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Reciprocal agreement with the EU on the transfer of UK CAA Flight Crew Licences.

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Reciprocal agreement with the EU on the transfer of UK CAA Flight Crew Licences.

Old 30th Mar 2021, 18:54
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
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I signed this petition and shared it across all my contacts.

Please don't turn this into a stupid political discussion guys. We are pilots here, we just want to fly...
Most people affected by Brexit regarding their FCL licenses either weren't eligible to vote in the Brext referendum (because they weren't British nationals), or voted to stay in the EU. It's a bit daft to tell UK LICENCED pilots (not necessarilly British nationals, many of them in fact EU nationals like myself) to just shut up and accept the consequences of something that was never even within the realms of their control...
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 19:19
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Dumbest thing was to ask the general population whether it was better to leave the EU or not as 90% of the voters did not have an damned clue about the political and economical consequences of voting yes or no. Those are the results. Anyway, UK/EASA should have mutual recognitions... anything different is just ridiculous.
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 19:36
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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could not agree more
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 20:00
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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As pilots theres little that truly separates our skills and knowledge other than bureaucrats. Let’s stick together.
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 20:35
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Let's first sort all EU jobless pilots, then we'll discuss that. Now the UK is a third country, and the UK voted for it.
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 20:49
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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But I am an EU jobless pilot. Just happen to have a UK licence. Now what?
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 21:05
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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olster
It’s really good you were welcomed by the U.K. airlines as I guess you are European.
I am a U.K. national And worked for a European airline and let’s just say your experience differs from mine slightly!
Things got even worse for everyone on this side of the pond when the EU got involved years ago
Saying that we are all pilots examined and trained to a standard and should stick together, hell we all know once politicians get involved things only change for the worse.
Why fight amongst ourselves?
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 21:20
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Banana Joe

You sound like you'd be a great day out to fly with Point was made quite well above, we all want to fly and have been hindered by politics. A license from a first world country is a valid license. For the record I have an EASA license, working for an EU airline and living in the EU. I have no skin in this game, but what's good for one, is good for all. Banana Joe, you don't know where your next job may be.
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 21:20
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Banana Joe

True, but keep in mind that a lot of those voters would have had troubles in deciding whether to go for a double cheeseburger or a fish burger... let alone deciding the future of their Country. Those are the limits of democracy.
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 21:58
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Although I have no problem with granting all pre brexit atpl holders a blanket exemption to be issued with an easa atpl. The problem is that should easa give uk caa atpl holders, easa atpls going forward. The uk caa could and would be able to relax standards. At the end of the day the uk isn't part of easa anymore and anything could happen with regards to atpl issuing requirements. In my opinion it would be reckless for easa to give such a blanket exemption without first entering some sort of negotiations (witch in all fairness will happen at some point in the coming years).
Then there is of course the point of fairness, as has been mentioned previously. There are hoards of other pilots world wide, with third country licenses who would undoubtedly also like to have the opportunity to be issued with an easa atpl. How fair would it be to only grant this to uk licence holders and not of say australia or argentina.
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 22:08
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Look, it's very easy: UK licence holders had an EASA licence up and until the end of 2020. On 1 January 2021, their previously held EASA licence was retroactively removed and taken away from them. Do you call that fair?

It has absolutely nothing to do with Australia or Argentina. UK pilots were and continue to be trained to exactly the same Part-FCL requirements as the rest of EASA pilots. Most importantly, UK "WAS" EASA. Australia or Argentina have never been EASA countries. There is no precedent for an EASA Member State leaving and becoming a Third Country so no other case is comparable to this one.
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 23:18
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Central Scrutinizer View Post
But I am an EU jobless pilot. Just happen to have a UK licence. Now what?
As I've said in a previous post, for current EU citizens that held a EASA license before 31 January 2021 I would support a facilitated pathway. In an ideal world, that means just a couple of papers to sign to have your license with ratings issued.
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 00:27
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Central Scrutinizer View Post
Look, it's very easy: UK licence holders had an EASA licence up and until the end of 2020. On 1 January 2021, their previously held EASA licence was retroactively removed and taken away from them. Do you call that fair?
It might sound callous, but the question of fairness is actually beside the point. It was a clear, and well known, consequence of leaving a regulatory area and moving into another. EASA published its first guideline about that in March 2018, there was enough time to figure out what to do. I'm sure there was a possibility for an reciprocal agreement on licenses, same as there was a clear cut offer for visa free touring for artists. But, unlike artists, flight crew licenses have a very direct and immediate safety implication. And it is up to the issuing authority to police that. Which means invalidating licenses, removing privileges or other means of curtailing license privileges in case of problems on the line (incidents, accidents), medical issues and so on. Within the EASA area the rules are developed and published by EASA, but the enforcement is up to local authorities, both under the supervision of a legal system that at its final arbiter has the ECJ and as its basic rulemaking authority the European Parliament. And EASA has direct authority over local authorities.

With the hard brexit for services, which was the clear cut aim of the current UK administration, the CAA was no longer under the authority of EASA, the European Parliament and the ECJ. Therefore, there was no way to be sure that proper policing of licenses takes place any longer, especially with the more and more wide usage of Henry VII powers by UK ministers including junior ministers in all matters previously regulated by the EU.

There still seems to be a way to regain your EASA license without having to do all the tests again, and for anyone out of work or on furlough, now is the time to get cracking and jump on that possibility. Any possible agreement between the EU and the UK (and of course agreements always remain possible), will most likely take a few years if it is possible with the current UK administration to begin with. For EU citizens there is of course always the possibility to contact your local MEP, work through the EU commissions citizens participation project and put pressure on your local government which, after all, has a seat in the council.
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 06:18
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Denti

There is a way to ensure anything pre 1st jan 2021 is properly policed and that is because it was then under the jurisdiction of EASA. Failing to recognise that previous standards were met for the sake of gaining new licences in MS is absolute codswallop and helps nobody.

Last edited by Contact Approach; 31st Mar 2021 at 07:08.
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 08:24
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Contact Approach, you knew what was coming. It was clear and both EASA and the UK CAA advised the current UK administration. Why didn't you convert your license?

My employer had to ground and terminate 6 contractors on the long haul fleet because they were confident common sense would prevail. It won't. It never will with the current muppets in the administrations on both sides of the channel.

Last edited by Banana Joe; 31st Mar 2021 at 08:49.
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 08:26
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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It’s not about me. I hold an EASA licence.

I’m able to think beyond myself and for the sake of my kids or anyone else who has saved up and paid thousands of GBP/Euros to complete EASA training courses to be met by a global pandemic, a political s**t storm and then to lose previously gained credentials needlessly so. How is this situation fair on them? Honouring pre-Brexit EASA training / licences would not have been an unreasonable nor difficult thing to have implemented, it’s how it worked when JAR became EASA.

Those of the opinion this situation can be justified simply care for themselves and sod the rest. Pathetic. Frankly that mentality isn’t welcome on my flightdeck irrespective of where your homeland lies.

We share a common goal and interest and that is simply to do our job. Last I checked the UK lot still knew how to fly aeroplanes pretty well before and after Brexit.

Nothing has truly changed from a pilots perspective.

Last edited by Contact Approach; 31st Mar 2021 at 14:23.
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 08:32
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Contact Approach View Post
There is a way to ensure anything pre 1st jan 2021 is properly policed and that is because it was then under the jurisdiction of EASA. Failing to recognise that previous standards were met for the sake of gaining new licences in MS is absolute codswallop and helps nobody.
Indeed there was, the SOLI transfer was possible without any problems until december 31st for a reason, and actually advised by both the UK CAA and EASA. When i had my last UK bound simulator event in december the trainer told me that his company had switched a fair share of their UK based trainer to a non-UK EASA license to be able to sign EASA licenses in the new year, apparently companies did know that as well as many individual pilots, there are numerous thread over the last few years about SOLI transfers on this very forum for a reason.

And of course, since January 1st there has been no official partnership between CAA and EASA, therefore EASA and EASA national authorities do not have any knowledge whatever did happen to license holders and their previously held privileges, after all, it has been nearly four months now.
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 08:33
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Contact Approach View Post
It’s not about me. I hold an Irish EASA licence. I’m able to think beyond myself and for the sake of my kids, how is this situation fair on them? Those of the opinion this situation can be justified simply care for themselves and sod the rest. Pathetic. Frankly that mentality isn’t welcome on my flightdeck where ever your homeland lies.
I'd love to have a FAA ticket and have the ability to work in the US, but such is life...

I am sure an EASA license will be the least of their problems for your kids. For current professionals instead, they are supposed to think and act accordingly with the information available and not hope for "common sense to prevail".
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 08:38
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Denti View Post
For EU citizens there is of course always the possibility to contact your local MEP, work through the EU commissions citizens participation project and put pressure on your local government which, after all, has a seat in the council.
Except for EU citizens who happen to be living in the UK.
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 08:48
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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And anyway it seems that if the EASA ATPL exams were passed in under the authority of a current EASA country, one doesn't need to resit 14 ATPL exams. Look into that.
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