Attention all BA wannabes!
 

British Airways recruitment...
...what you MUST know before you sign that contract!

British Airways is recruiting at the moment, mostly for type-rated pilots.

We think it is important that you know ALL the facts, warts and all, before you sign that contract.

The following is a BA Copilots' perspective... forewarned is forearmed!

(A) COPILOT PAY

(1) Basic Pay:
Copilot Basic Pay is £40500 plus an annual increment for every full year served (to a maximum of 23 increments).

Long Haul (B744/B777) increment = £2175
Medium Haul (B757/B767) increment = £1650
Short Haul (A320/B737) increment = £1575

e.g. total basic pay for B744 after 5 years = £40500 + (4 x £2175) = £49200
e.g. total basic pay for A320 after 7 years = £40500 + (6 x £1575) = £49950

(2) Incentive Pay (flying hour pay):
Copilot Incentive Pay = £8 per flying hour (fully taxed)

Long Haul pilots fly 800 - 900 hours per annum
Short Haul pilots fly 700 - 800 hours per annum

Long Haul Copilots' Incentive Pay approx = £6800 per annum (850 hours)
Short Haul Copilots' Incentive Pay approx = £6000 per annum (750 hours)

(3) Time Away From Base Allowance (meal allowances):
TAFB = £2.58 per hour between report at Base and Release at Base (taxed at approx 7%)
All pilots' TAFB approx 2500 - 3500 hours per annum
All pilots' TAFB Allowance approx = £7740 per annum (3000 hours)

(4) Total Gross Pay:
e.g. total gross pay for B744 after 5 years = £49200 + £6800 + £7740 = £63740
e.g. total basic pay for A320 after 7 years = £49950 + £6000 + £7740 = £63690

(B) PENSION

BA has closed its Final Salary Pension Scheme to all new joiners. This scheme allowed up to 2/3 final salary to be taken as pension. BA contributed approx 25% of a pilot's pensionable salary to this scheme.

The new scheme (as currently proposed) is significantly less beneficial. The scheme will be a "Money Purchase" type, where the liability rests with the employee. BA is proposing contributing only approximately 9% of the pilot's basic pay... far less than currently contributed by the employer in a number of equivalent schemes (e.g. Virgin Atlantic).
Under the current proposals it is unlikely that a pilot will receive more than half his final salary as pension (depending on investment / stock market performance).

(C) SENIORITY

All aspects of a pilot's career in BA are governed by his/her seniority.
There are no merit promotions, and all bidding between fleets, as well as for all rostered work, is on the basis of seniority.
New joiners become "First Officers" (two stripes) for the first four years. Subject to satisfactory performance, a pilot will be promoted to "Senior First Officer" (three stripes) after that time. This is unaffected by previous experience.
The retirement rate within BA is reducing sharply over the next few years, so a new joining pilot's seniority will not increase significantly for a number of years.
Moreover, it would appear that the BA Compulsory Retirement Age (currently 55) will increase (probably to 60) in October 2006, due to European Age Discrimination Legislation. This would effectively freeze a pilot's seniority at that point in time, for a period of up to 5 years.

(D) FLEET BIDDING

New joiners are "frozen" on their initial type for the first 5 years in the company. After that, a pilot may bid, in his seniority, for a move to another fleet. Having moved to another fleet, a pilot is then frozen on the new type for a further 4 years.

However, as mentioned above, fleet bidding is in seniority order and depends on availability of places. It is possible that a junior pilot may be "stuck" on his current fleet far longer than the minimum "freeze" period, especially as a result of the forthcoming retirement age changes (see para. C).

(E) WORK BIDDING

BA fleets (except LGW Short Haul) have the Bid Line work allocation system, allowing pilots to select a full month's roster in seniority order.

Due to the seniority system, there is very little choice of trips or days off for junior pilots (either Captains or Copilots) on any fleet.

The bottom 20% of the seniority list receives what is known as a "Blind Line" (basically an auto roster but with the opportunity to express limited preferences, which are not guaranteed).

Blind Line Holders will typically work most weekends and Bank Holidays - most days off will therefore be allocated during the week.

Junior pilots also get very little choice of trip destination... new Long Haul Copilots had better enjoy going to The Gulf and East Coast USA - you can probably forget Australia, Cape Town, South America, and the Far East !

Additionally, new pilots can expect to carry out 2 or 3 "Reserve Periods" (i.e. standby) a year, consisting of 21-day blocks of permanent standby.
Reserve Periods are also allocated in seniority order.

It is likely that a new joiner will receive Blind Lines and Reserve Periods for his first 4 or 5 years in the company.

However, when the seniority list "stagnates" due to the changing retirement age (see para. C), you can probably add another 5 years onto this figure.

(F) TIME TO COMMAND

Pilots bid for Command Courses in seniority order. Broadly speaking, the top half of the seniority list are Captains and the bottom half Copilots.

No allowance is given for previous Command experience in other airlines.

BA currently has about 3000 pilots.

A pilot needs to be higher than (approx) 1600 on the seniority list in order to get a Short Haul Command.
In order to get a Long Haul Command a pilot must be above (approx) 1000 on the seniority list.

The time to achieve Command has increased markedly in the last couple of years. This is due to the slowing retirement rate, and recent changes to the pay system, which have made Short Haul Commands more attractive to senior Long Haul Copilots.

Approximate time to Short Haul Command = 10-12 years
Approximate time to Long Haul Command = 16-18 years

Again, if the seniority list "stagnates" due to the changing retirement age (see para. C), you can probably add another 5 years onto this figure.


(G) STAFF TRAVEL

All British Airways staff have the option of purchasing reduced price tickets, after one year's service.

Additionally, SFOs and Captains receive a couple of enhanced "management concessions" per annum.

However, the most important issue is that staff are on-loaded in order of date of joining... and most of our aircraft are quite full these days!

In short, the staff travel perks are worth very little when you've only been in a few years, as it is very hard to get a seat on the aircraft (especially on popular Long Haul services).

You would be surprised how many of our pilots buy "normal" tickets from travel agents or off the internet!

(H) IN SUMMARY...

BA is a good airline, with reasonable terms and conditions, and reasonable job security. This is mainly due to the high level of membership of BALPA (about 92% of all pilots), and therefore a good collective bargaining position - the general terms and conditions reflect that situation.

However, don't believe all the hype - you may well find that, being a new joiner, your lifestyle is poor and choice very limited. In particular, you will be away on trips almost every weekend... not good if you have a young family.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and a number of pilots have left BA over the last couple of years, to go to airlines as varied as Easyjet and Emirates.

Moreover, forget what you heard about BA pilots not doing much work - many of our Long Haul pilots will reach the legal flying hour limit in a year (900 hours), and we have Short Haul pilots who have flown in excess of 800 hours in a 12 month period too. It's no holiday!

Forewarned is forearmed...
...good luck!

A very informative view IMHO DeadR.

I guess there will always be a rush of applicants when BA open their doors, but I must admit I think many will look at these thoughts and consider it not to be worth it.

Thanks for sharing that with us.

PP

Whatever way you look at it pilots get shat on when they first join a company because of this seniority system. No doubt about it, reserve periods and crap rosters are the way for the first number of years. BA is not as bad for this as some other airllines from what Ive read in this post though!

Thought staff travel was after 6 months service, and that loads are virtually irrelevant if you book an ID80 firm ticket? Unlikely you get bumped off unless a major issue had occurred with booking (never happened to me!)

Correct me if I'm wrong!

Yes it is now available after six months with the company. An id 80 ticket is now merely a way of paying twice what an id 90 standby ticket costs for a slightly higher priority. You can only buy an id80 ticket 21 days before you fly and then you have to wait to see if they firm up your ticket. Which they only do if the flight isnt busy; they do not wish to run the risk of offloading you and then having to pay for your accomodation. This defeats the original object of the ticket. Destinations such as Australia, staff travel during busy periods will not even take your money if you want an id80. That is if it isnt already imbargoed for all staff. It merely gives you a slightly higher priority. Staff travel is still useful to singletons but of no real value to families. id 80s are by no means firm seats anymore.
That said I have enjoyed using my staff travel over many years, i have never booked anything other than id90s because I think id80s are not value for money. Staff travel has its perks if you know a despatcher or flight or cabin crew, club or first upgrades are common. There is still a family feeling just between staff. People like to upgrade as every so often when you fly the favour will be returned.
Oh and after 7 years you are entitled to one free ticket per family member on your list. After 10 years you can pay 90% to firm up your ticket. After 20 years you get a free firm.
Comment from a BA engineer.

Sick This forum is not the appropriate place to raise your arguments against BA's terms and conditions - we have a forum expressly for that purpose. Nor is it the place to discuss the merits of industrial action by employed commercial pilots for whatever reason. This forum is for those who are yet to be employed.

The fact is that any wannabes who may be in a position to join BA over the next couple of years will find that the terms above are those in force. If any action within or by BA changes those terms, then the new terms will no doubt be reported here, which is all this forum needs.

As for ID tickets, they are all standbys, whether ID90, ID80, or ID50. They do not have the status of firm tickets, and you would not displace a fare-paying passenger when holding one of these tickets. As PaulW implies, Staff Travel is of little use to junior married employees with children in a busy airline - you're better off buying discount firm seats from a bucket shop or from Touchdown.

Scroggs

The rule with staff travel is to do your homework. The info on loads is available and it just takes some time and a little knowledge to decide which flight are realistic. The nightmare stories are from people who try to get back from Orlando in the school holidays or Singapore with a low priority.

After 6 months all BA First Officers are given a free ID100 ticket with a Club Class priority. If you are single, take leave outside the school hols and choose your destination well. I have never had a problem in 5 years and have been to Oz, Mauritius, Dubai and Barbados, all Club class.

Those with familes should just be realistic in the their aims and make sure they have 'back up' tickets.

No one would expect to get priority over a fare paying pax, what kind of airline would that make us?! As you get more senior the task gets a bit easier.

It is a great resource as long as you know the rules and are realistic in your aims.

9% contributed to the Money purchase pension pot! That is absolutely RUBBISH from the suposed best airline in the UK!

Even in the charter world on the A320 we get 15%.

Scroggs, if I read it correct this is a jobs and interviews forum. The reply pertains to BA interviews and the conditions on offer. Agreed, this whole thread would perhaps have a better home in T & Cs, but theres not much point putting my reaction in T & Cs when the thread is here, is there?

Care to move it - after all, your so called 'wannabies' can't apply anyway, whereas people who can or have, will find deadroddington's information very interesting. I onlly stumbled across it, cos the forum heading, 'interviews', caught my eye.

To be quite honest a lot of guys will not even look into the terms of their contract if they are offered a job with BA. They will just take whatever is on offer.
I am just about to start my ATPL's and when i finish all of my training i will be applying to everyone who owns aircraft for a job. But at the end of the day i will take anything. As long as it has two wings and puts hours in my logbook. Be it hours of night freight, or pi$$ poor money. I would rather be doing that than trying to keep licences valid and sitting on the ground looking up all the time.
What gets me is when i speak to other wannabes that just seem to be fixed on flying for a 'big' company. I recently spoke to one guy who didn't even consider flying something smaller than a jet for his first job. Flexibility is all, is it not? Tell me if i am out of line (i'm sure someone will) but in this day and age the bean counters know that low hour pilots will fly for very little, because, people like me want to fly airplanes. You could take everything that makes the job rewarding away, the money, the lifestyle, the people and i would still want to fly planes.

Sorry, i think i've gone off on one.

Rgds, Expedite.:ok:

Sick yes, you're right - the topic is here. However, the topic raiser does not make or invite comment about BA's terms for new joiners, but rather just states the facts. That is all we need here. I have no reason to doubt your motives nor arguments against these particular terms, but this is not the place to raise them. To make it clear, this forum is Imterviews, Jobs & Sponsorships within the Wannabes forums. For those who are currently employed by BA, and who have an issue with these terms and conditions, either your own private Pprune forum, or your own private BALPA forum, are the places to gain support for your case.

All we are interested in in this forum are the remunerations a new (and low-hour) recruit can expect - from any company - not the politics that generated those terms.

Scroggs

Well you've convinced me now deadrodington ...

Goodness gracious what an outrage, "only" £63 grand plus a 9% pension contribution for a 5 year FO :eek: :eek: :eek:

In fact I'm so angry that I think I'll just withdraw my application, stay here in my turboprop RHS and keep on earning my £19,500 and 5% pension until BA improve their offer. After all, the missus can supplement the household income with her flying instructor pay, that's pulling in another £500 or £600 a month at the moment ... of course it does get a bit less than that in the winter :(

On the bright side, at least in another 2 or 3 years at this place, when I get my turboprop command, I can make the big coin and earn £34,000 for the rest of forever :rolleyes:

And maybe even if I'm really lucky I can save £25,000 over the next few years and buy a type rating so I can go apply to Ryanair :ok:

Mate take a look around this forum and the backgrounds of the people who frequent it ... and then waltz on over to ppjn.com and compare 95% of the other pay packets on offer ... if you seriously think that any out of work FATPL holder, or flying instructor or turboprop / RJ driver or whatever, is going to hesitate for a single fraction of a second before they sign on the BA dotted line if they get the opportunity, then you are in cloud cuckoo land.

I couldn't give a continental croissant whether it's "as good as it used to be" or not, the BA job is still the biggest, most prestigious and one of the most secure airline jobs in the UK.

If I for one, get the chance to sign myself up to those terrible old T&C's you're trying to scare us all with, then I won't stop partying for a month :ok:

I don't think he was trying to scare you, just being realistic! Better to tell it straight than to look at it through rose tinted spectacles.

So many of the old skippers in my company keep banging on about "get into BA then you'll be sorted". Well by looking at deadroddington's post I think I'll give it a miss, even though my company only pays 7% into my pension :} BA's changed and isn't that far off other companies packages.

In the 5 years to earn the £63k you could be a skipper in my company on just under £80k and you'll be home every night!

Swings and roundabouts.

The problem that has occured with posting the origional post in this forum is that it should not have been done so and should have been moved. BA are not after pilots with no experience. They're not after the turbo prop pilot yet. They want experienced and specific type rated pilots. And these pilots will be coming from airlines that have better pension provisions than BA now has.

The point being made by some that they would jump at the chance to fly for BA because they're in a second rate communter outfit that has never provided a descent package, is missing the spirit of the origional post.

It is a sad day when the airline that so many have aspired to join because of the percieved kudos, has watered down it's package. So now the pension is little better than the second tier turbo prop operators. As I said earlier, even the jet charter operators offer better conditions. That is what is dissapointing to those that have the required experience.

Boeing you're quite right, it probably should not have been placed in Wannabes - and now it isn't there!

Scroggs

I thought the original posting was very uesful, accurate and concise, so thanks!

Its a very hard decision for FOs at the moment. Most of the charter carriers are stagnating, so if you are still RHS you'll be there a while. How long, no one knows, because none of the companies will divulge their plans. But they are not anticipating much in the way of expansion, particularly after taking a hard hit in the run up to and aftermath of Sep 11th, when the airlines were expanding too quickly.

BA don't offer anything like they used to, but at least when you have been there some time you get a much better lifestyle and pay.

The other option is to join one of the low cost carriers. EasyJet need loads of pilots, and command time is quick. But once you've got your command, what then? 20 years doing the same thing, the same routes, the same loads of sectors. And are they secure?

Its not a good time to be an experienced, or slightly older, jet FO.

If you work for a charter airline its a long time to command.

If you go to BA its a long time (perhaps never get) a command.

Or get a command with EasyJet but have no changes in your career for the next 20 or so years.

I think its right that BALPA members are trying to improve BA's offer. Most airlines base their pilots Ts&Cs on BAs, so its to all our benefit to support the BA pilots in this. I think the Ts&Cs for new pilots joining BA are pretty poor, and from what I hear although many people have applied, most will not be definitely taking up an offer with BA, when it comes.

There are lots of MyTravel pilots applying, I can see their point, but for many of us, we'll not be beating a path to BA's door - I think that might surprise them.

Pay, yes. Lifestyle though depends very much on movement up the list, which is going to come to a near halt in the next couple of years.

Yes, but in 20 years time I'll still be doing night Tenerife, night Ibiza, night Turkey every weekend, whereas I can't imagine that would be the case in BA.

deadrodington

Thank you for the most informative post I've read for a long time.

Cheers

In twenty years time as a junior Captain you'll be doing night JFK, night Newark, night Jeddah, night Lagos, night Bombay every weekend!

An excellent and informative post.

British Airways is still the best employer for pilots in the country without doubt. That said, the low cost airlines have forced them particularly in the short haul market, to re-evaluate their strategy and the consequence of that is terms and conditions have been eroded for new entrants. It is not the airline it used to be anymore for excellent conditions of employment.

The pension unquestionably is a paramount factor in deciding whether or not to apply to them. Likewise, if current BA pilots are asked to dip in to their pockets to sure up the black hole in the companys' pension pot, then if the retirement age is extended to 60, many will continue beyond 55 to make up that shortfall. That in turn will have ramifications for promotion to the LHS.

Cathay Pacific used different contracts to employ new pilots and the reason is reduce crew costs in an increasingly competitive business.

My own gut feeling is that only those who are low in seniority in their own airline and are going to have to wait a long time till command should consider it. The difference between final salary pension schemes and money purchase schemes is immense and if you are currently in a final salary scheme at present, think very carefully.

British Airways does offer a multitude of oppotunities through their route network but the friends I have there work extremely hard and fly more hours than most of the charter airlines now.

Good luck to those applying. I have a feeling BA won't be getting the deluge of applications it may have been expecting.

Regards Orion Man.

We were asked, along with all other employees and like them, we refused to bail the company out of a hole it had dug for itself.

Human Factor

I didn't know that matter had come to a conclusion. Thanks for the info.

Great informative initial posting (very good food for thought indeed!), and good discussion (although got a bit hung up on the staff travel issue to start with, eh?).

We need to ensure that all perspective applicants get to see this!!

It would be a damned shame that someone might hand in their notice to their current employer, sign up with BA, and then find that they've made an enormous cock-up... frozen out from command for 15 years, working every weekend, crap pension.

I'm sure BA don't make these things clear in their recruitment literature, eh???

If BA put out their adverts and didn't get enough type-rated applicants (that's all they're looking for I think?), I'm sure they would soon adjust their new starter rates & pension... they'd have to!

It would seem that they are actually very short of pilots to crew the operation... they don't have any cadets under training at the moment (and none planned, I'm told), so that won't get them off the hook.

I'd like to see more postings like this by colleagues from all the operators... lets us know what we're really getting into if we decide to sign up with a new company.

This is a good thread, thanks for the info !

I don't know that BA have enough in the hold pool to meet their requirement for over 120 pilots this year. From what I have heard there is a huge failure rate on the simulator assessment day. Presumably because Airbus pilots who are being recruited to fly an Airbus and have performed perfectly well in the past are being asked to forget all that and fly a BAC 1-11 to perfection instead. From what I've heard, its something like 6 out of every 7 are failing. What are BA looking for? These same pilots must be passing their OPCs and LPCs, and some must be doing it with above average skills.

(B) PENSION

BA has closed its Final Salary Pension Scheme to all new joiners. This scheme allowed up to 2/3 final salary to be taken as pension. BA contributed approx 25% of a pilot's pensionable salary to this scheme.

The new scheme (as currently proposed) is significantly less beneficial. The scheme will be a "Money Purchase" type, where the liability rests with the employee. BA is proposing contributing only approximately 9% of the pilot's basic pay... far less than currently contributed by the employer in a number of equivalent schemes (e.g. Virgin Atlantic).
Under the current proposals it is unlikely that a pilot will receive more than half his final salary as pension (depending on investment / stock market performance).

This is exactly what was proposed by a potential investor in Air Canada. All of the involved unions told him to "stuff it". We were willing to let the company liquidate over the pension issue. The potential investor walked away, and we still have our original pension plan. I am surprised BALPA would put up with this.

I wonder if one of you BA chaps could clarify something for me.

There are 3000 pilots at BA. That gives us roughly 1400 captains and 1600 FOs.

Approximate time to Short Haul Command = 10-12 years
Approximate time to Long Haul Command = 16-18 years

So let’s say it takes you 12 years to be eligible for command. However before you get your command you will have been the most senior FO in the fleet, right? And therefore have enjoyed the last couple of years bidding for all the best trips, having weekends off, etc.

So using 12 years to command as a yardstick; after 6 or so years an FO would be in the top 50 percent of FO’s seniority list? And with the BA’s route structure surely that would mean a good lifestyle?

P.S
As a long haul FO how senior would you have to be to get things like Australia, the Far East or South America?
And why is the US east coast so unpopular? I can understand why Lagos and Jeddah aren’t the most bid for, but what is wrong with New York?

Cheers,
HaM

Can't comment on the seniority issues at BA, but you ask what is wrong with New York? Well, nothing - until you go there six times a month, every month. And have to suffer the overnight flight back having had precious little sleep over the preceding day, then have to fight your way through the morning queues at Heathrow. And JFK is a third world airport, not to mention the excessive zeal of the TSA guys against aircrews.

Apart from that, it's great!

Pretty much sums it up. If you join straight onto a long haul fleet, bear in mind that a lot of guys and girls already there only want to do long haul and will sit at the top of the co-pilots list for an awfully long time in order to swap seats and not have to do short haul. I've been in seven years, I'm about a third of the way off the bottom of my list and the top 50% will take another two or three years.

HaM

Your logic is too simplistic, 12 years as an FO maybe, but after 6 years you maybe half way to command but nothing like half way up the FO seniority list. Why?

Well most FO's start for 4-6 years on shorthaul, and indeed right now, a 4 year SFO on SH will be in the top quarter probably on the Airbus status list. When he transfers to LH after say 5 years he will be 80-90% down the LH P2 list.

In SH because of the similarity of the trips, anywhere in the top half (ie 3 years service) will see you getting a good bid result, but to achieve a similar bid result in LH you will probably need 9-10 years service.

I say this having done 15 years, 6yrs SH P2, 2 SH P1, 4 LH P2 and 3 SH P1. I have the seniority for all but 747 command and should get that bid next year (all things being equal).

TopBunk,

Thanks for the clarification - I thought that might be the case.

Cheers,
HaM

Thanks for the info...

However, some of the guys I'm talking to say that the retirement age will have to go up from 55 to 60 in Oct 2006.

This will, apparently, make the entire seniority system stagnate for 5 years (no retirements = no recruitments).

I've been told that you can therefore add 5 years onto all the current predictions i.e. 5 years extra cr*p at the bottom of the seniority list, 17 years to shorthaul command and 22 years to longhaul command.

Apparently this is how long it used to take about 10 years ago... is that true?

As far as I understand it, European law means that a retirement age as such would be abolished - you can keep going so long as you pass the medical. However due to licencing requirements in France and Italy, 60 would become the maximum for pilots. Everyone in BA at the moment (except for some of the ex Dan Dare guys) must go at 55. Even after the legal retirement age changes, there should be nothing (in theory) stopping anyone from going as originally planned, although some will undoubtedly stay on. I would be surprised if commands go back five years, probably more like three. I'm considered quite young for my seniority (or senior for my age) and I will be looking at 18+ years (from joining) to a short haul command at LHR if this is the case with longhaul probably after 23 years. I haven't decided when I want to retire yet so I could be a long haul captain for well over ten years, which could cause a big delay for anyone junior to me. As you say, this is similar to ten or so years ago.

Has anyone mentioned the roster stability at BA as one of the most vital benefits? I have known for certain from a day or two ago exactly what my roster is until the 3rd September. No if's but's or maybes, no being messed around in two weeks time if things go wrong. It's cast in stone and can't be changed.

If I were to be on a 3 day trip (for example) that got disrupted and it was impossible for me to continue the duty that day, I would be sent home and have to come back in the next day to resume my trip at the first available opportunity and therefore finish at the original time on my roster.

You can plan your life without being at the mercy of crew control, unlike other airlines I have worked for.

How about block reserves of a month ? Do they disrupt your life especially if you wanted to commute to LHR ??

I understand that being a junior f/o you can expect at least 1, maybe 2 months of this !?!

You will do reserve more regularly as a junior FO. Expect at least once a year. The more senior you are, the less frequently you will do it. This is basically a period of standby which lasts three weeks plus a set of seven fixed days off, although SHAG has different rules. If you think you're likely to be assigned reserve, you can bid in advance to get some control of your days off.

On shorthaul, some of it will be airport standby, some of it home standby. If I remember correctly, short haul has a 12 hour (?) period for airport standby or 1.5 hours from the car park for home standby.

For longhaul, all standby is from home with max 2 hours from the car park. In most cases, the company will try to give you more notice but if you live further away than that time, get yourself a girlfriend in Windsor.

6 hour ASB, and same 2 hours from call to car park for HSB (all in BLRs...)

NoD