something. After about 25 minutes of flight time saw a big airport below . Took me a while to realise it was stn diue to the time we had been airborne, still dont know why Asked for another wine, bar closed. airborne another 25 mins. Having flown man stn (at 250 kts) a few times i know how much wine i can drink in said flight time. Utter disgrace. Could easily have got another 175 ml in.

Seriously though i refuse to accept a company position flight now until its changed to ba. Which was actually cheaper than jet 2 as a late booking. Its my ass , better the devil you know eh.

Trip Switch 7th Sep 2005 00:34

X-Centric

Forgive me. I do not wish to pooh-pooh some very obvious concerns that you have. However, to suggest that crews are running round almost paralysed with fear from making a safe or correct decision due to the conversation they may or may not have on the ground when they get back is somewhat stretching it a bit.

I would venture the "PM often on this route" remark was supposed to be a comic throw-away add-on.

I would also like to add that on another similar occasion to the one you described, (except that at 2,500ft when the Captain went back to have a look, there was no visible leak) the crew made a precautionary diversion into BOH. The fault (a popped fuel vent valve - doing what it was supposed to) was rectified, the aircraft refuelled and off they went. No rants. No tea and biscuits. Not even a phone call asking them to justify their actions. Nothing. Not that day, not the next nor in the weeks that followed.

We are grown up people, capable of making grown up decisions and as pilots (both left and right seat), that is what we are employed to do. That is what PM employs us to do. You can't really imagine that in the drive for the dollar, he would be happy for the crews he employs to take risks that would see his baby sent to the wall. So what if he rants from time to time. It's his train set. We are supposed to be big enough and ugly enough to look beyond that (I certainly cover one those requirements :} ).

Trust me, as someone who has faced it, if he's wrong or if you have justified your decision, he will apologise, admit his mistake, thank you for your decision/vigilance/hard work and be the first to get in the round at the bar afterwards.

I'm sorry that you feel unable to stay in what I find to be a very happy working environment and have done for many years.

I wish you the best.

Trippy

edited for typos - late night!

Pilot Pete 7th Sep 2005 11:27


- CEO is a potentially dangerous bully who likes to shout and rant at anyone from Service Air to Check In staff to Pilots.. He reduced an Aircrew to tears in MJV recently prior to departure just because they used the APU on the ground.

A CEO who thinks absolutely nothing about interfering with a turnround & issuing B0110ckings especailly if his blessed APU is fired up on stand, & upsetting the entire crew. A crew, by the way who then had to operate a flight back to the UK in an upset state! Flight safety? Fit to fly?
CHIRP was designed for just this sort of thing. Happened once in a previous airline I worked for with the MD turning up on the FD before flight trying to 'encourage' the flight crew to accept his new cost saving idea of a 'voluntary' salary reduction! Unbelieveable! CHIRP Director got involved he felt it such a serious flight safety issue and the MD was warned that if it occured again his airside ID would be revoked.


- The use of APU for shutdown is now not permitted unless the cabin tempertature is +30 -10 - it's going to be a cold yorkshire winter for crews
Again, serious safety implications, both for passengers (as noted, the 'weaker' members of society may suffer with such a policy), not to mention flight crew performance at a critical time - pre-flight. CHIRP would seem a reasonable avenue once again if they just won't listen.....


- Roster stability is non-existant. We check-in with Crewing after every rotation to see what changes there are for the crew. It's like being on permanent standby - you can't plan a social life with any certainty.
I have worked under these conditions for a charter summer season and I was seriously fatigued at the end of it, without realising or understanding fatigue until it was too late. I made a serious safety error which was not picked up by the captain, probably for a similar reason and there but for the grace of God go I. Only solution is to stick it out and unify to force negotiation through a recognition agreement or to vote with your feet.


- It's been a hard summer for many. Frequently rostered for 7 days of duty. Sometimes only getting the legally required 1 day off. They are working towards 5 days max duty but it may be too little too late for some. Minimum rest between flying days is common. Finishing on a late(ish) and starting on an early has been frequent as well but seems to be improving a little lately.
Same as the point above.

There is a 737 operator just down the road in Doncaster which is actively looking for direct entry captains and experienced F/Os. They have 40+ years charter experience behind them and market leading terms and conditions. Starting pay is similar to that quoted on this thread, but the rest of the package is significantly better, with roster stability, block window protection (can't change a duty more than 2hrs off your rostered times or you can refuse it), no more than 3 early starts in a row and many more days off than CAP371. Oh, and you can sell some of those back if you want at £500 a day for a Captain or £350 a day for an F/O. And they operate out of Bournemouth and will soon start services out of Manchester. Crews are positioned by Hallmark cars or on scheduled flights, they don't have to pay for anything like this upfront, but with the company culture as it is very few would not pay out on the odd occasion there has been a cock-up to keep the ship on track. They have a superb safety culture and ranting and raving at staff is simply unheard off. Take a look if things are that bad. You could do a lot worse.

PP

Bart O'Lynn 7th Sep 2005 11:55

Sounds rosy at donny pete. What a shame i turned it down. Still i can only deal with so many arrogant wannabe ba tossers in one life. Conditions might be contractualy better (grandfather conditions from by) but the bosses opinion of you and arrogance arent.

X-Centric 7th Sep 2005 17:23

Trip Switch, it sounds very much as though the crew to which you are referring handled the situation very well, as it should be. The fuel leak that I write about was the complete opposite. It was unsafe in the extreme.

I do believe that many of my colleagues are absolutey terrified of losing their jobs if they cross PM or ID & to that end will not always be thinking clearly. The warnings that I received, when I unfortunately joined these cowboys, about always staying on the right side of PM were astonishing to anyone who has been a captain with any other airline. I sincerely believe that the hierachy of this company has the latent potential to pose a very serious impact on flight safety.

Rest assured that CHIRP have been informed about serious errors at Jet2 & by a number of people, I believe. As I've stated: my hope is that they begin to listen, to cease bullying their crew, to allow the engineers to make decisions when needed & to let the crew, who are unfortunate enough to have to stay, do the bloody jobs that they are paid to do.

If they keep on losing crew at the present rate then they will be forced to continue to employ captains who think nothing of carrying out fly pasts at approx. 10ft above the runway during the launch of a service & contractors who have 'done' just about every airline in Europe & beyond & can't find a position anywhere else because they are just marginal & known to be.

Lucky Strike 7th Sep 2005 22:57

Maybe, Farty Flaps, maybe. Available from the CAA:

CAP 737: Crew Resource Management (CRM) Training

and also:

CAP 720: Flight Crew Training: Cockpit Resource Management (CRM) and Line-Oriented Flight Training (LOFT)

Would you correct me on the flight deck (or should it be cockpit) for such an oversight?

As you posted a while ago under Un-helpful, Un-Crew Orientated, Arrogant Captains: “Bitchiness is a way of life in this industry”…

Chuffbaby 7th Sep 2005 23:02

I too worked for Jet2 and have since moved on. There are a lot of issues raised here that I believe have been submerged for far too long. If there was ever an airline which is in desperate need of collective representation (a Union) then Jet2 must be the prime candidate.

I personally have a great deal of respect for PM's drive and energy and one has to admire his business acumen. However, I would absolutely agree that there serious problems concerning the lack of a safety culture at Channex. Most concerns raised by crew are disregarded and all the critical decisions are taken by ID/PM who have neither the depth of knowledge nor qualifications to consider the flight safety implications of under-resourcing, undermanning and generally operating to the tightest possible margins. It may be good for profits in the short term, but my personal view is that the balance is firmly on the commercial rather than safety side.

My advice to my former colleagues would be to leave when the opportunity arrives. I have yet to find anyone who regrets the decision to go because other airlines invariably offer better lifestyles, better pay and treat their employees with more respect. Channex seems to be forgetting that it is very much a pilots' market at the moment.

There is of course the issue of a punitive £30K bond and the fact that many former F27 crews relocated at their own expense to the northern bases. The company has of course knowingly put you over a barrel on this one, so if you cannot get out, you should focus your energy into setting up a Pilots Union. It is a legal entitlement and it will strengthen your position immeasurably when it comes to addressing the issues that concern you all.

Talk to BALPA en masse and take your case to the Chairman, Capt Mervyn Granshaw. A number of contacts made by various Channex employees directed to Reg Allen have been puzzlingly ineffectual over the last few years. If BALPA will not get involved, just set up your own for starters. No-one likes blowing the whistle to organisations like the CAA (not to mention the potential implications for any individual caught doing so by the management), but you clearly need the individual protection and collective bargaining power that a Union willl afford you. Other airlines find that it works much better for ALL parties than putting your head in the sand and thinking that any complainers must be pure malcontents or troublemakers.

Best of luck!

PS Try and stay "on message" if you are posting to this forum. It would be a shame if this thread had to be removed with the threat of legal action against potentially libelous posts.

pol1wx 8th Sep 2005 10:40

Hey here is an idea! If you don't like the way the company is run........LEAVE!


I'm sure Ryanair would snap you happy chappies up.

:ugh:

The Potter 8th Sep 2005 18:55


Hey here is an idea! If you don't like the way the company is run........LEAVE!
Pol1wx That's just what a lot of the staff at Jet2 are doing, leaving. And if they have the good fortune to join Ryanair they will receive a stable roster pattern, they won't have to call into crewing at the end of every duty day, they'll earn far more money, fly brand new aircraft not heaps of taped together junk & get first class training from a company who knows how to operate a B737 as it was meant to. They will join an honest company who make no false promises, what you see is what you get. I'm sure much the same can be said of easyjet & Thomsonfly. So let's not turn this thread into another opportunity to bash Ryanair, select another one for that issue there are, unfortunately, many misinformed threads that you can find.

The guys at Jet2/Channex have real issues with regards to flight safety & the way in which they are being treated has an impact on their, & their passengers, well being. If the management refuse to do anything about matters then they have the chance to air their views & even fears on this website & via CHIRP. It may just improve their working lives & enhance their passenger's safety. Hope springs eternal, Baldrick! :O

Op checked Satis 8th Sep 2005 18:58

Just a note regarding the level of add's,whilst i don't know the
average for Man the 9 LBA A/c certainly average less than 2 , generally the industry target

rudolf 8th Sep 2005 19:37

Same for Manchester, average of about 2 per aircraft and all pretty much trivial stuff. Engineers seem to do a pretty good job.

Homesick 9th Sep 2005 08:52

I once refused to take an aircraft due a tech problem which resulted in a hour delay. I also returned to stand last week which resulted in a two hour delay. I have been tech down route. I have not had a phone call or felt any pressure from management about my decisions.

Like many airlines with a shortage of flight deck they will employ contract pilots in the short term. Jet2 has not hesitated in sacking the undesiarble ones.

I do not feel any pressure to compromise safety.

Potter. Aircraft may be old but they are maintained to a high standard. There are hardly any deferred defects and the ones they have are rectified promptly. You also seem to know how much better it is elsewhere. How many other airlines have you worked for? Ever spoken to anyone who works for Ryan air? I have. They are put under far more pressure than us.

Jet2 is not perfect. Terms and conditions are not good and pay needs to be improved to stop a mass exodus.

763 jock 9th Sep 2005 12:41

Just wondering what a type rated 757 Captain can expect? Most charter operators start at £64K ish, so are they filling the vacancies?

Arkroyal 10th Sep 2005 11:23


My abiding memory of him will be 'early morning prayers' where all employees at the Bournemouth office had to turn up for the morning briefing given by the Ops Officers and supervised by PM himelf. Often after a night of freight operations in the middle of a UK winter they would have a number of difficult situations to handle like aircraft diverting all round the country due fog etc. After the briefing by the Ops guys, they would then be subjected to public abuse by PM in front of all the secrataries, suppliers, engineers etc and told how terrible their decisions were etc. It was a truly dreadful and demeaning sight and absolutely repulsed me (and virtually everyone else watching).
Hear Hear Norman.

I voted with my feet to get out of Channex, just before two good friends were lost in Guernsey (no implication of corporate guilt here).

topkapi737

Your attitude worries me more than a little. If all you see around you are problems caused by others, it is a pound to a pinch of **** that YOU are the problem.

If it wasn't that you are still posting, I would have thought you might have been the late ex employee who rose to fame three weeks ago.

GWYN 10th Sep 2005 14:17

I just couldn't resist posting the following comment from an close acquaintance, whom I referred to this thread:

"Many thanks for your email re. P. Me..... I was able to read all the comments and most of them just reinforced what I've been saying for 16 years!! The man is a bully and a complete 'nutter'"

Odd Skipper 10th Sep 2005 18:01

Haven't been in the Airline business long - FO with Jet2 - (ignore stupid ID, it's impossible to get name you want).

I may not know many other Airlines, or have a great deal of flight experience.
However I have worked in commercially pressurised positions, and considering the money payed out in the Airlines, do not feel that Aircrew, or Captains have such a tough time.

Go and have a look in any other industry at a Management position earning £60K and find me someone who only works the relatively short hours we do. 9-5 ******** - they work 8 to 8 minimum, usually later and sometimes weekends too.

Fatigue and Safety in this Industry are obviously important, and should never be ignored, but should also never be used as an excuse to complain if they are not genuinely an issue.

My personal belief is that all employees should look for continuous improvement within their company. Too many people I've seen so far look for ways to stop others improvements (to balance this, I have seen many others actively working very hard to achieve savings, meet slots and times).

EG this APU SOP. I've heard a dozen times "someone will get killed" - please could someone explain how this will happen? As you've all said that the Management doesn't understand, well neither do I - please explain the exact danger. So far the only problems I've witnessed with this are the GPU tripping out, resulting in APU start and a 2 min delay.

APU use at Captain's discression - seen many Captain's decide to use the APU for various reason's (heat, GPU from airbridge or unknown reliability of GPU), none to my knowledge (and I'm sure they'd mention it during the six hours we spend together) have received any mention from the Management.

The Pay and Conditions granted are not the best in the Industry - but doesn't the grass always look greener!! - Heard two people mention Thomson as an unpleasant environment. But I wouldn't use a few people's advice stop me applying to them if I was thinking of joining them, I'd reserach it a bit more in depth.

In fact that's probably the main reason I posted here, just to give one more person's view.

I await my flaming as an inexperienced pilot - but not an inexperienced human being ;) .

Trip Switch 11th Sep 2005 01:40

Odd Skipper, dear chap.

The reason for the concern regarding the APU policy is that unfortunately not everyone who works around the aircraft (ground handlers, caterers, fuellers etc.) has the required understanding of the potential danger that a running engine poses. (For 'engine', read 'bloody great Hoover').

A few months ago, after taxiing onto stand and having shut down the No.2 engine, one of our less aware ground handlers thought he was being helpful by moving the steps into position at L1 whilst his colleagues were still trying to connect the GPU. On a dark evening, when there were 6 or 7 handlers running around the front of the aircraft, it was purely by the grace of God that I even spotted this chap, only a few feet from the No. 1 engine (still running and sucking furiously - er... that's the engine, not the handler) and moving even closer. Much leaning out of the window, pointing and shouting quickly followed.

He meant no harm and genuinely thought he was trying to help, but nearly ended up as a bowl of chips with ketchup, ten feet further back. It still makes me shivver. I hope this has at least in part gone some way in explaining why you keep hearing that "someone will get killed". I'm sure others will have similar tales.

Even so, I have no particular problem with the APU policy and accept that I must remain highly vigilant until both engines are shut down. However, I also reserve the right to file an ASR when things are not safe.... as little or as often as that may be.

Nice point about the reality of threads like this. If someone is honestly going to base their career decisions on a couple of postings from people they know nothing about, wwwweeeeellllll......... Best of luck to them:ok:

Kindest regards

Trippy


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