Brexit the Enabler? Forgive my ignorance ..
And isn't right to work an issue as well as licences?
Right to live and work would be very much an issue regardless of licences. Wasn’t FoM a central plank of Vote Leave? Ms Patel cheered to the rafters when she announced that FoM was finally achieved.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: IRS NAV ONLY
Posts: 1,230
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: May 2016
Location: The EU
Posts: 641
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don’t know, or care. This is the terms and conditions section of an aviation forum, not a political one, or Twitter. But the OP (and subsequent contributors) was asking why people voted leave and then insinuated that their inability to find a job is solely due to Brexit and those who voted for it, and absolutely nothing to do with his/her CV or professional or personal credentials.
I can see at least three A320 operators desperately short of pilots in the UK, as well as almost every ME airline. A320 jobs pop up every day, it’s the most useful type rating on Earth. But hey, let’s blame a democratic vote that happened six years ago, rather than taking ownership of our own misfortunes. Victim culture alive and well in 2022.
I can see at least three A320 operators desperately short of pilots in the UK, as well as almost every ME airline. A320 jobs pop up every day, it’s the most useful type rating on Earth. But hey, let’s blame a democratic vote that happened six years ago, rather than taking ownership of our own misfortunes. Victim culture alive and well in 2022.
Ok, that is half of the U.K. electorate defined as stupid and / or selfish. Don’t ya just love the Internet? The fact remains that the legislation surrounding pilot licensing is archaic and confused. As I have already stated the licences should in reality be interchangeable for the qualification. For example, I spent 2 years on loan to a start up in Dubai as a B737 captain and trainer. During that time I flew with furloughed United pilots, Qantas, just about every European as well as a good proportion of Asia. All of us were granted a GCAA licence based on our current licence with the caveat of an air law exam. Fair enough. There was no difference in our collective technical capabilities other than the normal variation. Although I really take my hat off to those who fly when English is not the native language, my schoolboy French does not cut it. My main point ref Brexit is that there is no need for the U.K. to divorce from EASA. U.K. licences are identical in content and should be interchangeable in both directions. The resultant is down to bureaucratic spite and incompetence regardless of whether you think Brexit is a bad idea or not. There are pros and cons on both sides of the Brexit argument but that is done, move on. Regardless, the pilot community in U.K. and Europe have been let down.
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 1,315
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I see there are still many bureaucrats here defending the current situation between the UK and EASA. The fact of the matter is UK-Part FCL is an identical replica of EASA Part FCL: the training is the same, the training centres are the same, the examiners can be the same, the aircraft are the same, the requirements are the same and the standards are the same, the skills tests are the same and the medical requirements are the same… etc.
It’s purely political by both parties and it favours absolutely nobody.
It’s purely political by both parties and it favours absolutely nobody.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hotel time zone
Posts: 173
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Again ... withdrawing from all ECJ influence required a withdrawal from EASA. Yes, they could have accepted the aspects of ECJ contained within EASA (as some non EU countries have done), but as Brexit became more and more fundamentalist, they decided the ECJ had to be utterly purged. I really don't see the underlying blame being at the belgrano.
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 1,315
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think you're all missing the fundamental problem of Brexit, because it damn sure isn't licensing. Anyone can convert a licence, or in the worst case, sure, do the ATPLs again.
The problem is you have no right to live and work.
I have a European licence, and a UK licence. But if I got offered a job tomorrow in France, Spain or anywhere, am I eligible? No. I have no legal right to live and work in Europe anymore.
EASA and licensing is not the issue here.
The problem is you have no right to live and work.
I have a European licence, and a UK licence. But if I got offered a job tomorrow in France, Spain or anywhere, am I eligible? No. I have no legal right to live and work in Europe anymore.
EASA and licensing is not the issue here.
Perhaps UK and EU driving licences should go down the same route because why not just go full daft.
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Anywhere and nowhere
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All of my European friends transfered their UK license to Ireland before the brexit took effect
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 1,315
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Most of these people still work for a UK airline and subsequently haven’t been able to transfer their licences and finding alternative employment during Covid was not possible. Its never black and white and its disappointing people support this mess.
The facts are that EASA has nothing to do with the EU. There was no reason for the U.K. CAA to disengage from EASA. The licences are non compliant with Part FCL because a bunch of bureaucratic morons decided; the academic and flying content both sides of the channel were / are identical. Facts, why bother with them eh?
https://european-union.europa.eu/ins...ofiles/easa_en
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Earth
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whilst you may be right, some of those affected are dual citizens or even EU citizens in fact. I know of at least 10 pilots who are now stuck with a UK licence and an EU passport. So, in some ways, yes licensing is an issue.
Perhaps UK and EU driving licences should go down the same route because why not just go full daft.
Perhaps UK and EU driving licences should go down the same route because why not just go full daft.
Well your last point has already happened in Spain. If you are a UK expat living in Spain you can no longer legally drive in Spain.
I too know a few EU citizens stuck with a UK licence. Working for a UK airline but since lost there job. Yes they can live in the EU but can’t get a flying job unless they cough up £3kish.
It’s a mess a real mess.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hotel time zone
Posts: 173
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Easa is an EU agency as shown if you use its full name.
https://european-union.europa.eu/ins...ofiles/easa_en
https://european-union.europa.eu/ins...ofiles/easa_en
Leaving EASA was an unnecessary decision made by UK politicians (thanks Mr Shapps) but even so I am genuinely curious as to why someone has not been able to use the last few years to achieve the licence or licences they want. SOLI out of UK was simple (tedious, yes but simple), reacquiring a UK licence was simple (again, tedious but…) and the vast majority should have been able to now have either or both licences. Even I managed it! The right to be employed outside the UK is a whole different issue from licences.
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 1,315
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Certainly was the fault of the UK government and i can give you a few examples of how its not been possible for some to reacquire both licences:
1.) Was in employment with a UK airline on or before 01.01.20.
2.) Was in employment in the Middle East or Asia on or before 01.01.20 and hadn’t used or renewed the UK EASA equivalent for sometime.
3.) Lost their UK based job before 01.01.20, had a family to feed and had insufficient tokens to renew their TR and medical before SOLI, during the worst pandemic the industry has faced.
4.) was unable to renew his TR during covid due to lockdowns and availability so was told he couldn’t SOLI.
5.) Returned to the UK Airforce and was on deployment.
6.) In flight training over the deadline.
7). Had medical suspended whilst said pilot battled cancer over the deadline only to regain it with an OML which is a disqualifying factor for initial EASA medicals btw so now can’t obtain a new EASA class 1.
Theres a few examples a few i know have had. Yes its the fault of the uk Government however EASA could have easily implemented a simple process as the UK have done after the deadline to allow those who couldn’t SOLI the chance to obtain another licence once the UK had left.
This would have been arguably a more efficient approach as many did SOLI for a licence they’ll never use purely because they didn’t know what would happen.
1.) Was in employment with a UK airline on or before 01.01.20.
2.) Was in employment in the Middle East or Asia on or before 01.01.20 and hadn’t used or renewed the UK EASA equivalent for sometime.
3.) Lost their UK based job before 01.01.20, had a family to feed and had insufficient tokens to renew their TR and medical before SOLI, during the worst pandemic the industry has faced.
4.) was unable to renew his TR during covid due to lockdowns and availability so was told he couldn’t SOLI.
5.) Returned to the UK Airforce and was on deployment.
6.) In flight training over the deadline.
7). Had medical suspended whilst said pilot battled cancer over the deadline only to regain it with an OML which is a disqualifying factor for initial EASA medicals btw so now can’t obtain a new EASA class 1.
Theres a few examples a few i know have had. Yes its the fault of the uk Government however EASA could have easily implemented a simple process as the UK have done after the deadline to allow those who couldn’t SOLI the chance to obtain another licence once the UK had left.
This would have been arguably a more efficient approach as many did SOLI for a licence they’ll never use purely because they didn’t know what would happen.
Last edited by Contact Approach; 6th May 2022 at 23:20.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Dubai
Age: 55
Posts: 313
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not everybody can just transfer their license. I wrote my UK ATPL last year - 30 years after doing my license in South Africa for the first time. The only market I plan to work in, is the UK market as it is the only one where I will have the right to work - now it turns out I need an EASA ATPL because half the operators in UK have an EASA AOC. I should not have to do the same license twice just to do the same job in the same country.
The often quoted term " No right to live and work in the EU anymore" is not correct. What has been forfeited is the automatic right only. It is still entirely possible.
The UK completely screwed the pooch after leaving EASA. I had an EASA licence in my possesion that I contributed to their coffers for. Now they want me to jump over many hurdles and pay pay pay to have what I already had! But the UK gave Jonny Foreigner access to UK jobs without securing anything reciprical. My mind tells me it was deliberate? Putting other nationalities interests ahead of the British is a constant theme in 21st century UK.
The UK completely screwed the pooch after leaving EASA. I had an EASA licence in my possesion that I contributed to their coffers for. Now they want me to jump over many hurdles and pay pay pay to have what I already had! But the UK gave Jonny Foreigner access to UK jobs without securing anything reciprical. My mind tells me it was deliberate? Putting other nationalities interests ahead of the British is a constant theme in 21st century UK.