Reciprocal agreement with the EU on the transfer of UK CAA Flight Crew Licences.
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Then ask the UK government to become part of EASA again. But they won't, they don't want to. They don't care about you, about their pilots, about their carriers, about their infrastracture (bye bye LPV).
Don't blame EASA or the EU, blame the UK Government.
Don't blame EASA or the EU, blame the UK Government.
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I blame all political parties involved in creating this mess for many professional pilots who simply want to do their job.
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Contact Approach
While the frustration is understandable, there is only one party to blame. It was the UK that wanted to leave the EU, not the other way round. It was the UK that wanted out of EASA, not the other way round. It was purely the choice of the UK to do this thing and additionally to accept EASA licenses. There is only one party to blame.
While the frustration is understandable, there is only one party to blame. It was the UK that wanted to leave the EU, not the other way round. It was the UK that wanted out of EASA, not the other way round. It was purely the choice of the UK to do this thing and additionally to accept EASA licenses. There is only one party to blame.
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Breach of Contract
I paid cash to the CAA for the issue of an EASA Licence which was valid in all EASA states and also included recognition in some non EU member EASA associated countries such as Norway, Liechtenstein, Switzerland and Iceland.
The CAA have once again stolen my licence privileges as they periodically do (IMC rating and BCPL).
Have we passed the point were the CAA can no longer be trusted with the basic responsibility for pilot licensing ?
Do pilots with British issued Licences need to form their own Professional Licencing Institute similar to the BMA for medical doctors or the Law Society for solicitors or the Institute of Chartered Accountants for Accountants. This non Governmental professional body could then negotiate directly with EASA for mutual recognition for its members qualifications independently free from the ideology of the Government of the Day on the understanding that with recognition our members would have to accept the jurisdiction of the ECJ while exercising their professional licence privileges
The CAA have once again stolen my licence privileges as they periodically do (IMC rating and BCPL).
Have we passed the point were the CAA can no longer be trusted with the basic responsibility for pilot licensing ?
Do pilots with British issued Licences need to form their own Professional Licencing Institute similar to the BMA for medical doctors or the Law Society for solicitors or the Institute of Chartered Accountants for Accountants. This non Governmental professional body could then negotiate directly with EASA for mutual recognition for its members qualifications independently free from the ideology of the Government of the Day on the understanding that with recognition our members would have to accept the jurisdiction of the ECJ while exercising their professional licence privileges
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Wow you guys are so petty its unbelievable.
Without doubt the UK Gov have screwed everybody and they are the ones to blame but what has that got to do with Pilots and why should those who aren’t involved with that mess have to suffer?
Without doubt the UK Gov have screwed everybody and they are the ones to blame but what has that got to do with Pilots and why should those who aren’t involved with that mess have to suffer?
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You live in a crystal ball, don't you? People were warned about the consequences of Brexit. The UK CAA tried warning the UK Government of the impending mitake. In my little I suggested a few friends in their training to sit their exams under Aerocontrol instead of the UK CAA. It was all already too much clear 2 years ago.
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The simple fact is that an ideologically driven, Little Englander mentality, UK Government have screwed up the life chances of so many people, not just Pilots, not just Brits.
Theresa Mays Red lines and Johnson/Shapps lack of intelligence/ integrity are to blame, not the EU. And yet, and yet, so many Pilots I know voted for Brexit and so many would do so again.
Maybe the penny will finally drop, that the U.K. is a competitor to the EU and Global Britain is a painful joke. A joke nonetheless that its people need to suffer, not everything can be blamed on Europe.
Theresa Mays Red lines and Johnson/Shapps lack of intelligence/ integrity are to blame, not the EU. And yet, and yet, so many Pilots I know voted for Brexit and so many would do so again.
Maybe the penny will finally drop, that the U.K. is a competitor to the EU and Global Britain is a painful joke. A joke nonetheless that its people need to suffer, not everything can be blamed on Europe.
I care for my EU collegues first, and as I said I'd agree with the petition as long as it's for EU nationals only. What I'm seeing as a result is that I won't be flying from a UK base anytime soon and UK pilots won't be flying from an EU one...win-win, right?
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Paul Rice
As you pointed out, a state does not need to be an EU member state to be full member state of EASA, which all of the mentioned states are. And of course there are many other levels of agreements possible, yet, the UK decided to have no agreement whatsoever. No bilateral agreement, no technical cooperation, no memorandum of understanding and no working arrangement. And least of all, there is no EASA representative office in the UK, and no UK management board observer at EASA. Which means the UK has a more distant relationship with EASA than countries like Singapore, India, Thailand and Kazakhstan.
The idea of a professional licensing institute sounds interesting, but of course that would require the UK government to relinquish regulatory control over a professional sector, and the EU to accept it. For most professional qualifications to be accepted from the UK into the EU, it has to be done in each single EU member state, with the exception of certain professions that are EU regulated like pilots (sic), ATCOs, lawyers, seafarers and others. In the end an approach like that could de-politicize the whole issue and make it easier for both sides.
As you pointed out, a state does not need to be an EU member state to be full member state of EASA, which all of the mentioned states are. And of course there are many other levels of agreements possible, yet, the UK decided to have no agreement whatsoever. No bilateral agreement, no technical cooperation, no memorandum of understanding and no working arrangement. And least of all, there is no EASA representative office in the UK, and no UK management board observer at EASA. Which means the UK has a more distant relationship with EASA than countries like Singapore, India, Thailand and Kazakhstan.
The idea of a professional licensing institute sounds interesting, but of course that would require the UK government to relinquish regulatory control over a professional sector, and the EU to accept it. For most professional qualifications to be accepted from the UK into the EU, it has to be done in each single EU member state, with the exception of certain professions that are EU regulated like pilots (sic), ATCOs, lawyers, seafarers and others. In the end an approach like that could de-politicize the whole issue and make it easier for both sides.
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It’s not just aviation the EU do not accept any regulations that it cannot supervise, the UK decided to leave EASA nothing now complies with their rules. The ridiculous part is that at present our standards are exactly the same, we have not diverged, the way forward is for the UK to rejoin EASA, they are not going to accept our regulation unless they can supervise them.
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Professional Pilots Institute
A independent professional institute which welcomes all pilots of any nationality or background who currently hold or who have held an EASA Pilots Licence. Pilots retain their licences as issued by their respective licensing authorities. Pilot membership grade within the institute is a function of the licence held ATPL, CPL, PPL, LAPL and the ratings that are current are closely monitored. The institute seeks EASA professional validation for its members who have been placed in distress by their national aviation authority by quality checking members credentials and acting as a bridge between the individual member and EASA thus acting as a refuge of professional asylum for displaced licence holders. The institute strives to becomes an inter state non national competent authority and seeks to mature into a full working member of EASA in due course.
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No agreement required
The CAA has no jurisdiction over what professional associations or institutions its licence holders choose to join. If a professional association or institution secures an advantage for its members on the basis of the members holding a licence again it has nothing to do with the CAA. E.G a pilots union negotiating preferential life insurance for its members on the basis of the occupation group requires no agreement from the CAA. If the professional institute gains international validations of UK Licences for its members it has nothing to do at all with the CAA. I am sure that EASA would welcome the opportunity for continued co-operation and harmonisation with as wide a group of pilots as possible. In due course if the Professional Institute gains recognition by EASA as a competent authority then individual pilots might rely on their professional membership of the institute for their on going licensing while some might also choose to keep a CAA licence active in the background.
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I doubt it would be that easy. Again, the EU will require robust legal oversight and enforcement of rules, subject to ECJ ruling and laws decided solely by EU members. And of course, licenses in the UK will remain under the oversight of the CAA and subject to laws and rules issued by UK ministers (not parliament anymore, they have squandered away their sovereignty). And of course the main reason not to align with EU rules was to diverge from those. It might be in minor matters, or in major matters. And of course, EU rules and laws evolve constantly, there is new secondary law issued by EASA roughly once a month, not completely, but in single issue topics. The UK would have to follow those rules to be considered of the same level, and not only for the moment, but for the future as well. After all, the EU deals with other governments, not professional associations except for lobbying reasons.
And in the end licensing, unlike insurance deals, is about legal government oversight and enforcement. However, personally i would love to se that play out, but i have no high hopes about a construct like that.
And in the end licensing, unlike insurance deals, is about legal government oversight and enforcement. However, personally i would love to se that play out, but i have no high hopes about a construct like that.
Totally agree Blake,
The CAA have made it clear for the last two years what would happen in the event of a no deal and they wanted to reman in EASA as there was no particular area in which they felt the need to diverge. Leaving EASA was pointless as far as they were concerned, particularly as they were heavily involved in creating it. In the end we effectively got no deal for licencing and the bare bones air service package to keep the aircraft flying. At the time two years or so ago when the CAA published the "unlikely but we have to prepare for it plan" liar Johnson was running into an election supposedly with an oven deal ready promising everyone that the chances of no deal was a million to one. Amazingly, people fell for these blatant lies assumed everything would work out and gave the liar an eighty seat majority. It was always going to be no deal from then on. Shapps was well aware of the consequences but in order to save his ministerial skin, he said and did nothing. The little Englanders in the ERG got their way and we all suffer just because EASA contains the E word. The only person to blame here is liar Johnson.
The CAA have made it clear for the last two years what would happen in the event of a no deal and they wanted to reman in EASA as there was no particular area in which they felt the need to diverge. Leaving EASA was pointless as far as they were concerned, particularly as they were heavily involved in creating it. In the end we effectively got no deal for licencing and the bare bones air service package to keep the aircraft flying. At the time two years or so ago when the CAA published the "unlikely but we have to prepare for it plan" liar Johnson was running into an election supposedly with an oven deal ready promising everyone that the chances of no deal was a million to one. Amazingly, people fell for these blatant lies assumed everything would work out and gave the liar an eighty seat majority. It was always going to be no deal from then on. Shapps was well aware of the consequences but in order to save his ministerial skin, he said and did nothing. The little Englanders in the ERG got their way and we all suffer just because EASA contains the E word. The only person to blame here is liar Johnson.
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Formation of the Institute of Pilots
1 April 1918 saw the formation of the Royal Air Force so the 1 April does seem to be a favourable day to establish an aviation organisation such as an Institute of Pilots to protect the qualifications of its members from political persecution and administrative incompetence. As the CAA have devalued the UK Licence from having a validity throughout EASA to having a validity in the the UK only they can no longer be trusted with the responsibility of safeguarding the value of the Licences that they issue. Given the scale of investment in the Licence, the interconnectivity of the aviation industry the CAA Licence is no longer a viable instrument unless it is recognised respected and easily validated within EASA. As a UK Governmental body the CAA is incapable of achieving this and so the Institute of Pilots mission should be to form today as a non Governmental Body representing EASA Licence holders who have had their licence privileges stolen from them by the CAA. The aim of the Institute is the recognition of members qualifications and the facilitation of EASA validation of those qualifications. The Institute of Pilots has to be the Gold Standard upon which EASA can rely upon to support the now unstable CAA Licence. This process will not be easy but with pragmatism and a practical approach it may work. Are there enough unemployed pilots with organisational talent, time on their hands and the drive to set this up ?
A good plan in theory and there are plenty of unemployed pilots around but the CAA is just a regulator. It works for the Government as an aviation police officer ensuring laws and regulations written by Government are complied with. Its role through the Brexit negotiations was to provide technical advice and I am sure it did. Sadly, the politicians weren't interested in opinions from experts they had only one aim.
It is staggering that the UK negotiators who"held all the cards" and were going to get an even better deal than the one we already have, with no downsides, have managed to negotiate the best possible deal for Irish pilots and the very worst for UK pilots. Good luck to our Irish colleagues and things are already starting to fall into place in MANbase. its no wonder Rees-Mogg moved part of his hedge fund to Dublin. I knows its going to be boom time over there.
In the midst of all this stupidity, the Government has from June also managed to cancel its subscription to the EGNOS Safety Of Life part of the Galileo project taking away a great opportunity to enhance safety in the UK by upgrading approaches at smaller airports and improving helicopter operations for minimal cost. All because there is an E in EGNOS. At least Shapps has sheepishly admitted that this was possibly a mistake although they are hoping to bury this next bit of bad news in all the background noise. Amazingly, the DfT have admitted that they were only on the edge of the room for this part of the negotiation. Clearly, out omnipotent Mr Frost knew best and we will of course be launching our own world beating rocket star satellite system thingy imminently.
It is staggering that the UK negotiators who"held all the cards" and were going to get an even better deal than the one we already have, with no downsides, have managed to negotiate the best possible deal for Irish pilots and the very worst for UK pilots. Good luck to our Irish colleagues and things are already starting to fall into place in MANbase. its no wonder Rees-Mogg moved part of his hedge fund to Dublin. I knows its going to be boom time over there.
In the midst of all this stupidity, the Government has from June also managed to cancel its subscription to the EGNOS Safety Of Life part of the Galileo project taking away a great opportunity to enhance safety in the UK by upgrading approaches at smaller airports and improving helicopter operations for minimal cost. All because there is an E in EGNOS. At least Shapps has sheepishly admitted that this was possibly a mistake although they are hoping to bury this next bit of bad news in all the background noise. Amazingly, the DfT have admitted that they were only on the edge of the room for this part of the negotiation. Clearly, out omnipotent Mr Frost knew best and we will of course be launching our own world beating rocket star satellite system thingy imminently.
