Reciprocal agreement with the EU on the transfer of UK CAA Flight Crew Licences.
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lilpilot, do you realise UK citizens have the right to live and work in Ireland? Do you realise there are jobs outside of the EU which require an EASA licence for various reasons?
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And the benefit to the UK of Ryanair operating EASA-registered aircraft with EASA-licenced pilots based in the UK is?
Nothing stopping them as I can see, but why should those who have already held EASA licences need to do it all again?
Nothing stopping them as I can see, but why should those who have already held EASA licences need to do it all again?
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Good question, I wondered that myself. But in the end, the UK signed an international agreement that allows just that. Not that it is yet ratified by the EU, after all, it might still sink which would bring another whole host of problems, like the immediate and complete loss of traffic rights of the EU into the UK and vice versa.
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Holders of EASA licences issued after 1 Jan 2021 are required to complete training as recommended by a UK ATO, complete all theory exams and a skill test with a UK examiner and to gain a UK medical certificate appropriate to that licence.
How can one be 'based' in the UK unless one has the right to work/reside ? In days of gold, therein was the problem first. One of my dreams was to live and work as an airline pilot in the USA. Getting the right to live & work was the first, major hurdle. Same with Canada. Gave up.
Later, lived and worked with an Italian carrier 'based in Milan' on work/res permits and licence validation. Worked just fine. Just prior, in m y former company, Italian division required full UK ATPL writtens and type ratings to fly our UK registered aircraft out of the UK, just for extensive line/training. Politicians just trying to close up potential political loop-holes, I guess.Doesn't half create problems and divisions though.
Later, lived and worked with an Italian carrier 'based in Milan' on work/res permits and licence validation. Worked just fine. Just prior, in m y former company, Italian division required full UK ATPL writtens and type ratings to fly our UK registered aircraft out of the UK, just for extensive line/training. Politicians just trying to close up potential political loop-holes, I guess.Doesn't half create problems and divisions though.
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Quote....And the benefit to the UK of Ryanair operating EASA-registered aircraft with EASA-licenced pilots based in the UK is?
Nothing stopping them as I can see, but why should those who have already held EASA licences need to do it all again?
Ryanair created a UK AOC with 1 G reg aircraft on it. Then tried to wet lease hundreds of EI reg aircraft in. Which was stopped, rules state only 10% of fleet can be wet leased.
Quote...As Denti points out, UK signed the agreement which allows this. DHL UK benefit from the same thing on the other side of the (now hard) border.
Really. So you’re saying G reg aircraft can fly point to point in Europe with UK licence only pilots...Amazing.
Nothing stopping them as I can see, but why should those who have already held EASA licences need to do it all again?
Ryanair created a UK AOC with 1 G reg aircraft on it. Then tried to wet lease hundreds of EI reg aircraft in. Which was stopped, rules state only 10% of fleet can be wet leased.
Quote...As Denti points out, UK signed the agreement which allows this. DHL UK benefit from the same thing on the other side of the (now hard) border.
Really. So you’re saying G reg aircraft can fly point to point in Europe with UK licence only pilots...Amazing.
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Well, cargo is a special case to begin with, under TCA rules. But even without going there, the TCA does provide for wet lease from the UK to the EU, however, only in very limited and special cases. So it is not something that can happen on an everyday level. The other way round there is no such caveat.
For air cargo the TCA provides the express possibility to have bilateral agreements between EU member states and the UK about fifth freedom rights on a reciprocal level. No such provision is given for other air transport operations.
But of course, both areas can dry lease without any restriction from each other area, so there might be D-registered aircraft flying with UK licensed crew within the UK, and G-registered aircraft with EU licensed crew in Germany for example. I have no idea how DHL UK currently operates, but it could be interesting how it works within the confines of the TCA.
The TCA provides no further freedoms apart from 3 to 5, and 5 only for air cargo.
For air cargo the TCA provides the express possibility to have bilateral agreements between EU member states and the UK about fifth freedom rights on a reciprocal level. No such provision is given for other air transport operations.
But of course, both areas can dry lease without any restriction from each other area, so there might be D-registered aircraft flying with UK licensed crew within the UK, and G-registered aircraft with EU licensed crew in Germany for example. I have no idea how DHL UK currently operates, but it could be interesting how it works within the confines of the TCA.
The TCA provides no further freedoms apart from 3 to 5, and 5 only for air cargo.
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Quote....But of course, both areas can dry lease without any restriction from each other area, so there might be D-registered aircraft flying with UK licensed crew within the UK, and G-registered aircraft with EU licensed crew in Germany for example. I have no idea how DHL UK currently operates, but it could be interesting how it works within the confines of the TCA.
If then, as a cargo operator you can dry lease in and out and operate an EASA reg aircraft on a UK licence, then it seems it matters very little what the TCA says anyway.
Still seems a precarious way to run a large business. I know for a fact the French impounded a G-Reg cargo airframe that was operating point to point in France, and this was before Brexit. Cost an exuberant fee to settle too....Be amazed if they weren’t waiting to pounce again.
So yes, it may well prove to be very interesting....
If then, as a cargo operator you can dry lease in and out and operate an EASA reg aircraft on a UK licence, then it seems it matters very little what the TCA says anyway.
Still seems a precarious way to run a large business. I know for a fact the French impounded a G-Reg cargo airframe that was operating point to point in France, and this was before Brexit. Cost an exuberant fee to settle too....Be amazed if they weren’t waiting to pounce again.
So yes, it may well prove to be very interesting....
@DS. I may be mistaken but you seem to have thing about how DHK goes about it’s business - any particular reason? For me if the regulators are ok with it then so am I. If they ever change that, then I guess we’ll deal with it then.
I’m not aware of EASA reg being crewed by UK licences.
I’m not aware of EASA reg being crewed by UK licences.
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With that said it would have been prudent to grandfather in all professional qualifications that were issued during EU membership. Unfortunately this concept didn't make the final agreement, other professions are struggling too: https://www.archdaily.com/959569/uk-...llowing-brexit
I see from your posts that your ATPL exams is your main concern, I do hope they are working on these "ground certificates" and they'll get the proper acknowledgement, on every side. In the event that there's a huge runup and they need to find every single pilot pronto, you can bet on it, that common sense will return to them quickly.
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Wrong, it says German speakers. There are many people who are not from Germany, but who speak German. Same goes for French. The inability of being multilingual doesn’t warrant accusations of only hiring certain nationalities.
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there are many Italians who live in the Piemonte or Lombardy area that either work for German companies or commute to Austria or Switzerland. Maybe you didn’t realize, but the north of Italy is full of German manufacturing.
To indulgence further in your ignorance, besides German speaking countries as Switzerland and Austria, there are many Dutch, Luxembourg,Belgian, Polish and Scandinavians that do speak German.
Maybe odd for you, but a large portion of the European citizens speak more than English as a second tongue.
To indulgence further in your ignorance, besides German speaking countries as Switzerland and Austria, there are many Dutch, Luxembourg,Belgian, Polish and Scandinavians that do speak German.
Maybe odd for you, but a large portion of the European citizens speak more than English as a second tongue.
Last edited by FR9999; 20th Apr 2021 at 22:22.
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lilpilot, thank you for the reply. I was referring to the fact there may be jobs in Ireland which UK citizens are no longer eligible to apply for as their UK EASA licence (valid for life at time of issue) has been rescinded and replaced with a UK licence, not a back-door into living and working elsewhere in the EU. Additionally there are jobs around the world, outside of the EU territorially, which require EASa licences.
To clarify, my main concern is for those who have completed EASA ground examinations and flight tests before 1/1/21 (in any EASA state), and were issued a valid for life EASA licence, but who now have ended up with a UK licence and are unable to get an EASA licence without re-doing it all. This includes those who always had a UK EASA licence, and those who transferred SOLI to a UK EASA licence, often as a condition of employment.
The ability to SOLI out of the UK before 1/1/21 wasn't particularly useful for those working in the UK who would then potentially not be able to sit their next LPC unless their company had EASA licensed examiners and equipment, and would then not be able to fly until they applied for a received their UK licence (after 1/4/21 and with no timescales given).
Added to that is the fact that non-UK EASA licence holders who gained their licences before 1/1/21, doing identical tests and training, can fly in the UK until the end of 2022 using their EASA licences, and gain a UK licence with no additional training or testing. And then the icing on the cake of certain operators demanding EASA licences for UK based roles.
Life is not fair I guess, and while the politicians responsible for this won't be losing any sleep, it has successfully divided us professional aviators who have no real recourse as our regulators are just doing what they are told by the lawmakers.
To clarify, my main concern is for those who have completed EASA ground examinations and flight tests before 1/1/21 (in any EASA state), and were issued a valid for life EASA licence, but who now have ended up with a UK licence and are unable to get an EASA licence without re-doing it all. This includes those who always had a UK EASA licence, and those who transferred SOLI to a UK EASA licence, often as a condition of employment.
The ability to SOLI out of the UK before 1/1/21 wasn't particularly useful for those working in the UK who would then potentially not be able to sit their next LPC unless their company had EASA licensed examiners and equipment, and would then not be able to fly until they applied for a received their UK licence (after 1/4/21 and with no timescales given).
Added to that is the fact that non-UK EASA licence holders who gained their licences before 1/1/21, doing identical tests and training, can fly in the UK until the end of 2022 using their EASA licences, and gain a UK licence with no additional training or testing. And then the icing on the cake of certain operators demanding EASA licences for UK based roles.
Life is not fair I guess, and while the politicians responsible for this won't be losing any sleep, it has successfully divided us professional aviators who have no real recourse as our regulators are just doing what they are told by the lawmakers.