Not so sure about scraping the bottom of the barrel - it all depends who turns up on the day. Surely, RAF VC10 or C130 pilots are quality applicants?

With regards to BACX pilots, the agreement is that anyone who applies gets an interview, even if their application is so bad that they would never have been invited to attend if they were from another airline. So the BACX pilots have a head start!

Sadly, the reality is that many of the BACX applicants show little or no enthusiasm for joining BA and few have done enough preparation. How can you work for BACX and not have a clue about the Oneworld Alliance or how Terminal 5 will be good for BA?! Willie Walsh - who???? Or you can't even explain why you want to work for BA?

There is no hidden agenda, the jobs need to be filled and are there for you to take. Do your preparation and then do some more. Show lots of motivation at the interview. And, finally, don't have the attitude that BA owes you a living.

rhythm method

I don't know who Hot Wings is, but I can't help wondering if he has an insight into recruiting, and is possibly expressing an accurate (though general) description of a proportion of BACX candidates?

You can't deny that every BACX applicant has an advantage over anyone else, as they are all guaranteed the opportunity of presenting themselves personally for interview.

At the interview stage, it is my personal opinion, that BA couldn't give a stuff whether you are a capable pilot or not (which is why BA pilots are no better than any others!) If you subsequently don't perform at the sim stage then, bad luck, perhaps you had a bad day, we all do occasionally!

However, at interview, they are going to want to filter applicants in some way. It is up to you as an applicant, to discover what that way is, and prepare for it!

You may very well disagree with BA's chosen method, but if you do, their filter has already started to work!! Rather than resorting to some ridiculous 'conspiracy theory'. I suggest you should be asking, not why did 188 of my colleagues fail! But rather; what did the 12 who succeeded do differently!

On a personal note: I don't know if any BA recruiters read pprune, but if they do, I would imagine it would be very difficult to interview anyone from BACX without having some pretty negative preconceptions!

You have your colleagues to thank for that!

You may also like to confirm that your quote of "Over my dead body" even IF it is accurate, was made by a senior MANAGER, and is the opposite of the position originally adopted in "BALPA discussions over merger..."

Please fill in the blanks for us.

Good luck

Tandemrotor,

I do actually agree with you that BACX candidates have a real starting advantage in being guaranteed an interview. I also totally agree with Hot Wings, that if the candidate has not done his/her homework on BA, OneWorld, and all the other issues currently affecting BA or will do so in the future, then they shouldn't progress to the next stage.
BA do not owe anyone a living.. indeed if the candidate couldn't be bothered to prepare, then I would query their motivation entirely to their occupation. But of the 188 who don't get through, do you really believe they ALL couldn't be bothered?
Certainly not everyone is going to make the grade, but if even half got through to day 2, then your approx 90 candidates get whittled down by 90%. Do you really think that is a normal attrition rate?

I am not going to get involved in BA bashing, as they have provided income to my family since BOAC days, and I do think they are still really high up most pilot's aspiration list (maybe not as much as it used to, but there are still a huge number of applicants), but if you compare BACX success rates to those of 'outside' applicants, I think you may be quite shocked at the difference.

As I said, I have no personal agenda; on my day I made a b@lls of the sim, but the applicant with me was excellent, displayed all the right crm points, good decision making, good flying, etc and still was deemed unsuitable.

It doesn't make any sense for there to be any agenda, BA have seats they desperately need to fill, and yes it is their trainset, so they decide what hoops you have to jump through, I merely wonder at how poor our guys are at getting through those hoops.

Please don't allow this to degenerate into another 'them and us' slanging match. That is certainly not what I intend from my post, I simply am putting forward my viewpoint on the matter.

Cheers, RM

The difference between the success rates of the BACX pilots and other pilots is because of the fact that BACX pilots will be invited to interview, even when they have not passed the application screening process. It is as simple as that! If everybody who applied was given an interview the success (or lack of it) rates would be comparable.

It is not possible for me to comment on the outcome of a particular sim but I would like to say that sometimes "questions" are raised on day 1 that need to be answered on day 2!

RM

I am genuinely disappointed for you, and I hope my previous post didn't appear personal. I fly with people who, on this occasion, have been unsuccessful. I find it hard to understand why. I was unsuccesful at my first attempt, and due to market forces, had to wait 7 years for my second attempt! I hope you don't have to wait so long.

HW

You said you are unable to "comment on the outcome of a particular sim", but isn't it the case that all BACX candidates CAN receive a personal debrief?

Or have I got that wrong?

Tandemrotor - I am not aware of any BACX candidates receiving a personal debrief following the sim. I don't think that there is sufficient time.

You are correct, all BACX candidates are able to receive a debrief if unsuccessful. The debrief after the sim is not done there and then, rather the candidate contacts Cranebank after receiving the official 'Dear John' letter!

Tandem, nothing personal taken... unbelievable sensible discussion on a BA/BACX theme!

Cheers RM

I can categorically state that there is NO hidden agenda regarding BACX pilots. The recruitment is done by line guys, most hold a training appointment and are often unaware of the guys previous company. If they are good enough on the day they will get in - simple as that.

Rythm Method

you say you fly with good guys evey day -maybe so but perhaps they didn't perform at assesement, or maybe that your criteria differs from the BA selectors.

And yes, before anyone asks i am part of the recruitment team.

Cap PB,

I spy a non-sequitur in the above as well.

;)

3Greens,

I referred specifically to the candidate in the sim with me on my assessment day. He demonstarted excellent CRM qualities, good decision-making, excellent teamwork, and even flew the sim very well... yet he didn't get in. I fail to see what more he could have done.

I, on the other hand, had no-one to blame but myself on the day. All parts of the non-tech were above average, but my flying let me down.. my problem.

It's just that obviously the selection criteria mustn't be the same as we were expecting. At least now there are a couple of guys from the recruitment team posting, so your input is appreciated.

All the best, maybe next time, eh?

RM

Pit Bull

yet again a posting from an outsider desperate to be in.

Can you just explain one bit.

Exactly how is BA reeling from it's competition?

But hey, never let the facts get in the way of an anti BA post. Pathetic.

I mentioned on a thread a while ago that my mate, who is a BA RJ secondee to BACX, was commenting on the fact that the fleet is now run by a "bunch of ex-J41 GA amateurs".

Now obviously these are in the minority but if they are running the fleet and their attitudes are seeping through maybe its that attitude that\'s letting people down at Cranebank.

NN

Just to be sure, is this a reference to me not being in BA and wishing I was?


I'm not going to get into this, for several reasons. Firstly its a thread divergence, secondly it might involve commercially sensitive information. Thirdly I'm no commercial genius and only see one small segment of the market. In that segment BA are definitely hurting. If you wish to discuss it more, lets go to PMs.

Call it pathetic if you wish. It was intended as a constructive critiscism in that I feel any company that believes it is the top of the pile should be very careful to take note when potential employees start acting in a manner that suggests otherwise.

Its really the same thing as the CRM mental model / confirmation bias thing. It is risky to just write it off as a problems with the applicants. Earlier in the thread it was stated that the applicant often did not have a clear reason for wanting to work for BA. Is it not a least possible that the reason is because the advantages are not anywhere near as clear cut as they once were? Isn't that something we should all worry about? Getting the right people - well, it doesn't get any more important than that.


<nods> Could well be. I'm not very clued on the internal working at BACX. I have a few mates there as well but I'm kind of out of touch.

CPB

Ok so we obviously don't see eye to eye (see other thread) but I amopen to debate.

I'm off out now as all good Catholic boys should be on Good Friday ;) .

To be continued...

NN

Fair enough.

Sorry about the back in the box comment btw, probably was a bit inflamatory.

CPB

rm

If the guy you were in the sim with was BACX, couldn't he have been debriefed on his performance, and the reason he was unsuccessful?

Does sound pretty harsh.

No debrief is given on the day, but you can get in touch later on for a telephone debrief. I don't know how thorough it is cos I'm still awaiting a response.

Again this is an advantage over other applicants, and may well be worth its' weight in gold, so to speak.

We'll find out in short time why he didn't make it and then see if the criticism is valid.

RM

Pit Bull

see pms

Heres My Two Pence Worth,...

I don't have a problem with what Mundy posted. In fact I agree. I had seecond thoughts about going to BA b4 my interview because although the pay is good, BA does not stand for BE ALL.

I' disagree with some views that BA pilots are best in the country/world. BA pilots are not the best pilots ..no..no..no. My airline have dropped people in the past due to various operational reasons who have now got jobs with BA. British Aiways pilots are the best for British Airways! This does not mean that they'll qualify to fly for or be successful with others.

The BA selection procedure is solely in place to ensure that the candidate fits into the BA corporate mould and can be remoulded into something that is required by the company. Essentially there are good pilots and bad in every company, we all do the same job and should have respect for one another as pilots irrespective of the company that we should work for.

I have seen great handlers and operators turned down by BA and their opposites given the thumbs up by BA. I've trained amongst BA pilot cadets and they were no better than anyone else, in fact they had more failures/incidents then those on some other courses. However those of you who are, or used to sit in front of a jetliner know that actually flying the aircraft is only part of the overall package.

BA is a huge successful company that employs many many thousands of people from all over the world. As a result alot of procedures are standardised and must be followed strictly hence selection. The HR department in conjunction with Ops run the company. Employees are effectively carefully chosen 'drones' (sorry but its true) that must adhere to these rules and procedures in a which makes BA what it is today. BA works as a company therefore their theory works FOR THEM. If u are successful, good for you, if not, its an experience.

I was not successful with BA because I did not apparently 'want it enough'. This is true. I may not want to work for them, but i'll definately fly with them. I fly aeroplanes for a living and I'm happy with that. I wish I could get paid more but i'm happy as when i fly i know i'm truly in command in my Euro-electric-jet.

And for all of you boeing vs airbus guys/gals....an aeroplane is an aeroplane!!!

Would it be possible for a newhire to live in and commute from Amsterdam? Or do you have to relocate?

V1

Well, that depends on your definition of Commute.

If its weekly, then yes. You could bid for a lot of tours. However be advised that (on my fleet - 737 at LGW) tours are on the decrease and a becoming more sought after by the commuters as a result. I think that is true amongst the F/Os as well.

You would definitely spend a lot of time in B&Bs though, or have to get a room somewhere. It really depends on your priorities - I would recommend relocating rather than commuting, but thats just me. It would certainly be possible not to.

CPB