Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Terms and Endearment
Reload this Page >

Are we ever going to see US style pay. If not, why not?

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

Are we ever going to see US style pay. If not, why not?

Old 1st Dec 2023, 10:33
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South East
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by rudestuff
Reality check: You take home £4000 more than the AVERAGE person in the UK. You can have as many expensive holidays as you like and a Lamborghini parked outside your small flat.
You need the reality check.
HidekiTojo is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2023, 11:00
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: EU
Posts: 109
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by rudestuff
Reality check: You take home £4000 more than the AVERAGE person in the UK. You can have as many expensive holidays as you like and a Lamborghini parked outside your small flat.
Reality check
I joined the Air Force at 18, spent some years in a place like a prison (academy), flew fighter jets, left the job security of military, later flew passengers, I have a proficiency check every six months, medical every year, left my hometown, working on holidays and nights, a mistake of mine can have catastrophic consequences and yet we talk about average salaries, GDP, unions and taxes and be happy that we make more than a bartender (not all of us)
menekse is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2023, 12:20
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: one country, one system
Age: 55
Posts: 490
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by VariablePitchP
Last time I checked the price of milk for a pilot is the same as it is for an average person.

If you’re taking home £6300 a month, single, in just a flat, and not saving/investing at least £4000 a month then there’s something horribly wrong.
If you are single and happily living on 2300 net than chances are you will remain single😂

Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 1st Dec 2023 at 13:55.
Sam Ting Wong is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2023, 14:15
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: U.K.
Posts: 398
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong
If you are single and happily living on 2300 net than chances are you will remain single😂
Ironic from a Communist.
TheAirMission is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2023, 17:21
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by roll_over
12K is only 12k because the tax regime is low, your company is not paying you a lot, it only feels like a lot compared to a salary in Europe. You have some spending money if you are single and with a family live a relatively ok life. It’s not big bucks, I used to earn a similar amount. Compared to people scraping by paycheck to paycheck it’s a lot I take that but don’t kid yourself you are earning a lot.

I clear about £6300 after tax, it’s enough for a small apartment, living an ok life and some savings as a single person. No living the good life or expensive holidays.

with all due respect, with this salary you are in the top few percent of earners in the uk. If you’re living as you describe then surely your apartment must be in the one of the most expensive/exclusive parts of the county. Your salary is more than most people would ever see in their working lives, and by a big margin

for the record, I’m not saying that you earn too much or that the industry in the uk as a whole doesn’t deserve to rise towards the US salaries. Just a nudge to say that if you talk to the average person, £6300 is seen as a salary with which you should be able to live a very comfortable life in most areas of the UK

Last edited by JM926; 1st Dec 2023 at 17:35.
JM926 is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2023, 23:20
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Where the Quaboag River flows, USA
Age: 71
Posts: 3,387
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Does £6300 after tax equal about £10,000 PRE-tax, I’m just guessing, which is about US$12,700 per month gross. Decent salary here, but probably anout 2/3rds of second year legacy major income.
galaxy flyer is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2023, 00:14
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2023
Location: world
Posts: 46
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by bafanguy
If the EU were to up the required post-licensing hours for aspiring airline F/Os, would the industry/aviation infrastructure over there be able to provide some mechanism to get these low-hour pilots a sizeable increase in hours to satisfy increased hour requirements ?

personally I don't think so. US has a lot of low level jobs for fresh out of school pilots(EG: crop dusting, banner flying, pipe checking, paradropping, aerial photography etcetc) apart of instructor obviously, in the EU lots of those aren't as present(if im not wrong in all the Mediterranean area there is only 1 company that does banner flying in Portugal and is tied to a flight school from spain so a dude from Poland or Italy or whatever other EU member state wouldn't make the cut most likely) it wouldn't be able to sustain a hichups, let alone a constant, stream of Low hours FO similar like the US.

Let's take as a dumb example PCC lowhours section, go and have a laugh on the type of posting is there, not for the type but rather the min requirement or the amount of companies that actually are there(especially in EU region).... I mean, unless they revamp a lot to search any type of low level companies helping the search(and I mean this as a way for fresh out of school to get better informations as they usually only have word of mouth and quick google search to find such low level jobs) i dont see it to ever get closer at all
spiffolo is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2023, 07:07
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wherever I lay my hat
Posts: 3,916
Received 28 Likes on 12 Posts
Originally Posted by menekse
Reality check
I joined the Air Force at 18, spent some years in a place like a prison (academy), flew fighter jets, left the job security of military, later flew passengers, I have a proficiency check every six months, medical every year, left my hometown, working on holidays and nights, a mistake of mine can have catastrophic consequences and yet we talk about average salaries, GDP, unions and taxes and be happy that we make more than a bartender (not all of us)
And I agree you should get paid more than average. But that wasn't the point. When someone claims that a single person earning 2.5x the average UK salary can barely make ends meet they're clearly not living in the real world.
rudestuff is online now  
Old 2nd Dec 2023, 07:27
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: one country, one system
Age: 55
Posts: 490
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Disclaimer, because this gets overlooked easily. Average salary looks at workers only. Self-employed are excluded as is any income from capital/ dividends/shares etc. The average "working" individual makes actually more. Example: an NHS doctor disappears the moment he/she goes private later in his career, and any additional income before that never enters the statistics. Same with finance industry boni, stock options for tech guys, company car/accomodation, school fee assistance etc. Obviously other forms of income, eg property, bonds, stocks etc are not included either.

In other words, an average salary does not mean an average purchase power measured across the population.

Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 2nd Dec 2023 at 07:59.
Sam Ting Wong is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2023, 09:29
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2023
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Gentlemen
i honestly do not understand why , when discussing about our salaries ,people start with
“The average earner makes….”or “people make 1000 gbp/eur month we should not complain.”
We cannot compare our profession to many other jobs ,remuneration included ,unless we all want to go back to communism where everybody earned the same no matter which title he/she held with all related consequences.
Our job is highly qualified,for some reason in EU the press,public opinion,want to make it look like any other job but the reality is quite different for some reasons:
Dynamic operational environment subject to many sudden and unexpected changes.
huge variety of the above mentioned elements mixing with the interaction of us as human beings
responsibility for other people lives and so on.
you can’t tell me that these elements are common to all the other jobs when people compare pilots to many others workers ,because that would be totally unfair.For some reasons,I call it envy,related to the past pilots are seen as overpaid people when there are many other categories that could be genuinely looked at for getting an excessive amount of money.I would probably say that especially nowadays pilots really work their butts off as never before so they would deserve a proper salary.
Another curious thing which I have noticed is that eu cockpit association is blaming atypical self employment contracts for pilots….well it’s easy to talk when you are comfortably working for a legacy carrier with all the protections you need,blaming others that are “lowering the working terms and conditions”i have a solution for that!
stop freaking using the national language as a requirement to access the screening for your national airlines as a protection not to let non national pilots in because that is another contribution
to the growth of the so called atypical contracts for pilots and acmi proliferation….let everybody have a chance ,do not keep the pie all for you unless you are afraid of losing your privileges …



Hitchiker is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2023, 15:26
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 3,347
Likes: 0
Received 17 Likes on 11 Posts
Returning to CW247's original question: "If not, why not?" Could it be because sufficient numbers of pilots are turning up willing to work for existing conditions ?

If management don't see the business plan being threatened by lack of crews, why would they spend money improving those conditions ? All that matters is money.
bafanguy is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2023, 17:52
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: FLSomething
Posts: 393
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Hitchiker
Gentlemen
i honestly do not understand why , when discussing about our salaries ,people start with
“The average earner makes….”or “people make 1000 gbp/eur month we should not complain.”
We cannot compare our profession to many other jobs ,remuneration included ,unless we all want to go back to communism where everybody earned the same no matter which title he/she held with all related consequences.
Our job is highly qualified,for some reason in EU the press,public opinion,want to make it look like any other job but the reality is quite different for some reasons:
Dynamic operational environment subject to many sudden and unexpected changes.
huge variety of the above mentioned elements mixing with the interaction of us as human beings
responsibility for other people lives and so on.
you can’t tell me that these elements are common to all the other jobs when people compare pilots to many others workers ,because that would be totally unfair.For some reasons,I call it envy,related to the past pilots are seen as overpaid people when there are many other categories that could be genuinely looked at for getting an excessive amount of money.I would probably say that especially nowadays pilots really work their butts off as never before so they would deserve a proper salary.
Another curious thing which I have noticed is that eu cockpit association is blaming atypical self employment contracts for pilots….well it’s easy to talk when you are comfortably working for a legacy carrier with all the protections you need,blaming others that are “lowering the working terms and conditions”i have a solution for that!
stop freaking using the national language as a requirement to access the screening for your national airlines as a protection not to let non national pilots in because that is another contribution
to the growth of the so called atypical contracts for pilots and acmi proliferation….let everybody have a chance ,do not keep the pie all for you unless you are afraid of losing your privileges …
All totally and utterly irrelevant if there is more supply than demand.

You think we work hard? Try working a night shift at McDonald’s or in a care home. Far harder, paid pennies compared to pilots.

More pilots than jobs, crap pay. Less pilots than jobs, more pay. Anything else is meaningless.
VariablePitchP is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2023, 20:41
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: EU
Posts: 109
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by bafanguy
Returning to CW247's original question: "If not, why not?" Could it be because sufficient numbers of pilots are turning up willing to work for existing conditions ?

If management don't see the business plan being threatened by lack of crews, why would they spend money improving those conditions ? All that matters is money.
Originally Posted by VariablePitchP
More pilots than jobs, crap pay. Less pilots than jobs, more pay. Anything else is meaningless.
We should define ''pilot''
Is considered pilot someone with a PPL?
Someone with a CPL and 200 hours on pistons?
You can pretty much buy a license, some extra hours till you learn how to land, some extra hours before the first solo and memorize a question bank.
In the Air Force if you were not cleared for solo flight after a specific amount of flight time you were kissing your flight career goodbye. I don't think flight schools are kicking out students that are weak pilots, they would go out of business.
Afterwards you can buy some interview preparation tests and some hours on the sim you expect the assessment.
That's why there are so many pilots in the market. They can just buy the license and the assessment preparation.
Until harder entry requirements are enforced and followed (some airlines officially have hard requirements but hire below these requirements) don't expect any true money. They will always find someone for less money, till CFITs
That's what happens in ME that's why you can pocket some descent money and I read the same in US

I am not saying that there are no good pilots without military background. I am saying that more filters should apply than a license or an assessment that you can buy the perfect preparation
menekse is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2023, 21:06
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2023
Location: Spain
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by bafanguy
If the EU were to up the required post-licensing hours for aspiring airline F/Os, would the industry/aviation infrastructure over there be able to provide some mechanism to get these low-hour pilots a sizeable increase in hours to satisfy increased hour requirements ?
Really good question.

I was going to answer you, but it's basically the same asspiffolo said above.

We don't (Europe) have enough GA jobs to implement a 1500h rule and pump up those T&C's and salaries.
We are so focused on commercial-airline aviation that it sucks. Other GA jobs, even for business or medical transport jets, crop dusting, pipeline patrol (I don't think we even have that) are really niche and simply not enough. It was once, though.
Even some of them are dying by technology (drones) and others by the EU law (crop dusting in Spain at least).
​​
​​​
Garcia37 is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2023, 23:42
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Up north
Posts: 1,657
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
No, we will never se the same level of pay in Europe. Reason? Mainly because Europe isn’t a combination of states within the same country like in the US. This leaves unions powerless in companies that employ staff in multiple states. There are trans-national efforts, but so far they’ve lead to very little when it comes to pay and general T&Cs.

CP
CaptainProp is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2023, 01:00
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 3,347
Likes: 0
Received 17 Likes on 11 Posts
Originally Posted by menekse
We should define ''pilot''
Is considered pilot someone with a PPL?

Someone with a CPL and 200 hours on pistons?
It pretty much defines itself. PPL ? No...of course not.

In the context of this discussion, it means someone legally employable in an airline operation under the regulatory system in the country where they live.

Everything else is just ancillary details/factors. Can they be legally employed in an airline operation in the country in question ? That answers its own question as to what a "pilot" is.
bafanguy is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.