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What for British pilots, after Brexit? (v2)

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What for British pilots, after Brexit? (v2)

Old 3rd Jul 2020, 10:49
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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The welfare arrangements have always largely been a prerogative of member states. And yes, Brexit has nothing to do with where one can work, except from January 2021 this will no longer include the nearest geographic entity.
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Old 3rd Jul 2020, 12:50
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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I am a little surprised by the anti-Brexit sentiment on here but not at all surprised at the accompanying specious arguments, glib comments and general desire to see it fail. I know it's hard for many of you to believe, or perhaps you just don't want to, but many people, me included, put their principles ahead of narrow self interests.

If you hadn't noticed half the EZY German operation is going as well so please don't conflate the fallout of C19 with Brexit.

If anybody would like to know what actual 'Brexiteers' think, not what the BBC thinks they think, I'd be happy to discuss via PM. I spoke to hundreds of them during the Vote Leave campaign so I have a good idea.
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Old 3rd Jul 2020, 13:19
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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The OP had asked about new opportunities post Brexit. It has been kindly pointed out that whilst there may be some new opportunities in the UK market, the opportunity to compete with others for pilot jobs on the same playing level field in the nearest aviation market (7x the size) have been all but removed.

Enjoy the UKIP Conservative government together with herd immunity
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Old 3rd Jul 2020, 14:55
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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And exactly what pilot job opportunities do you think there are going to be in " the nearest aviation market (7x the size)" for the next three to four years? Even within that 'place of peace and harmony', don't expect playing fields to be level: Whatever the rules are, some of those 27 will be as protectionist as possible against those from the 'other 26'.

However, for Brits in the British market it will now become a totally level playing field where all incomers wanting to 'compete' will require a visa first.
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Old 3rd Jul 2020, 16:20
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Their market (especially the EU 10) will continue to grow (e.g. see Wizz airbus order), so there will be opportunities in the coming years. Also, it does not look like that their governments are preparing to shoot themselves in the foot to resolve the issues within the political party arising due to the FPTP election system.

Unfortunately, there is no scope to grow the local market as overseas holidays and weekend trips are becoming very very expensive for the majority of the population (hint: see Forex).

Could you please clarify what protectionist actions against each other are the 27 countries (plus EEA) are contemplating at the moment?
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Old 3rd Jul 2020, 16:57
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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Could you please clarify what protectionist actions against each other are the 27 countries (plus EEA) are contemplating at the moment?
you have to able to speak the local language
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Old 4th Jul 2020, 10:04
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Tick Tock Man View Post
but many people, me included, put their principles ahead of narrow self interests.
I don't often write on here, but when I see utter rubbish like this, it needs correcting. The only people thinking about their narrow self interests are those voting Brexit, as you can see in this board, with people saying 'I don't want to work in Europe anyway'. Great for you, but think of the millions of people who have just lost the ability to work in Europe, or to obtain a free university education in other countries in Europe. But you don't give a crap about that as you're thinking of your own narrow self interest.

Then we go on about British jobs for British people. So you're saying that you think a company should have to choose from a less competitive, more limited set of people, just because those people happened to win the lottery of being pumped out of a vagina that belonged to someone with a passport from that country. How is that a more logical way of choosing your workforce than by stuff like work ethic, education or understanding?
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Old 4th Jul 2020, 14:24
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BobsCousin View Post
... or to obtain a free university education in other countries in Europe. But you don't give a crap about that as you're thinking of your own narrow self interest.
...
Nothing is ever 'free'. Someone has to pay for it. The taxpayers in the 'host' country will be paying for that 'free university education'. Don't you think that it's an appalling attitude to have to scrounge off other hard-working taxpayers in other countries? Or is it that
you don't give a crap about that as you're thinking of your own narrow self interest.
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Old 4th Jul 2020, 14:31
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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Smile

Originally Posted by SaulGoodman View Post
you have to able to speak the local language
And that is where the 'playing field' has never been level for the British as everyone speaks their 'local language' as it is the 'lingua franca'. You have demonstrated that with the language that you used in that post! 😊
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Old 4th Jul 2020, 15:14
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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BobsCousin, we're talking about aviation and piloting jobs specifically. Not any old profession in the UK. I have relatives who own businesses that simply could not function if it wasn't for skilled and unskilled European labour. I'm the first to agree that the AVERAGE Brit's work ethic doesn't compare with that of an Eastern European. I think we all get that.

But EZ's and FR's UK operations (in particular) have benefited enormously from European labour. FR's shameless salary offer only really attracts young Eastern European girls for whom €800 is plenty. That is exploitation at the detriment of British jobs and British society. Is it not? I mean you want to do business in one place, but are more than happy to hire the cheapest resource from another place and socially dump in the process? This is a legitimate problem and argument presented by many Brexit voters across a lot of industries and it's not all boll*cks.

Then there's being locked out of jobs in your home country just because the god damn employment pool is so big. I speak as someone who could not even get an interview with a UK airline for 7 years after qualifying (in 2008). I had no interest in gallivanting around Asia looking for a job but I was forced to. Which is why the OP's original arguments concerning language were spot on.... During this time, I was in competition with Europeans who could easily find work with UK airlines, whereas most Brits could not find work with European airlines (note I said European airlines and not airlines with European bases). Yeah boohoo and life's not fair, again we get that. But this creates a legitimate resentment, one that is then used to form an opinion when casting a vote.
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Old 4th Jul 2020, 15:32
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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The €800 monthly salary you are mention may have been the case about 10-15 years ago, but not anymore. The average salaries in EU10 are much higher now, including of FR cabin crew.
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Old 4th Jul 2020, 21:14
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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MonarchOrBust

If it took you seven years to get a single interview with a single company then there might be slightly more to it. Just an observation. Were the Europeans given the jobs over you because they were European (would make no sense), or because they were better perhaps? The idea that they had it easier than you in the U.K. is just not true I’m afraid, however hard it may be to admit.

A U.K. airline doesn’t hire Europeans because they are cheaper, everyone’s paid the same. They’ll hire them because on that day they were better than the U.K. candidate, and the reverse would be true if the U.K. candidates were better than the Europeans.
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Old 4th Jul 2020, 21:35
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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VariablePitchP,

Youíve beaten me to it, spot on. I once was told by a captain that I took his sonís job, which was quite amusing. His son got the assessment because daddy bought him a pass through Oxford Aviation, and as a cadet they were given priority.

Yet, the foreigner here spent 3 weeks working on the application, writing a CV and cover letter specific to the airline, and then another month working on the SWOT analysis for the assessment, sim check etc.
His son was asking what the questions were as candidates had their interviews first, what the share price was or who was the COO. I knew the companyís balanceís sheet back to front by then...

I told him that and it was one of the most awkward flights home ever, as it was easier to say that foreigner took the job rather than admit that his son was ill prepared, he was complacent and arrogant about it all.

It is also the attitude I see on brexiteers, itís always everyoneís fault but your own. Took you seven years when the industry was booming? If only that energy used to find excuses i.e. language barriers etc, was used to self assess and improve...

Itís really boring now and nobody is buying anymore.
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Old 5th Jul 2020, 01:39
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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Sure everyone is paid the same but with a bigger pool of applicants comes oversupply.
A continuous influx of labour drives up the cost of living and drives down wages.
People who come from a lower wage country to a higher wage country are much less likely to complain and just take what they are given. Most of the European workers unions are aware of this and that is why many European airlines expect you to speak the language of where they are based. Not all but many.

Someone accusing you of taking someone job else's job is a bit rich though.
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Old 5th Jul 2020, 06:39
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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VariableP and Ralph

Hold your horses. That's not what Monarch said. He specifically mentioned the fact that his chances were diminished simply because the hiring pool was made bigger whereas the hiring pool at say Air France or Lufthansa was not automatically bigger despite 'freedom of movement'. This is due to certain (ahhm) requirements concering (ahhm) ones tongue.
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Old 5th Jul 2020, 08:10
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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And yet a few people made an effort, learned a few languages and got hired. Not to mention, quite a few national airlines dropped their local language requirements, including bigger legacy carriers like KLM and most of the LH group. So yes, the hiring pool is bigger, so is the job pool as well.

Learning languages does not seem to be that hard, after all every single european pilot managed to do that to be able to get hired anywhere, even at home.
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Old 5th Jul 2020, 10:41
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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TAP Air Portugal dropped the language requirement and had a large hiring spree in 2018/2019. KLM, Easyjet Swiss, Eurowings and other LH(as mentioned above), Volotea, Aegean, SAS, Norwegian, Wizzair, Air Dolomiti, Luxair, TUIfly, Transavia....all required English only. The corporate market also requires English only and many british pilots are making a serious living in the EU, as it turns out the salaries on the G550, Global Vision etc are quite high.

Trying to convince us or yourself? The opportunities were there, so if Brexiteers were too comfortable or lazy, donít blame others. I have a close friend who came to the UK and worked at Burger King and studied for two years in order to improve his english. Kept his licenses current and now he flies for BA on short-haul. I guess they were impressed about his resilience and determination, couple that with the fact he is a good pilot. People like that deserve opportunities, irrespective of where they came from.

I struggle to accept your arguments as valid, I think itís whining and excuses but youíre entitled to your opinion.
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Old 5th Jul 2020, 12:15
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Not SAS though.
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Old 5th Jul 2020, 13:36
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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Yes they were, through CAE, had one of the job cards recruiters send us all the time.
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Old 5th Jul 2020, 14:50
  #100 (permalink)  
 
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Ralph737.

Do you remember the UK not being in the EU? It did just fine.
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