London to Hong Kong...
Join Date: May 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 103
And that’s possible in the current environment is it?
Would you please elaborate? I’m sure the other contributors to this thread, including myself, would love to see your trip pattern?
I’m paid to fly aircraft from A to B and am paid well to do so by my company but if an expert can tell us what we’re doing wrong then I’ll pass on your comments.
Thank you!
Would you please elaborate? I’m sure the other contributors to this thread, including myself, would love to see your trip pattern?
I’m paid to fly aircraft from A to B and am paid well to do so by my company but if an expert can tell us what we’re doing wrong then I’ll pass on your comments.
Thank you!
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Cyprus
Posts: 36
srjumbo : you are coming across very ruffled. Even suggesting that other contributors suggesting pure safety must be candidates who failed to get into your prized company .
Providing your highly valued , modern, rest facilities on board, in which you, and others (you claim) have no difficulty in being sufficiently rested within, enough to climb straight on to the FD and operate a similar length of return journey requires, as an earlier poster suggested, good, professional management of the rest period. Not always possible. Any of your much admired (by you) colleagues ever pitched up to the FD and said ;" Sorry chaps, could not rest at all. I am unsafe to operate back ". Of course not. Quite a few would not dare to compromise other peoples jobs, including their own, ignoring safety all together.
Under normal FTL's, where rest is provided before operating, as has been said earlier, Regulatory Authorities can only rely on professional attitudes to managing the period. Bottle to throttle was far from rare you know. Other instances of just not getting adequate rest for a whole range of reasons, rarely stopped some folk from pitching up for duty.
I recall an incident, widely reported in the ptress, of a N Atlantic Skipper, under personal issues, was unable to rest before operating. He briefed the entire crew of his intention to do the Take Off but would quickly repair to a super "Captains" rest bunk-cabin ( you would have loved it srjumbo) where he would remain until about an hour or so before arrival. CC didn't have the b..ls to decline complicity, operated with him but reported him back home. Cost him some years back in the RHS.
However, that incident appears a lot safer than what you hold, currently dear.
I too, remain very disturbed by the practice. A more safer practice , as given by others, over and over again , may well be so costly as to endanger the life of the airline, but, good grief. So be it. Old hat, I know, but a smoking heap at the end of the runway is an even quicker way to wind up a highly valued job, at any cost.
Providing your highly valued , modern, rest facilities on board, in which you, and others (you claim) have no difficulty in being sufficiently rested within, enough to climb straight on to the FD and operate a similar length of return journey requires, as an earlier poster suggested, good, professional management of the rest period. Not always possible. Any of your much admired (by you) colleagues ever pitched up to the FD and said ;" Sorry chaps, could not rest at all. I am unsafe to operate back ". Of course not. Quite a few would not dare to compromise other peoples jobs, including their own, ignoring safety all together.
Under normal FTL's, where rest is provided before operating, as has been said earlier, Regulatory Authorities can only rely on professional attitudes to managing the period. Bottle to throttle was far from rare you know. Other instances of just not getting adequate rest for a whole range of reasons, rarely stopped some folk from pitching up for duty.
I recall an incident, widely reported in the ptress, of a N Atlantic Skipper, under personal issues, was unable to rest before operating. He briefed the entire crew of his intention to do the Take Off but would quickly repair to a super "Captains" rest bunk-cabin ( you would have loved it srjumbo) where he would remain until about an hour or so before arrival. CC didn't have the b..ls to decline complicity, operated with him but reported him back home. Cost him some years back in the RHS.
However, that incident appears a lot safer than what you hold, currently dear.
I too, remain very disturbed by the practice. A more safer practice , as given by others, over and over again , may well be so costly as to endanger the life of the airline, but, good grief. So be it. Old hat, I know, but a smoking heap at the end of the runway is an even quicker way to wind up a highly valued job, at any cost.
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Bonvoy Marriott
Posts: 93
Originally Posted by srjumbo747
And that’s possible in the current environment is it?
Would you please elaborate? !
Would you please elaborate? !
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Tring, UK
Posts: 1,537
I’ve done a fair few eFTL trips, as they’re called, and I agree with other posters (who have actually operated them) in that I find them much less tiring than normal 2-crew ops. For me, the problem has been getting so much rest during the duty period that I don’t want to go to bed when I get home!
We have 2 protected days before and 3 after, which is complete overkill IMO but welcome. I can’t see a) the various CAAs allowing it post-pandemic and b) any airline wanting to roster 2x (or more) the number of crew because it’s going to cost a lot more.
Some years ago I got stuck in a rut of 8-12 transatlantic crossings a month, mostly 2-pilot and it was getting me down. But quite legal and approved. Those making FTL regulations, certainly in Europe, have become completely divorced from reality (and science) - like destination time zones have anything to do with fatigue.
We have 2 protected days before and 3 after, which is complete overkill IMO but welcome. I can’t see a) the various CAAs allowing it post-pandemic and b) any airline wanting to roster 2x (or more) the number of crew because it’s going to cost a lot more.
Some years ago I got stuck in a rut of 8-12 transatlantic crossings a month, mostly 2-pilot and it was getting me down. But quite legal and approved. Those making FTL regulations, certainly in Europe, have become completely divorced from reality (and science) - like destination time zones have anything to do with fatigue.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Within 3 hours of a suitable alternate
Posts: 67
As another who has done a number of these trips it isn't a problem, all crew who operate one of these trips have to file a fatigue report, the CAA would pull the dispensation if there was a problem.
I certainly find it far less tiring than doing a standard 2 man trans-Atlantic and rest assured the cost is far greater than a standard operation so do you guys really think the airlines will want to continue doing them when there are other alternatives.
I certainly find it far less tiring than doing a standard 2 man trans-Atlantic and rest assured the cost is far greater than a standard operation so do you guys really think the airlines will want to continue doing them when there are other alternatives.
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Doctor's waiting room
Posts: 685
Having stayed many times during the pandemic at the one and only designated hotel for foreign aircrew in BKK, I would rather avoid slipping there on a Chinese or Vietnamese turn. It's a miserable existence and the food is atrocious!!!
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 331
He's right!
eFTL trips are much less tiring than 2 crew trips OR the dreaded LR one nighter in a sh1t hotel like we're currently doing to PVG and others.
Equally the proposal to slip and shuttle might easily prove very tiring and much more risky/inefficient.
Under normal "bidding" circumstances I have no doubt these would be THE most popular trips. eg 25 hours for 2 days work.
eFTL trips are much less tiring than 2 crew trips OR the dreaded LR one nighter in a sh1t hotel like we're currently doing to PVG and others.
Equally the proposal to slip and shuttle might easily prove very tiring and much more risky/inefficient.
Under normal "bidding" circumstances I have no doubt these would be THE most popular trips. eg 25 hours for 2 days work.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 331
Silent Running
I don't believe these type of limitations have been tried or tested before - how many have you done?
I've done 27 years LH and have done 11 of these trips. My judgement is that they're less tiring and hence safer, than most LH trips.
The longer term issue is the possibility that the company and/or the authorities would discount bunk time which would be a disaster.
I don't believe these type of limitations have been tried or tested before - how many have you done?
I've done 27 years LH and have done 11 of these trips. My judgement is that they're less tiring and hence safer, than most LH trips.
The longer term issue is the possibility that the company and/or the authorities would discount bunk time which would be a disaster.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 331
Gordomac
Don't be disturbed old chap. Trust that people are more professional and knowledgable these days... no "bottle to throttle" or "ignoring safety all together" issues like back in the old days when you were flying.
Don't be disturbed old chap. Trust that people are more professional and knowledgable these days... no "bottle to throttle" or "ignoring safety all together" issues like back in the old days when you were flying.
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Bonvoy Marriott
Posts: 93
It might be possible that such a duty is less fatiguing than duty XYZ and that it is preferable over staying in PVG. My airline choose not to have any crew layover in China (inc. HKG) due to all the present Covid restrictions and regulations implemented. Imagine being tested positive upon arrival
However: most national authorities choose not to allow these extended duties resulting in crew slips in Russia or the Far East. (I am sorry to hear the pizza is below standard in BKK Emma.) Has any research been done? I also believe it is a very dangerous precedent if national authorities decide to ignore clearly defined limitations. What will be next? Additionally, one could also say it is unfair competition.
if your standard crew Atlantic crossings are too fatiguing than you should all file fatigue reports and negotiate a different crewing solution. FTL’s are a limit, not a target.
However: most national authorities choose not to allow these extended duties resulting in crew slips in Russia or the Far East. (I am sorry to hear the pizza is below standard in BKK Emma.) Has any research been done? I also believe it is a very dangerous precedent if national authorities decide to ignore clearly defined limitations. What will be next? Additionally, one could also say it is unfair competition.
if your standard crew Atlantic crossings are too fatiguing than you should all file fatigue reports and negotiate a different crewing solution. FTL’s are a limit, not a target.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 331
Research into the pizza in BKK?
Thing is, we're in uncharted territory. Substandard hotac, slips in unapproved locations, covid tests etc. but I don't believe limitations are being ignored or operated without authority approval!
You must realise that tiredness/fatigue is a variable and personal experience. 5/6 Atlantics per month are universally considered very tiring, but we still do them.
I'm quite sure eFTL rotations will stop as they're not the cost efficient option. Point being that they are, actually, much less tiring than I thought they'd be, and I'd rather do them than shuttle and expose myself to potentially more risk and fatigue.
Thing is, we're in uncharted territory. Substandard hotac, slips in unapproved locations, covid tests etc. but I don't believe limitations are being ignored or operated without authority approval!
You must realise that tiredness/fatigue is a variable and personal experience. 5/6 Atlantics per month are universally considered very tiring, but we still do them.
I'm quite sure eFTL rotations will stop as they're not the cost efficient option. Point being that they are, actually, much less tiring than I thought they'd be, and I'd rather do them than shuttle and expose myself to potentially more risk and fatigue.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Tring, UK
Posts: 1,537
Diurnal mammals forced to stay awake during the night eventually get fatigued. Who’d have thought it?
My experience of 20+ years of mixed LH and ULH has been that ULH is far less of a problem than repetitive 2-crew night flights (or even day ones). YMMV.
My experience of 20+ years of mixed LH and ULH has been that ULH is far less of a problem than repetitive 2-crew night flights (or even day ones). YMMV.
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Cyprus
Posts: 36
Blu riband : encouraging that you are all so much more professional and knowledgeable than 'back in my day' Never did bottle to throttle but c'mon mate, throttle to bottle in the back of the crew van, to the hotel was pure joy. Damn. Miss it.
