Reciprocal agreement with the EU on the transfer of UK CAA Flight Crew Licences.
For those interested the Danes, very helpful by the way issued me a validation of my U.K. B737 SFE / SFI. This validation is FCL.900c. What that means is that the holder can train EASA trainees but NOT in an EASA member state as of now anyway. Hope that this could be useful info. Very pleasant exchange with the Denmark CAA which as opposed to the passive aggressive, surly and at times downright obstructive treatment from the U.K. CAA was a very pleasing and welcome change.
Last edited by olster; 2nd Apr 2021 at 16:31.
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A validation of a U.K. licence, or at least a quick and easy conversion should be allowed by EASA. Especially from a country that was previously part of EASA. The standards in the U.K. are still a lot higher than in certain EASA countries.
Some non-EASA countries allow operation with a simple validation of an EASA licence, others require a conversion with only a single Air Law exam. EASA can easily apply this for U.K. licences. (Like the U.K. is recognising EASA licences for the next 2 years without any paperwork.)
However, those non-EASA countries recognising EASA licences do this because they are in a need of pilots which can’t be covered by local pilots (e.g. Turkey, U.A.E., Qatar, etc.). So as long as there isn’t a need for non-EASA pilots in the EU, I don’t think this will change soon unfortunately. There are plenty of unemployed EASA pilots available at the moment, so I don’t see EASA accepting non-EASA licences at the moment.
Some non-EASA countries allow operation with a simple validation of an EASA licence, others require a conversion with only a single Air Law exam. EASA can easily apply this for U.K. licences. (Like the U.K. is recognising EASA licences for the next 2 years without any paperwork.)
However, those non-EASA countries recognising EASA licences do this because they are in a need of pilots which can’t be covered by local pilots (e.g. Turkey, U.A.E., Qatar, etc.). So as long as there isn’t a need for non-EASA pilots in the EU, I don’t think this will change soon unfortunately. There are plenty of unemployed EASA pilots available at the moment, so I don’t see EASA accepting non-EASA licences at the moment.
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Without sounding pompous, I believe we were provided more than ample time to change state if required. A lot of people were hoping for positive negotiations during the brexit talks. Some of us saw the writing on the wall and had no confidence in the incompetent Conservative government. Any petition going forward should be in regards to incompetence, and not about equal terms.
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Not really. Having multiple different States issued licences becomes a headache during LPC renewals as each country has their own specific procedure (thumbs up EASA), hence airlines tend to have all pilots aligned on the same State license, especially when employing a few thousand pilots.
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That's what my employer says, but the training department has also said they can't prevent us from changing the SOLI of our licence. The downside is that the individual pilot will have to organise the paperwork and advise the examiner in advance.
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End of the day, BREXIT and leaving EASA was supposedly the will of the people...
To my knowledge, EASA treat all ‘third countries’ the same. And much like the EU, it is a choice to be in or out. No judgement. But expecting special treatment from EASA, especially given the present political situation, might not be completely realistic me thinks..
To be frank. The information about what would happen to UK issued EASA licenses was both clear and readily available well before each and every deadline subsequently extended during the BREXIT negotiations.
As an EU Citizen living, working and raising a family in the UK until recently, keeping my EASA License was one of many BREXIT flavoured reasons why we did our own ‘exit’.
Leaving a good job and a settled life is never easy, but as has been shown, cakeism doesn’t really work when faced with reality... Staying put (and losing my EASA License) would have been a choice with consequences. Our decision to leave was a choice with other consequences, both in terms of career and family life.
On the individual level, this whole EASA vs CAA Licensing issue sucks. But in reality, compared to the grand scale of all things BREXIT, the number of people affected by flight crew licensing sort of pales in comparison.
I sincerely hope that some kind of solution is found in due course. But this ‘EASA MUST RECIPROCATE’ statement is perhaps a tiny bit naive. The UK has unilaterally decided to become a third country to EASA. And now they are. A bit blunt perhaps. But no less true?
To my knowledge, EASA treat all ‘third countries’ the same. And much like the EU, it is a choice to be in or out. No judgement. But expecting special treatment from EASA, especially given the present political situation, might not be completely realistic me thinks..
To be frank. The information about what would happen to UK issued EASA licenses was both clear and readily available well before each and every deadline subsequently extended during the BREXIT negotiations.
As an EU Citizen living, working and raising a family in the UK until recently, keeping my EASA License was one of many BREXIT flavoured reasons why we did our own ‘exit’.
Leaving a good job and a settled life is never easy, but as has been shown, cakeism doesn’t really work when faced with reality... Staying put (and losing my EASA License) would have been a choice with consequences. Our decision to leave was a choice with other consequences, both in terms of career and family life.
On the individual level, this whole EASA vs CAA Licensing issue sucks. But in reality, compared to the grand scale of all things BREXIT, the number of people affected by flight crew licensing sort of pales in comparison.
I sincerely hope that some kind of solution is found in due course. But this ‘EASA MUST RECIPROCATE’ statement is perhaps a tiny bit naive. The UK has unilaterally decided to become a third country to EASA. And now they are. A bit blunt perhaps. But no less true?
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I don’t know how big your employer is, but with 4/5K + pilots it’s virtually impossible to handle multiple Licences.
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Would I be able to win an unlawful dissmissal lawsuit? Possibly. Do I want to risk my ability to bring food to the table, and spend thousands of EUR for legal fees to sue my employer, who will categorise costs as "rounding error"? Not really.
EASA Examiner Differences document has over 100 pages. That's the problem. Every EASA member state has their own licencing authority, who interprets EASA regulation in their own way, with their unique procedures, which ultimately achieve the same goal.
A pan-European licencing authority would solve all these problems, but I doubt we'll see that anytime soon.
You’re right about the EDD, but this is bread and butter for a multi licensed airline. This week was LPC on UK and Ireland. Next week it’s Germany. After that can’t remember. You don’t need to remember all 100 pages, just be able to interpret the ones relevant to today’s check.
I suspect you’re also right about the likelihood of a pan European licensing agency!
I suspect you’re also right about the likelihood of a pan European licensing agency!
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Bread and butter, sure. But it's definitely in orders of magnitude easier having all pilots with the same SOLI. One set of rules, one set of forms, one authority to deal with. Less complexity, smoother process.
Imagine a hypothetical airline which has 31 pilots. Which one would spend less resources (time = money) - the one where all pilots have licence issued by the same authority, or the one where every pilot has their licence issued by a different EASA member state (there are 31 of them)?
Imagine a hypothetical airline which has 31 pilots. Which one would spend less resources (time = money) - the one where all pilots have licence issued by the same authority, or the one where every pilot has their licence issued by a different EASA member state (there are 31 of them)?
No argument from me on the simplicity front - my life would be a whole lot easier, but I doubt my airline has much to do with individual licences or authorities. The bulk of the work is down to the TREs.
Since I’m doing LPC for my Head of Training soon I’ll ask him!
Since I’m doing LPC for my Head of Training soon I’ll ask him!
It’s not just the EDD issue. There are numerous differences between NAAs on all manor of licensing and medical issues. E.g. examiner signature for LPC vs new licence issue; time to issue new rating (days vs months!); different acceptance of medical conditions, to name just a few.
COVID derogation management was also a nightmare with multiple different interpretations of EASA guidance.
COVID derogation management was also a nightmare with multiple different interpretations of EASA guidance.
I’m sure you’re correct. I just don’t know how we’ve managed over the years. Even now with currently 14 different states of issue.
Anyway, somehow I seem to have drifted the thread so apologies for that. Happy Easter all.
Anyway, somehow I seem to have drifted the thread so apologies for that. Happy Easter all.
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DEMOCRACY
Dumbest thing was to ask the general population whether it was better to leave the EU or not as 90% of the voters did not have an damned clue about the political and economical consequences of voting yes or no. Those are the results. Anyway, UK/EASA should have mutual recognitions... anything different is just ridiculous.
Why should it have mutual recognition? do not even have it with the FAA or TC and are commonwealth!
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Sounds like the best way to resolve the issue is for the U.K. to rejoin EASA in some capacity. Can’t see any other way forward really.
All hail Boris and his world beating leadership!
All hail Boris and his world beating leadership!
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deltahotel
As others have said, every country has a different procedure for test notifications, paperwork filling and, most important, license endorsements. Some NAAs are VERY picky and the tiniest mistake in filling the papers or the license can easily get you reported to the NAA that issued your TRE authorization.
Sometimes I do understand the UK will to get rid of all this nonsense.
As others have said, every country has a different procedure for test notifications, paperwork filling and, most important, license endorsements. Some NAAs are VERY picky and the tiniest mistake in filling the papers or the license can easily get you reported to the NAA that issued your TRE authorization.
Sometimes I do understand the UK will to get rid of all this nonsense.
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I think there is not even 1 (one) pilot who would like to xfer from EASA to UK CAA.
The majority of the Brits voted for BREXIT. So now every one in the UK has to live with it. Sorry!
There are too many unemployed pilots in the EU, So take it as it is.
The work permit would be the second hurdle btw.
The majority of the Brits voted for BREXIT. So now every one in the UK has to live with it. Sorry!
There are too many unemployed pilots in the EU, So take it as it is.
The work permit would be the second hurdle btw.
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Few pilots wanted to leave EASA so that’s hardly surprising. This whole “you voted for it, sorry” attitude is something else. Regardless of what people voted for few want this mess.
I’m also not entirely sure why those whining about Brits working across Europe are doing so. From what I see theres far more Europeans working in the U.K. than the other way around. If you exclude Ryr and EJ I’d guess there’s all but a handful of Brits working for EU carriers.
I’m also not entirely sure why those whining about Brits working across Europe are doing so. From what I see theres far more Europeans working in the U.K. than the other way around. If you exclude Ryr and EJ I’d guess there’s all but a handful of Brits working for EU carriers.