British Pilots : The fight back begins.
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MPPCAG
EASA licence is required to operate aircraft registered in EASA member states. UK can't mandate that aircraft based in the UK be G-registered and operated on UK AOC for UK-EU routes, as that would be a violation of the traffic rights defined in the UK-EU TCA.
Just as British AOC holders can base G-regs in the EU (that will require a UK licence from 2023 onwards), similarly EASA AOC holders can base EU-regs in the UK.
EASA licence is required to operate aircraft registered in EASA member states. UK can't mandate that aircraft based in the UK be G-registered and operated on UK AOC for UK-EU routes, as that would be a violation of the traffic rights defined in the UK-EU TCA.
Just as British AOC holders can base G-regs in the EU (that will require a UK licence from 2023 onwards), similarly EASA AOC holders can base EU-regs in the UK.
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Yes. G-regs based in the EU are still possible, albeit they are only limited to UK routes (vice versa for EU-reg in UK). I believe Jet2 are doing this with their Spanish bases?
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FlyingStone
That's all fair enough Flying Stone. I think you missed my point. ! was saying that a UK licence should be acceptable. A simple solution is to get an EASA licence of course but it's a pretty long wait now wherever you apply due to a huge backlog of applications (for obvious reasons). If I'm excluded from employment opportunities elsewhere in Europe due to Brexit, so be it but I don't expect it in my home country.
That's all fair enough Flying Stone. I think you missed my point. ! was saying that a UK licence should be acceptable. A simple solution is to get an EASA licence of course but it's a pretty long wait now wherever you apply due to a huge backlog of applications (for obvious reasons). If I'm excluded from employment opportunities elsewhere in Europe due to Brexit, so be it but I don't expect it in my home country.
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To be fair, EASA has softened its stance a lot since January and it is extremely easy to get an EASA license for UK pilots, especially if compared to all others in the same boat (third country nationals). There is still the need to be able to live and work in the UK for those outfits, or for UK airlines basing in the EU to be able to live and work in each country (there is no EU work permit) where they have bases.
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CAA Board Minutes January 2020
These minutes (Para 11) suggest that the CAA were becoming aware that the Government was likely to U turn on EASA membership in January 2020, just after Johnson won (lied his way to) a huge majority in the December election. As far as I am aware, the CAA didn't change their advice on their microsite so they never suggested that there was any advantage to be had by transferring to an EASA licence or no hint that there would be limitations for UK licence holders (except in the unlikely event of a no deal). We then spent the summer on tenterhooks whilst the people who claimed they held all the cards played a crude game of brinkmanship. Trying to choose the best licencing pathway would have been little more than guesswork, particularly for those in training or out of work.
The CAA could have been more proactive in updating their advice options but they would not have necessarily known which way the traffic rights were going to go in the final Dec 24th CTA. The draft Air Service Agreement negotiating document had been released by the Government over a year prior to this and in this document, there was a clause relating to social issues and not discrimination against or advantaging one group of workers over others. So, it was reasonable to assume that the people who held all the cards would have negotiated this into the final agreement. If not, why not?
Alas, it appears that we didn't hold all the cards after all. As it turned out, we got the bare bones - keep the planes flying deal and UK pilots were well and truly shafted. The CAA could have done more, but in the final few months of Brexit negotiation stand offs, they would have been punished by the Government and the RW press if they had dared to commit Brexit heresy and told the truth by suggested that pilots might be well advised to get themselves an EU licence ASAP.
"Wot! British pilots need a foreign European licence to work in their own country..
That's not what we voted for, we didn't win two world............."
Johnson, Shapps and the ERG crazies have well and truly stitched up the UK pilots but the probably don't care one jot.
These minutes (Para 11) suggest that the CAA were becoming aware that the Government was likely to U turn on EASA membership in January 2020, just after Johnson won (lied his way to) a huge majority in the December election. As far as I am aware, the CAA didn't change their advice on their microsite so they never suggested that there was any advantage to be had by transferring to an EASA licence or no hint that there would be limitations for UK licence holders (except in the unlikely event of a no deal). We then spent the summer on tenterhooks whilst the people who claimed they held all the cards played a crude game of brinkmanship. Trying to choose the best licencing pathway would have been little more than guesswork, particularly for those in training or out of work.
The CAA could have been more proactive in updating their advice options but they would not have necessarily known which way the traffic rights were going to go in the final Dec 24th CTA. The draft Air Service Agreement negotiating document had been released by the Government over a year prior to this and in this document, there was a clause relating to social issues and not discrimination against or advantaging one group of workers over others. So, it was reasonable to assume that the people who held all the cards would have negotiated this into the final agreement. If not, why not?
Alas, it appears that we didn't hold all the cards after all. As it turned out, we got the bare bones - keep the planes flying deal and UK pilots were well and truly shafted. The CAA could have done more, but in the final few months of Brexit negotiation stand offs, they would have been punished by the Government and the RW press if they had dared to commit Brexit heresy and told the truth by suggested that pilots might be well advised to get themselves an EU licence ASAP.
"Wot! British pilots need a foreign European licence to work in their own country..
That's not what we voted for, we didn't win two world............."Johnson, Shapps and the ERG crazies have well and truly stitched up the UK pilots but the probably don't care one jot.
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EASA has no choice in the matter. They would've been sued. It's like your foreign institution SUDDENLY deciding your diploma is worthless because you did it in a country that no longer has diplomatic relations with theirs. Simply stupid. The course material and exams were all EASA standard when we did them.
All member states have received a notice that they have to accept exams done in the UK. You have to ask the UK CAA to verify that information (pay £46 as usual). The accepting authority then sends an email which forms the basis of issuing your new EASA license.
All member states have received a notice that they have to accept exams done in the UK. You have to ask the UK CAA to verify that information (pay £46 as usual). The accepting authority then sends an email which forms the basis of issuing your new EASA license.
Last edited by Smooth Airperator; 13th Aug 2021 at 13:23.
Eagle has hit the nail on the head. It appears that it is the UK that has decided to disadvantage its own citizens in many cases, whether deliberately or through incompetence. I know which I believe to be the case.
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It is interesting that a "large swathe of TREs" voted Brexit, although the intention to leave EASA was never revealed during the vote, I cannot understand why someone with that level of insight into the airline industry would vote for a process that would hinder international trade and want to damage the profitability of his/her company. If these TREs are at a scheduled carrier, what would be the point of harming a business that earns it's living flying Europeans around Europe?
If this really is the case, I'm not sure being a TRE necessarily qualifies an individual as being politically astute.
If this really is the case, I'm not sure being a TRE necessarily qualifies an individual as being politically astute.
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The point is, why would a pilot with any interest at all in friction free travel for passengers within Europe and tariff free freight transit across State borders think it would be a good idea to torpedo the business model. As James O'Brien of LBC fame puts it, it has been the greatest act of self harm in modern political history. Whether a pilot is a TRE or not, the implications should have been pretty obvious.
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and what is wrong with foreign pilots? I have flown with great Dutch, German, French, Belgium, Polish pilots who seem to know what they are doing, but I wasn't actually referring to the flight deck alone, more to the industry itself..
It was the introduction of the EASA FTL’s that annoyed a lot of British based pilots just prior to the Brexit vote. You can see how telling British pilots that you can now increase your max working hours as it will mean another European country you have no connection with will now have safer limits is not exactly going to win Europe much sympathy with British pilots. This nearly swung my vote but thought either way UK will get shafted but better to be in than out.
Talk about democracy when the FTL’s was shambolically voted through in Brussels!
Talk about democracy when the FTL’s was shambolically voted through in Brussels!
I know the whole EASA FTL debate annoyed a lot of people but did anybody really buy into the argument that by voting for Brexit plucky Brits working for British companies would get “good old CAP 371 back” and wouldn’t have to work those nonsense foreign FTLs….
Did anybody seriously think CEOs and the CFOs of British based airlines were going to acquiesce to that?
Did anybody seriously think CEOs and the CFOs of British based airlines were going to acquiesce to that?
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There is no fight back on the cards, the whole thing is perfectly legal and I doubt
any government on national or local level would step in to something that is perfectly legal. We have been using cheap European labour for years so how is this any different to use European pilots flying EU reg aircraft happened to be based here which its legal, because it is aviation? Boris and co have made it plainly clear that they don’t give two hoots about UK aviation other then scoring some manufacturing deals, I think UK pilots and there lisences are way down on the list of priorities unfortunately and it is just the way it is.
any government on national or local level would step in to something that is perfectly legal. We have been using cheap European labour for years so how is this any different to use European pilots flying EU reg aircraft happened to be based here which its legal, because it is aviation? Boris and co have made it plainly clear that they don’t give two hoots about UK aviation other then scoring some manufacturing deals, I think UK pilots and there lisences are way down on the list of priorities unfortunately and it is just the way it is.