Reciprocal agreement with the EU on the transfer of UK CAA Flight Crew Licences.
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I totally get why EU citizens would be pretty peed off at the way "the UK" is behaving.
However, please bear in mind that only 17.4 million people voted in favour of Brexit, and very few of those expected other than "sunlit uplands".
Most people in this country are victims of a far right wing cult. As I said, I totally get EU citizens' frustration with the UK, but the more entrenched positions become, the more people lose sight of the fact that we are all humans, the harder it becomes to eventually reverse this madness.
However, please bear in mind that only 17.4 million people voted in favour of Brexit, and very few of those expected other than "sunlit uplands".
Most people in this country are victims of a far right wing cult. As I said, I totally get EU citizens' frustration with the UK, but the more entrenched positions become, the more people lose sight of the fact that we are all humans, the harder it becomes to eventually reverse this madness.
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The government's decision not to stay with EASA is frustrating and damaging for UK aviation, but now we're seeing how Europe is weaponising any remaining influence it has, you can see how leaving the ECJ as a cornerstone of UK aviation could have become a true nightmare.
I have looked for the aer Lingus advert and can't find it, but presumably, it is open to British citizens, but they must have an EASA licence - and that is the beef amongst the Brits in the middle East. Surely though, there are loads of British pilots with EASA licences, many of whom converted in the run up to 2021, enough to fill the vacancies at any rate?
I have looked for the aer Lingus advert and can't find it, but presumably, it is open to British citizens, but they must have an EASA licence - and that is the beef amongst the Brits in the middle East. Surely though, there are loads of British pilots with EASA licences, many of whom converted in the run up to 2021, enough to fill the vacancies at any rate?
Last edited by Joe le Taxi; 1st Apr 2021 at 15:21.
I am surprised that there is not a legal challenge to this. Essentially we all do the same job. If you fly a B737 for Lufthansa or Jet2 it is all the same and the same standard. This is really Alice in Wonderland stuff. I am not interested in controversy or having an internet spat. This whole situation is beyond stupid with a spectacular lack of common sense. It is not fair on professional pilots either side of the channel who have their employment opportunities taken away. I do not have the inside track so have no idea whether the CAA wished to stay in EASA or not. My experiences with the CAA over a 40 year career have not left me with a warm feeling. Essentially the CAA, Balpa and the governmental protagonists have let the pilot community down. As already said I have had a long career mainly unhindered by politics. This is a real shame and I still hope common sense in the form of reciprocity can occur. My sympathies are with all posters whether they voted for Brexit or not, Brit or European.
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olster
That is the point. We do indeed all the same job, whether we fly with a FAA license, an EASA one or a UK one. The thing is that a rather large change happend to the UK. The UK has now a lesser status than our US colleagues, imply due to choices made by the UK government. And yet, all three of us do the same job. But there is no escaping the fact that the UK is now a third country and not in the EU anymore, which does, inevitably, have consequences on both sides. And in the case of europeans, they did not have a say in that at all, even if they lived and worked in the UK.
As to a legal challenge, the question is, in front of what court? On which side?
That is the point. We do indeed all the same job, whether we fly with a FAA license, an EASA one or a UK one. The thing is that a rather large change happend to the UK. The UK has now a lesser status than our US colleagues, imply due to choices made by the UK government. And yet, all three of us do the same job. But there is no escaping the fact that the UK is now a third country and not in the EU anymore, which does, inevitably, have consequences on both sides. And in the case of europeans, they did not have a say in that at all, even if they lived and worked in the UK.
As to a legal challenge, the question is, in front of what court? On which side?
That is fairly obvious: In an EU court by an EU citizen who has been disadvantaged by an EU decision.
At the end of the day it's common sense that the 'spirit' of EASA is that there should be a common standard - so to revoke recognition for purely political reasons is wrong. Ok, so the CAA has left EASA, they can't now issue new EASA licences, but their old ones were done to EASA standards, in many cases in EASA countries with EASA examiners so to say that they somehow no longer meet that standard is farcical.
At the end of the day it's common sense that the 'spirit' of EASA is that there should be a common standard - so to revoke recognition for purely political reasons is wrong. Ok, so the CAA has left EASA, they can't now issue new EASA licences, but their old ones were done to EASA standards, in many cases in EASA countries with EASA examiners so to say that they somehow no longer meet that standard is farcical.
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Of course not. It would not be fair on other professions in the same circumstances. Firstly, this is a pilot (hence no requirement to discuss other jobs) rumour network and secondly why does everything have to be disputed or an argument on the internet? I am not interested.
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rude-stuff
Which would lead british pilots still with just a british license. Based on nationality there is a case to be made for EU citizens, as i posted several times above. They were disadvantaged, though with ample, very clear and precise, three years of warning by EASA. British pilots and british resident pilots are not disadvantaged, they still hold a british license.
And of course, you completely dismiss the element of oversight, which is crucial to any safety sensitive area.
That said, there was a clear advise from EASA to switch to EASA licenses as early as possible. And everyone could start that process until the end of last year where EASA oversight was still present. There is a clear reason why bigger players like the orange bunch switched their continental crews to non-UK licenses (more than two years ago already), and supposedly even quite a few UK based trainers as well. All based on publicly available advise. In the end, there will always be some who miss out on a deadline issue, but judging from the number of posters on this thread compared to the many SOLI threads, it is actually quite a small number.
Of course one can try a legal case, which, in any case, will take at least 3 to 5 years, a time probable better spent on just getting on with it and regaining the license the "normal" way if one needs it right now.
Which would lead british pilots still with just a british license. Based on nationality there is a case to be made for EU citizens, as i posted several times above. They were disadvantaged, though with ample, very clear and precise, three years of warning by EASA. British pilots and british resident pilots are not disadvantaged, they still hold a british license.
And of course, you completely dismiss the element of oversight, which is crucial to any safety sensitive area.
That said, there was a clear advise from EASA to switch to EASA licenses as early as possible. And everyone could start that process until the end of last year where EASA oversight was still present. There is a clear reason why bigger players like the orange bunch switched their continental crews to non-UK licenses (more than two years ago already), and supposedly even quite a few UK based trainers as well. All based on publicly available advise. In the end, there will always be some who miss out on a deadline issue, but judging from the number of posters on this thread compared to the many SOLI threads, it is actually quite a small number.
Of course one can try a legal case, which, in any case, will take at least 3 to 5 years, a time probable better spent on just getting on with it and regaining the license the "normal" way if one needs it right now.
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And everyone could start that process until the end of last year where EASA oversight was still present.
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I would sue the administrators of that employer then. And of course, it would mean, that that employer went bankrupt in 2021, in 2020 there would have been still time to start the SOLI transfer.
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Why is it not possible to simply apply for a new EASA licence off the back of training / licences held pre-Brexit when said training or licences would have met all EASA standards, regulations and oversight? I understand the UK is now recognised as a third country and anything issued from 1st Jan 2021 onwards suffers a different fate but I’m unable to find any regulation that would not make this possible. Infact EASA adopted that when JAR became EASA:
Is it simply because this wasn’t negotiated by the UK in the TCA agreement? As far as I understand it there is still scope for further adoption of Annexes by both sides into said agreement:
Understandably there is a lot of heat on this topic so presumably it’s politically driven but theres little to be gained in all reality. Regardless of what licence you may have Brexit has removed certain fundamental working privileges from both sides of the channel which remains the biggest hinderance.
COMMISSION REGULATION (EU) No 1178/2011
of 3 November 2011
laying down technical requirements and administrative procedures related to civil aviation aircrew pursuant to Regulation (EC) No 216/2008 of the European Parliament and of the Council
Article 9
Credit for training commenced prior to the application of this Regulation
▼M11
1.
In respect of issuing Part-FCL licences in accordance with Annex I, training commenced prior to the application of this Regulation in accordance with the JARs and procedures, under the regulatory oversight of a Member State recommended for mutual recognition within the Joint Aviation Authorities’ system in relation to the relevant JARs, shall be given full credit provided that the training and testing were completed by 8 April 2016 at the latest and a Part-FCL licence is issued by 1 April 2020 at the latest.
▼B
2.
Training commenced prior to the application of this Regulation in accordance with Annex 1 to the Chicago Convention shall be given credit for the purposes of issuing Part-FCL licences on the basis of a credit report established by the Member State in consultation with the Agency.
3.
The credit report shall describe the scope of the training, indicate for which requirements of Part-FCL licences credit is given and, if applicable, which requirements applicants need to comply with in order to be issued with Part-FCL licences. It shall include copies of all documents necessary to demonstrate the scope of the training and of the national regulations and procedures in accordance with which the training was commenced.
of 3 November 2011
laying down technical requirements and administrative procedures related to civil aviation aircrew pursuant to Regulation (EC) No 216/2008 of the European Parliament and of the Council
Article 9
Credit for training commenced prior to the application of this Regulation
▼M11
1.
In respect of issuing Part-FCL licences in accordance with Annex I, training commenced prior to the application of this Regulation in accordance with the JARs and procedures, under the regulatory oversight of a Member State recommended for mutual recognition within the Joint Aviation Authorities’ system in relation to the relevant JARs, shall be given full credit provided that the training and testing were completed by 8 April 2016 at the latest and a Part-FCL licence is issued by 1 April 2020 at the latest.
▼B
2.
Training commenced prior to the application of this Regulation in accordance with Annex 1 to the Chicago Convention shall be given credit for the purposes of issuing Part-FCL licences on the basis of a credit report established by the Member State in consultation with the Agency.
3.
The credit report shall describe the scope of the training, indicate for which requirements of Part-FCL licences credit is given and, if applicable, which requirements applicants need to comply with in order to be issued with Part-FCL licences. It shall include copies of all documents necessary to demonstrate the scope of the training and of the national regulations and procedures in accordance with which the training was commenced.
- The first stages of that agreement have been incorporated in the Aviation Safety Title of the TCA. The TCA commits the parties to establish a Specialised Committee on Aviation Safety which is empowered to adopt Annexes for personnel licensing, ATM, aircraft operations and other areas covered by the Chicago Convention. Once agreed, each party is obliged to accept findings of compliance and certificates issued by the other party in accordance with any Annex.
Last edited by Field Required; 2nd Apr 2021 at 10:02.
The whole thrust of the Brexit argument was to "take back control" and "to control who has the right to work in the UK". Once the UK Govt . indicated they really were going ahead it was clear that there was great risk that we would finish up where we are now. People warned on here several years ago that the CAA had no people or resources to do anything quickly and the Govt sure as hell weren't intending to provide them. The risks were clear and there was a way to protect yourself if you moved with any speed at all. It was also a certainty that the EU wouldn't continue licensing after a hard Brexit - legally they can't and there is zero political will or benefit for them to change things. Politicians mouthing off about "having or cake and eating it " only poured petrol on the flames.
Fairness doesn't cut much ice with lawyers I'm afraid. Pilots aren't the only sufferers either
Fairness doesn't cut much ice with lawyers I'm afraid. Pilots aren't the only sufferers either
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Field Required the UK, as you know, adopted all EU law before exit day and amended it with the Aviation Safety Act, which effectively repeatedly deletes the terms 'EASA' and 'member state' and replaces them with 'UK CAA'. Thus it is bound by Article 8 of EU decision 1178/2011 which says that, absent a two way agreement between States, the UK can convert foreign licences giving, in the case of ATPLs, credit against approved training but requiring all 13 TK exams to be taken and an ATPL skills test on type. EASA is bound by their equivalent, which is now amended to Article 3 of something else - can't remember. This means that licence reciprocity needs either (i) a bilateral agreement between UK and EASA, which is apparently being pursued but even if successful may take years, or could be done in a day if there was political will or (ii) a change in the law on both sides of the Channel. Obviously (i) is easier, but depends entirely on the political will being there on both sides.
rudestuff
It wasn't an EU decision, it was a UK gov decision based on 'the will of the people'.
How can EASA oversee the licences of current personel if the CAA, having withdrawn from EASA, can not be forced to comply with EASA regulation, should it change over the next few years? The UK has decided it does not want to be told what to do by the ECJ. By default that means EASA cannot tell the CAA what to do either.
It s a bl00dy mess and the UK has only itself to blame for allowing a populist opinion to get out of hand. But lets save that for Jet Blast.
It wasn't an EU decision, it was a UK gov decision based on 'the will of the people'.
How can EASA oversee the licences of current personel if the CAA, having withdrawn from EASA, can not be forced to comply with EASA regulation, should it change over the next few years? The UK has decided it does not want to be told what to do by the ECJ. By default that means EASA cannot tell the CAA what to do either.
It s a bl00dy mess and the UK has only itself to blame for allowing a populist opinion to get out of hand. But lets save that for Jet Blast.
??? We’re talking about the EUs refusal to acknowledge that training done under EASA is still valid. That is *entirely* an EU decision. The CAA have done the decent thing, the EU are refusing to allow a common sense approach.
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TURIN
As rudestuff points out it is an EU/EASA decision not to recognise or validate pre-Brexit EASA training / credentials.
EASA cant oversee anything the UK does from 1st Jan onwards, thats accepted, but what I struggle to understand is why/how EASA doesn’t recognise training or UK issued licences / medicals pre 31/12/20 as meeting EASA standards/regulations for the purpose of gaining a new licence in a member state.
All of my training documents from course completion through to skills tests and PC checks state clearly that said course/test was conducted and met EU regulation No 1178/2011 as amended and issued in accordance with Part FCL.
So you have a situation whereby (Pre-Brexit) individuals completed an EASA course, in an EASA country, in an EASA aircraft, with an EASA examiner, meeting all EU standards and regulations, completed all EASA paperwork but can’t now apply for a new EASA licence.
My EASA course completion form literally states:
[QUOTE]12. Declaration
-I certify that I have examined the applicants flying log and the entries in them meet in full the flying experience requirements for the grant of the licence and/or rating in accordance with Part-FCL.
-I certify that the applicant has met the pre-requisite requirements in accordance with Part-FCL prior to commencing a course of training and has satisfactorily completed a course of training and has passed a skill test in accordance with Part-FCL for the issue of the licence and/or rating detailed above.
-I certify that the applicant has satisfactorily passed all of the required theoretical examinations, radiotelephony practical test and language proficiency requirements for the grant of the licence as outlined in section 10.
If a SOLI was possible how can a new licence issue not be possible? Does an assessment of competence pertain only to instructor and/or examiner privileges?
As rudestuff points out it is an EU/EASA decision not to recognise or validate pre-Brexit EASA training / credentials.
EASA cant oversee anything the UK does from 1st Jan onwards, thats accepted, but what I struggle to understand is why/how EASA doesn’t recognise training or UK issued licences / medicals pre 31/12/20 as meeting EASA standards/regulations for the purpose of gaining a new licence in a member state.
All of my training documents from course completion through to skills tests and PC checks state clearly that said course/test was conducted and met EU regulation No 1178/2011 as amended and issued in accordance with Part FCL.
So you have a situation whereby (Pre-Brexit) individuals completed an EASA course, in an EASA country, in an EASA aircraft, with an EASA examiner, meeting all EU standards and regulations, completed all EASA paperwork but can’t now apply for a new EASA licence.
My EASA course completion form literally states:
[QUOTE]12. Declaration
-I certify that I have examined the applicants flying log and the entries in them meet in full the flying experience requirements for the grant of the licence and/or rating in accordance with Part-FCL.
-I certify that the applicant has met the pre-requisite requirements in accordance with Part-FCL prior to commencing a course of training and has satisfactorily completed a course of training and has passed a skill test in accordance with Part-FCL for the issue of the licence and/or rating detailed above.
-I certify that the applicant has satisfactorily passed all of the required theoretical examinations, radiotelephony practical test and language proficiency requirements for the grant of the licence as outlined in section 10.
FCL.015 Application and issue, revalidation and renewal of licences, ratings and certificates
a)
An application for the issue, revalidation or renewal of pilot licences and associated ratings and certificates as well as any amendment thereto shall be submitted to the competent authority in a form and manner established by that authority. The application shall be accompanied by evidence that applicants comply with the requirements for the issue, revalidation or renewal of the licence or certificate as well as associated ratings or endorsements established in this Annex (Part-FCL) and in Annex IV (Part-MED).
(e)
The holder of a licence that has been issued in accordance with this Annex (Part-FCL) may apply to the competent authority designated by another Member State for a change of competent authority relating to all licences held, as specified in paragraph (d).
(f)
For the issue of a licence, rating or certificate the applicant shall apply not later than 6 months after having succeeded at the skill test or assessment of competence.
a)
An application for the issue, revalidation or renewal of pilot licences and associated ratings and certificates as well as any amendment thereto shall be submitted to the competent authority in a form and manner established by that authority. The application shall be accompanied by evidence that applicants comply with the requirements for the issue, revalidation or renewal of the licence or certificate as well as associated ratings or endorsements established in this Annex (Part-FCL) and in Annex IV (Part-MED).
(e)
The holder of a licence that has been issued in accordance with this Annex (Part-FCL) may apply to the competent authority designated by another Member State for a change of competent authority relating to all licences held, as specified in paragraph (d).
(f)
For the issue of a licence, rating or certificate the applicant shall apply not later than 6 months after having succeeded at the skill test or assessment of competence.
Last edited by Field Required; 2nd Apr 2021 at 18:51.
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UK issued medicals that were transferred before exit day are recognised, and now cannot be transferred because you can't transfer SOLI into an EASA State from a non-EASA state. If you have all the certificates for licence issue, all UK issued before exit day and all still valid, at the last look some Member States would still accept them (it was Austria and Denmark) because the advice from EASA not to do so was not an EU Decision, only an EASA recommendation, it had no legal force. Of course you would need a new EASA Class 1 held in the member State.