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Brexit the Enabler? Forgive my ignorance ..

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Brexit the Enabler? Forgive my ignorance ..

Old 5th May 2022, 08:40
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by roll_over View Post
Hopefully salaries will go up in the UK because the market is more restricted. The EU just serves companies and governments in reducing salaries and working conditions in Western Europe.
What do you think the second order effect of UK pilots becoming more expensive will be?
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Old 5th May 2022, 09:40
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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I'm sorry that you missed out on some jobs

Wether its a good or a bad thing will depend on your personal goals/situation.
If you want to live & work in the EU, its obviously a very bad thing.
If you want to live and work in the UK, personally I think it will be a good thing. I've already been advantaged applying for jobs back in the UK, that highly skilled EU colleagues were interested in and couldn't.
​We weren't always eligible for jobs in the EU due to language requirements, whereas obviously all pilots speak English. That did skew the opportunities a little

Swings & Roundabouts

*Takes cover*
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Old 5th May 2022, 10:48
  #23 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by SpamCanDriver View Post
I'm sorry that you missed out on some jobs

Wether its a good or a bad thing will depend on your personal goals/situation.
If you want to live & work in the EU, its obviously a very bad thing.
If you want to live and work in the UK, personally I think it will be a good thing. I've already been advantaged applying for jobs back in the UK, that highly skilled EU colleagues were interested in and couldn't.
​We weren't always eligible for jobs in the EU due to language requirements, whereas obviously all pilots speak English. That did skew the opportunities a little

Swings & Roundabouts

*Takes cover*
How many actual jobs in the UK can you count right now? Cos I'm having a very hard time even trying to use up the fingers on one hand. The language thing in Europe was a thing, but only really for national carriers or their associated subsidiaries. There is a whole world of other operations that had no such language requirements. And who said none of us can speak any other language so let's just shut the door? I happen to speak French and I think you'll find other pilots do quite well with other languages too.

Do you really think there are enough UK jobs for the amount of British pilots? There is a major disconnect in the amount of jobs v pilots. Yes it's the case in Europe too, but time showed British pilots did very well in securing jobs in Europe with many airlines, all those opportunities now gone. I am rated on a type which only has 2 active UK operators, the vast majority of them are in Europe. Perhaps I'm receiving the brunt of it. I've no idea what UK opportunities exist for anyone coming out of flight school at present or in the near future.
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Old 5th May 2022, 10:58
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by roll_over View Post
Hopefully salaries will go up in the UK because the market is more restricted. The EU just serves companies and governments in reducing salaries and working conditions in Western Europe.
How do governments benefit from reduced salaries? Do governments see less tax collecting now as a good thing? Has anyone told the Swiss yet?
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Old 5th May 2022, 11:13
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CASBO View Post
What do you think the second order effect of UK pilots becoming more expensive will be?
Hopefully it will make tickets more expensive. The American carriers seem to be doing alright, their pilots too. The USA is a closed shop though, not like Europe.
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Old 5th May 2022, 11:29
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by A320LGW View Post
How many actual jobs in the UK can you count right now? Cos I'm having a very hard time even trying to use up the fingers on one hand. The language thing in Europe was a thing, but only really for national carriers or their associated subsidiaries. There is a whole world of other operations that had no such language requirements. And who said none of us can speak any other language so let's just shut the door? I happen to speak French and I think you'll find other pilots do quite well with other languages too.

Do you really think there are enough UK jobs for the amount of British pilots? There is a major disconnect in the amount of jobs v pilots. Yes it's the case in Europe too, but time showed British pilots did very well in securing jobs in Europe with many airlines, all those opportunities now gone. I am rated on a type which only has 2 active UK operators, the vast majority of them are in Europe. Perhaps I'm receiving the brunt of it. I've no idea what UK opportunities exist for anyone coming out of flight school at present or in the near future.
As I said it depends on your circumstances, if you had a different type rating etc..
It's not a bed of roses in the EU either, I fly in the Sandpit currently so fly with lot's of EU citizens trying hard to get jobs in the EU.
No the language thing wasn't just a national carrier thing & when did I say all Brits only spoke one language?

The total amount of Jobs British pilots can apply for have has most definitely decreased, but so has the number of pilots applying for those jobs

Swings & Roundabouts

I sincerely wish you the best of luck finding a job, god knows we've all been there!
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Old 5th May 2022, 13:02
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by roll_over View Post
Hopefully it will make tickets more expensive. The American carriers seem to be doing alright, their pilots too. The USA is a closed shop though, not like Europe.
Exacto. So when pilots get expensive in the UK, the ticket prices don't go up, the jobs just go abroad.
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Old 5th May 2022, 13:03
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SpamCanDriver View Post
We weren't always eligible for jobs in the EU due to language requirements, whereas obviously all pilots speak English. That did skew the opportunities a little
You quietly forgot to mention that every single British pilot has ICAO Level 6 (which has been required for most UK-based jobs, alongside verbal reasoning tests etc.) and unlike most of their colleagues they've had the pleasure of studying for and taking their ATPL exams in their native language, making it either much easier to achieve the same level - or, with the same amount of effort invested, achieve a much higher level of knowledge.
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Old 5th May 2022, 13:34
  #29 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by SpamCanDriver View Post
As I said it depends on your circumstances, if you had a different type rating etc..
It's not a bed of roses in the EU either, I fly in the Sandpit currently so fly with lot's of EU citizens trying hard to get jobs in the EU.
No the language thing wasn't just a national carrier thing & when did I say all Brits only spoke one language?

The total amount of Jobs British pilots can apply for have has most definitely decreased, but so has the number of pilots applying for those jobs
Give me a wider job market any day of the week. What we have in the UK right now is depressing. As for the language, my point was despite language requirements, British pilots did find jobs because many did speak other languages, it was not a barrier in many cases, but those opportunities are now gone. I'm not going to start listing airlines and various other ops that did not require you to speak local languages anyway, there were and still are many. Every other day i have a look and see other opportunities on the continent with English ICAO 5 as the only language requirement.

FlyingStone raises a good point. Many people complained BA for example were open to EU pilots but their national carriers effectively closed to us, but BA require ICAO 6; something very few EU pilots actually have except for the Irish.
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Old 5th May 2022, 14:16
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FlyingStone View Post
You quietly forgot to mention that every single British pilot has ICAO Level 6 (which has been required for most UK-based jobs, alongside verbal reasoning tests etc.) and unlike most of their colleagues they've had the pleasure of studying for and taking their ATPL exams in their native language, making it either much easier to achieve the same level - or, with the same amount of effort invested, achieve a much higher level of knowledge.
I didn't quietly forget anything.

I am speaking in generalities...

There are far more EU pilots that speak English to a very high standard, than there are Brit pilots who speak another EU language to a very high standard. The Dutch would probably outnumber us Brits by themselves, let alone including the Scandinavians etc etc
As you rightly point out we already have the luxury of speaking the international language of aviation, where did I claim otherwise?
I might be out of date, but even recent job adverts I had seen advertised only asked for ICAO level 4 for jobs based in the UK.
Obviously some like BA have some very tricky verbal reasoning tests & I take my hat off to anyone who can pass the verbal reasoning tests for BA as a non native speaker, that is a seriously impressive achievement.

Last edited by SpamCanDriver; 5th May 2022 at 14:58.
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Old 5th May 2022, 14:34
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by A320LGW View Post
Give me a wider job market any day of the week. What we have in the UK right now is depressing. As for the language, my point was despite language requirements, British pilots did find jobs because many did speak other languages, it was not a barrier in many cases, but those opportunities are now gone. I'm not going to start listing airlines and various other ops that did not require you to speak local languages anyway, there were and still are many. Every other day i have a look and see other opportunities on the continent with English ICAO 5 as the only language requirement.

FlyingStone raises a good point. Many people complained BA for example were open to EU pilots but their national carriers effectively closed to us, but BA require ICAO 6; something very few EU pilots actually have except for the Irish.
As I said, depends on your priorities
You prefer a wider job market, some like myself want to fly in the UK

Good for some people, bad for others

I never said British pilots didn't find employment in the EU, we did in fairly large numbers. But Language requirements did also bar us from quite a few jobs, not just legacy flag carrier jobs.

I fly everyday with plenty of EU pilots who have level 6 English & well done to them, can only speak for the sandpit nowadays but its not that rare here

The number of EU pilots @ BA compared to the number of Brits @ other EU flag carriers speak for themselves.
And as I said above anyone who is a non native speaker who passed those verbal reasoning tests absolutely earned that job & fair play to them for a seriously impressive achievement.
I'm just saying if you're a Brit who wants to fly for BA etc, now you will have less competition for that role.



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Old 5th May 2022, 14:48
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Brexit was a good thing. The Brexit we got is a disaster? That is all down to the traitors in Westminster. Their continous attempts to trip Brexit up have resulted in the worst possible deal. Neverending surrendering to Brussels with nothing in return. UK politicians are to blame for all of this. There are not enough gallows!
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Old 5th May 2022, 15:29
  #33 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by happyjack View Post
Brexit was a good thing. The Brexit we got is a disaster? That is all down to the traitors in Westminster. Their continous attempts to trip Brexit up have resulted in the worst possible deal. Neverending surrendering to Brussels with nothing in return. UK politicians are to blame for all of this. There are not enough gallows!
You get what you vote for. From Brexit to the politicians. The only thing we probably don't vote for is the media, (who are culpable in all of this) but then again, people indirectly "vote" for them by tuning in/buying the printed nonsense and handing them more power. No end to the vicious circle.

As I said, depends on your priorities
You prefer a wider job market, some like myself want to fly in the UK
And so would I, it isn't working out very well though ...
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Old 5th May 2022, 16:04
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Happy Jack you are spot on. The current vogue is to disrespect democracy and do your level best to disrupt and obstruct all post Brexit protocols to allow the Remainers if we must call them that to say ‘I told you so’. We get the same nonsense in Scotland with Indy supporters never letting go or respecting the result of the Edinburgh agreement democratically resolved in 2014. I think it is a post modern characteristic whereby people do not tolerate not getting their own way. In terms of Brexit and pilots the resultant licensing chaos for pilots pan Europe is a direct result of this deliberate obstruction by the faceless bureaucratic idiots in either the political class, civil service or indeed and a special mention to the Belgrano. Let’s look at it logically: there is absolutely no reason why a French person can’t fly a G registered B737 nor a Brit an F registered 737 except for an arbitrary date. It makes no sense / rant over.

Last edited by olster; 5th May 2022 at 20:07.
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Old 5th May 2022, 21:06
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by happyjack View Post
Brexit was a good thing. The Brexit we got is a disaster? That is all down to the traitors in Westminster. Their continous attempts to trip Brexit up have resulted in the worst possible deal. Neverending surrendering to Brussels with nothing in return. UK politicians are to blame for all of this. There are not enough gallows!
So you think an even harder Brexit would have been better for British pilots... in what way exactly?

Originally Posted by olster View Post
Letís look at it logically: there is absolutely no reason why a French person canít fly a G registered B737 nor a Brit an F registered 737 except for an arbitrary date. It makes no sense / rant over.
Apart from that little fact that UK voluntarily left EASA and UK CAA licences are no longer compliant with EASA Part-FCL, and therefore not valid on EASA aircraft. Little facts, but why bother with them, right?
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Old 5th May 2022, 21:56
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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The facts are that EASA has nothing to do with the EU. There was no reason for the U.K. CAA to disengage from EASA. The licences are non compliant with Part FCL because a bunch of bureaucratic morons decided; the academic and flying content both sides of the channel were / are identical. Facts, why bother with them eh?
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Old 5th May 2022, 22:25
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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I agree. Many of the young FOí I fly with are dismayed at how many Nigelís voted leave. So we know what company I am talking about.
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Old 6th May 2022, 05:54
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by olster View Post
There was no reason for the U.K. CAA to disengage from EASA.
Of course there wasn't. Turns out Brexit doesn't make sense in a lot of areas as well.

How are LPV approaches doing in the UK these days? I heard they are very sovereign.

Last edited by FlyingStone; 6th May 2022 at 08:20.
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Old 6th May 2022, 06:56
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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See my post 19. Tory ideology is solely to blame for the UK not being in EASA. There was absolutely no need to leave. Having spent a large part of my professional life working on European aviation issues, it is heartbreaking to see the damage that is now being done - and it was all so predictable.
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Old 6th May 2022, 08:21
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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A fundamental aspect of Brexit was to disengage from the ECJ. That being so, the withdrawal from EASA became a necessity; a direct consequence of Brexit self harming, not from bureaucratic belligerence.
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