Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Terms and Endearment
Reload this Page >

London to Hong Kong...

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

London to Hong Kong...

Old 17th Mar 2021, 22:06
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Lo cat ion
Posts: 33
VS238 operates to HKG with the return crew in the back . Special dispensation as mentioned above . Crews are knackered, but carry on for the good of their jobs and careers. One skipper after 23 hours of duty, allegedly left the staff carpark at Heathrow and promptly drove the wrong way down the west ramp rather than joining bath rd. A little mishap with oncoming traffic was thankfully all that ensued. But I think theres a lesson to be learned here.
captain8 is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2021, 22:15
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Bonvoy Marriott
Posts: 93
I am sorry Wiggy but what you say is, imho, ABSOLUTE RUBBISH! Adequate rest is a quiet hotel room with proper curtains and a good bed. I’m on the freighter and we have better rest facilities than on most, if not all pax aircraft but to do a duty like that can only be accepted in war time.

I am willing to be flexible and I am go minded but here we are talking about a 24 hour stint in a noisy pressurized tube with dry air. This could never be called “adequate rest facility”. If you accept it now, it is very hard to refuse it in the future..,.
SaulGoodman is online now  
Old 17th Mar 2021, 23:13
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 103
Some might argue that this is exactly a war we are in and are currently fighting.

It must be nice to be on your high hill of righteousness looking down and judging what others are doing. Just as well you don’t work for any of the airlines in question and if you did you’d obviously put your fellow pilots and management right and give them a good bit of your experience and advice.

I’ve been doing this job for many years and the perfect hotel room with proper curtains and a good bed isn’t that easy to find, Been to many Chinese hotels recently? Been through Chinese immigration recently? It can take up to SIX hours from landing to get to your crappy quarantine hotel. Not the company’s choice but the government’s.

Have a look at some of the comments from people who are actually doing the job. It may not be as bad as you think.

Oh, and the guy who drove his car the wrong way? First I’ve heard of it but I do know that the CAA insist that a hotel room is available for every crew member at the end of every flight.
srjumbo747 is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2021, 07:42
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: in denial
Posts: 256
We're doing it. HKG-LHR, HKG-BRU, HKG-FRA, HKG-AMS, HKG-AKL turns. Approval for 30 HR FDP, with certain conditions to be met. Then a 2-4 hr sit on a plastic chair at Hong Kong Airport awaiting COVID test result. Fun.

Seeking approval for HKG-AUS turnaround flights too.

All due to the unworkable quarantine requirements imposed on us by our local authorities. Certainly not the company's wish for us to work like this.
Veruka Salt is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2021, 07:51
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Utopia
Posts: 646
A couple of heavy metal crashes following pilot fatigue or pilots reporting unfit for duty (as required by law) with stranded passengers and unprepared quarantine of an entire crew, will quickly put that wet dream to sleep, so to speak.
Klimax is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2021, 07:53
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Utopia
Posts: 646
The Hong Kong muppet "government" is surely doing what it can to make the circus entertaining for everybody involved. Just another Chinese city.
Klimax is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2021, 07:59
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 6,005
SaulGoodman

As to your first comment, that's your opinion..I never had problem getting more than adequate sleep first break ex-LHR on a night sector, I appreciate others don't.

With regard to hotel rooms etc, etc, yes in an ideal world on the ground adequate rest would be taken on arrival in the sort of facility you describe. If you'd read the previous comments, especially by srjumbo747 and Veruka Salt you'll see that we're no longer dealing with ideals and actually having access to that sort of facility, and the hoops required to get to them, is the problem in some parts of the world.
wiggy is online now  
Old 18th Mar 2021, 09:16
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 610
srjumbo ; I never really regarded looking carefully at safety meant I was on a high hill of righteousness. What is correct is that conditions have been 'tweeked' under worldwide austere circumstances. I still regard it to be unsafe. I hope it will end when the circumstances end, I fear it will not. Some airline managements are notorious for tweeking the rules and getting away with it then becomes the new normal.

Regulatory Authorities differ across the world but having lost my job in the UK, I nearly signed up with an Italian lot. I heard that a regular practice was to fly MXP to Mombassa , at night.Then, into a spare seat in the cabin to DH back. The "adequacy" of the "rest" ride home was not met. While Capt & FO were often in Business (there was no first), the return operating cabin crew were permitted a short rest ( no idea why as they had been on the beaches of Mombassa for two days and a super hotac room before ops)
Mate of mine was turfed out of his BC seat on the return, having operated out in order to give a CC member her 2 hour break !

In any case, Italian CAA regarded the return trip as "adequate' rest and only 12 hours minrest on return to MXP was authorised.

I asked, at interview if it was regular practice and, in theory, one could ops MXP- Africa,DH back, get 12 hours rest and ops back to Mombassa on the same deal. "Yes" was the answer (in Italian). No was my response (in English) to the job offer. Stayed on the dole for a bit. Slept in my own bed.

Last edited by Landflap; 18th Mar 2021 at 09:18. Reason: Typo
Landflap is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2021, 09:31
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Bonvoy Marriott
Posts: 93
come on Wiggy. I’m as well a good “bunk-sleeper”. But that is not the point. FTL’s are in place for a reason. London is not a warzone. Ridiculous measurements set in place by HK authorities should never compromise safety.
SaulGoodman is online now  
Old 18th Mar 2021, 10:50
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 52
One thing I havenít seen mentioned is that in my outfit these duties (at least for tech crew) are done purely by volunteers. As it happens, it appears there are sufficient volunteers to crew the operation - however whether the arrangement would change if there were to be a shortage is uncertain. I am also reliably informed that - given a like for like schedule - the crewing requirement for these duties and their total footprint is greater than that of our more normal operation with crew slips.

i canít comment on the feasibility or otherwise of these trips as I havenít done one, despite being on the list. No would be inclined of give it a go though. The same cannot be said for a 24 hour slip in PVG, which by all accounts is a more draining duty for a variety of realms, some hinted at above, and is assignable to al, not just volunteers. Thatís is a duty I have already declined, and would do so again.
Smokey Lomcevak is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2021, 12:20
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Spain
Age: 41
Posts: 42
SaulGoodman

What’s the alternative though? There isnt one. Unless the routes get cancelled, and more pilots get made redundant as a result.
Chief Willy is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2021, 14:20
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Bonvoy Marriott
Posts: 93
the alternative is to route the crews through HKG. Eg: LHR-HKG-KUL or to go into quarantine after each rotation. I know. Very far from ideal but these duties are dangerous imho. What would the insurance company decide in case there is a incident / accident and the crew is on a 24+ hr duty?
SaulGoodman is online now  
Old 19th Mar 2021, 07:41
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: London
Posts: 49
Iím with Saul on this.

itís alright (until isnít) and then who is going to be responsible at the subsequent enquiry?

After a long career of long haul flying observing the effects of cumulative fatigue it is irresponsible to believe that the new COVID 19 situation justifies abrogation of long established FTLís.

There are other solutions to the problem.
Silent Running is offline  
Old 19th Mar 2021, 07:47
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Bonvoy Marriott
Posts: 93
Chief Willy

The rotation is LHR-HKG-LHR. Why not LHR-HKG-BKK-LHR with a crew change in BKK. Or somewhere in Russia? Many airlines do that.
SaulGoodman is online now  
Old 19th Mar 2021, 08:36
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 610
Saul, you are right. Of course. But often, the logical solution is not cost effective. Company I worked for re-routed and changed rotations during the Gulf War in the nineties which signed the death knell (or 'sounded-?) for an already struggling outfit.. Tough call for crewing and management .
Landflap is offline  
Old 19th Mar 2021, 21:30
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Spain
Age: 41
Posts: 42
SaulGoodman

Because that would add considerable extra costs to a marginal operation.
Chief Willy is offline  
Old 19th Mar 2021, 21:37
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Bonvoy Marriott
Posts: 93
So safety is only our main priority if we can afford it?

FTL’s are hard fought MAXIMUM LIMITATIONS. Cost / profitability should never be a reason to disregards FTL’s whatsoever. If you can’t make it work, don’t operate the route! Simple.

KLM, LH, AF all seem to do it With a stop somewhere. So your reasoning is flawed.
SaulGoodman is online now  
Old 20th Mar 2021, 16:52
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Spain
Age: 41
Posts: 42
Have you actually done one of these trips? I think its only fair to comment on the fatigue aspect if you have. I found them to be less fatiguing than a 2 crew night flight home across the pond. Iíd massively prefer to do one of these than stay in HKG/China at present.
Chief Willy is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2021, 16:56
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 103
Well said!
Methinks one of the contributors to this debate might just be questioning these trips with a tad of envy.
Might he/she be a former employee or one who has tried to get in but failed?
I have only heard positive things about how these trips have been conducted.
We’ve got to make the best out of a bad situation.

Last edited by srjumbo747; 20th Mar 2021 at 17:25.
srjumbo747 is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2021, 20:05
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Bonvoy Marriott
Posts: 93
none of the above. Job security / profitability should never be an excuse to extend FTL’s beyond a defined treshold.
I can understand why crew accept these trips. Nevertheless, a few years ago we are fighting tooth and nail against EASA FTL’s and now we are willing to accept duties even longer. CAA’s should not exempt airlines in these circumstances.
SaulGoodman is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.