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What for British pilots, after Brexit? (v2)

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What for British pilots, after Brexit? (v2)

Old 23rd Jun 2020, 07:41
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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This topic is becoming rambling beyond belief! To cut to the chase, the only empirical data we have is that there are just under three general workers of continental nationality working in the uk, for every one Brit doing the opposite. BUT, Brexit will NOT require them to relinquish their UK jobs and residence, (which I'm pleased about because in my experience, the European copilots ARE generally tertiary educated, and/or have more interesting backgrounds, than UK equivalents who seem to mostly come direct from high school, so I would greatly miss them if they left).
Any trickle of vacated UK jobs will be more than cancelled out by a deteriorating market for UK aviation, coupled with a woefully incompetent and disinterested, inward looking Brexit government, which for good measure has welcomed C19 in through the front door, then proceeded to so suspend democracy and civil liberty, and for so long, that much of the impoverished and timid population don't want to travel anyway, or even leave their houses, or teach their children in schools etc etc. Truly a depressing shadow of a formerly "Great" Britain.

Last edited by Time Traveller; 23rd Jun 2020 at 08:11.
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 09:38
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Wiggy, nice to see I’m not the only cynic in BA......
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 10:29
  #43 (permalink)  
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Thanks Time Traveller for keeping it on point.
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 10:31
  #44 (permalink)  
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Time Traveller

I perfect summary. Depressing indeed.
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 11:04
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Time Traveller

A reasonably accurate overall description. And with balance. Well done.
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 11:41
  #46 (permalink)  
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Fully agree and may I add: a not so "United"Kingdom.....
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 17:02
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Time Traveller View Post
This topic is becoming rambling beyond belief! ...
Agreed!!

Time to be serious for a bit.

Much has been said about the 'language thing'. Yes, Brits are 'less good' at other languages, but I will refer everyone here to "The Outsider" by Frederick Forsyth. Forsyth, a Brit, is fluent in French, German, Spanish and Russian. However, in that book he defends the inability of Brits to become proficient in other languages: almost everyone else that they encounter either is proficient in English or wants to improve their English so any attempts by Brits to try to use their language almost invariably switches, by the non-Brit, to English. I have experienced this personally, I am 'fluent' in reading and understanding one of the more 'different' western European languages, but every time that I attempt to use it, the language is switched by the other side to English. As these are usually only minor transactions I have given up on any attempt to keep the conversation off English. (I do however find it amusing to see their surprise when they realise that I have understood what they have been saying!) Other people want to speak English and find it useful. That is an immediate disadvantage to people not only in Britain but throughout the English speaking world in practising other languages. The modern lingua franca is English (-- ooh, I did enjoy using that term!). So yes, Brits will be at a disadvantage in other places that insist, quite rightly, on their own language.

About the 'Brexit thing' and future jobs. Does anyone seriously think that for quite a long time now even if Britain was to be staying in the EU, that Brits would easily be able to take up pilot jobs elsewhere in the EU? There will be so many local unemployed pilots to draw off that pilots from any other nationality, not just Brits, will be at the back of the queue for those jobs. (And I can point a finger at at least one major EU state that will be extremely 'protectionist' in this matter.). Exactly the same will apply in Britain and even if EU nationals still had free opportunities for jobs in Britain, they would be struggling to compete with a huge pool of unemployed pilots. However, the departure from the EU adds an additional layer of 'protection' to those unemployed pilots as any potential 'competitors' from outside Britain (anywhere outside Britain, not just the EU) will need visas and right around the world visas are not usually given if there are 'locals' who can do the job. However, Britain has the world's third largest aviation industry, so opportunities for Brit pilots to get jobs in Britain are likely to be a lot better than Brit pilots, even if they could, getting jobs anywhere in the EU (or almost anywhere else in the world). So one thing that Brexit will be doing is helping to preserve British pilot jobs for British pilots..

Originally Posted by Time Traveller View Post
...

Any trickle of vacated UK jobs will be more than cancelled out by a deteriorating market for UK aviation, coupled with a woefully incompetent and disinterested, inward looking Brexit government, which for good measure has welcomed C19 in through the front door, then proceeded to so suspend democracy and civil liberty, and for so long, that much of the impoverished and timid population don't want to travel anyway, or even leave their houses, or teach their children in schools etc etc. Truly a depressing shadow of a formerly "Great" Britain.
To go through that one. Yes, the market for UK aviation is deteriorating. I don't know if you have noticed that the same is the case everywhere.

You then have a 'rant' about the British government:

You claim that they "welcomed C19 in through the front door". Can you justify that? There is increasing evidence that this nasty 'bug' was already in at least two EU countries before it had even been reported by the 'source' nation to the World Health Organisation and well established in another very soon after. And those EU countries were the primary source of transmission into the UK. Yes, if the UK had know at the time they could have shut the doors to those countries, but just imagine the howls of outrage is Britain had, quite properly, shut their doors to three of the EU's biggest countries just a weeks after Brexit!!!

You then go on about 'suspending democracy...' (evidence please?) '...and civil liberty'. Do you understand why the 'civil liberties' were 'suspended'? The deaths of 40+ thousand people more than normal is quite serious. And have you compared with how those 'civil liberties' were 'suspended' with how other previously fellow-EU countries have done it. I know people who have travelled around Europe quite a bit during these times and I can assure you, Britain was very 'liberal' compared with others nearby. Most of that 'timid population' has become timid primarily because of a lot of the extremist twists that are put on things by incompetent journalists. When there is clear evidence that flying is far safer than any other form of public transport when considering the risks of catching this nasty bug, it is journalists who are spreading fear stories about the safety of flying. (What are you doing to ensure that people that you know are properly informed about how safe flying is? Stop sitting back and thinking that it is for someone else to do -- get out there and tell everyone that you know how safe it is; I have been doing so myself, even though I would not gain personally from more people flying.)

Yes, is is depressing. But is in not just depressing in Britain.

But rather than rant against Britain, look at what Britain as achieved. Britain has kept sectors of its economy running that other (nearby) countries haven't. Britain started of with this nasty situation in a far better financial position than many other (Italy...?). Yes, the British economy is going to take a very, very serious hit with this, but name another similar country that isn't? The IMF is forecasting that the British economy is going to contract by 10.2% next year (the same as the Euro Area as a whole), but for France, Italy and Spain that will be over 12% contraction. In 2021 they are forecasting that Britain's growth will be more than the Euro Area. So yes, right now might be depressing, but look ahead a bit further. And it is even more depressing elsewhere.

And DON'T try to lay the blame for all of this on the British government. The true blame lies absolutely fairly and squarely on the government of the nation that exported this around the world, with their police taking action against their own doctors who were trying to caution about it after it had already been 'exported' to Europe.

I did find the comment "a not so "United"Kingdom..... " coming from Belgium to be hilarious!! How are you getting on with forming you 'new' government? Are you likely to retain your old world record and have one formed by 20 Nov 2020, or are you out to break your own world record?

But, getting back to how Brexit is likely to affect British pilots. In present circumstances it will make very little difference: everyone everywhere is 'in the poo'. In the longer term it could mean that with Britain having such a large aviation industry and Britain's future growth being internationally forecast to be higher than most neighbours, and with less of a 'hit' in the interim, jobs should pick up quicker here. And British pilots won't need to get visas to get jobs in Britain. So overall and longer term I am more optimistic for the prospects for British pilots 'after Brexit'.


OK, back to the 'wooden spoon' times... did someone dare someone about saying "subjugate"?!! ... ... ... 'SUBJUGATE'!!
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 17:20
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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What a miserable person. 3rd largest aviation, 5th largest economy, wisest and competent government, etc. You may wish to check on the BA's threat to return to reality.
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 18:59
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Big_D View Post
... 3rd largest aviation, 5th largest economy, wisest and competent government, etc. You may wish to check on the BA's threat to return to reality.
Let me repeat what I said:
Originally Posted by Trossie View Post
everyone everywhere is 'in the poo'.
Originally Posted by Big_D View Post
What a miserable person. ...
It's you who sounds miserable!

​​​​​​​
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 20:03
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Trossie

What a load of b****.....

1. In regards to the language, the mother of all excuses. I have seen people bend over backwards to learn a language because it was paramount for them to get a job and feed their families, me being one of them.
You didn’t try hard enough and didn’t have it in you, don’t give us “Brits have an disadvantage” as British people are equally capable, it’s all down to being “hungry” and get things done instead of finding excuses.

2. Protectionism to British jobs, the huge flaw in your argument, it pretty much debunks it, is that those EU pilots have Indefinite right to live and work in the UK through the settlement scheme. You don’t lose it because you were made redundant, you keep it for life. So all EU nationals already flying have it, and those who decide to come in the next two years, can apply even before getting a job, you obviously didn’t read the agreement. So no, if they are more qualified then they can apply and still beat you at the assessment even if you have the new shinny blue passport.
The point system doesn’t affect the Settlement scheme, it’s part of Boris’s deal, the “Oven ready, great deal for Britain”, in his own words....that turned out to be a bad deal two weeks ago...(laughable).

3. In regards to the rest, I would suggest dropping the Daily Mail. The UK had a Tory government for 10 years now, the health services, immigration, state of economy, police, benefit system etc it’s all on them. All domestic issues that were mandated by the British government, not the EU. The whole “rule Britannia” is getting old, I’v seen it elsewhere and it doesn’t end well.
I agree that we are all in bad situation, and it’s great that you’re optimistic, however there’s a difference between optimism and delusion of grandeur.

I’m sorry but you sound angry, like most brexiteers who are angry at someone somewhere over something it was out of their making.


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Old 25th Jun 2020, 09:22
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Raph, Thank you for your reply.

1. About language. These days kids are poor at complex mental arithmetic. They don't need it, they have calculators in their pockets (on their phones) that can do all that for them. English speaking people (in most places in the world) have no need to speak another language as most of the people that they usually deal with will speak English and if not those phones now also have pretty nifty translators. Sure, if you could benefit from coming to an English speaking country "because it was paramount for [you] to get a job and feed [your] famil[y]", then it was worth putting in that effort. But you have demonstrated that that job was in an English speaking country. English speakers already speak the language needed for that. No 'excuses' there. Just the way it is.
2. About 'protectionism'. No flaw in my 'argument'. By getting "Indefinite right to live and work in the UK" you have effectively become an 'adopted Brit' and enjoy the same 'protections' from others coming in in future. Sure, there's a two year cushion period where others from the EU can apply for visas even though they don't have a job offer, but for the next two years there are most likely not going to be a lot of new jobs. If other EU pilots get those British visas for the chance of a job some time in the future, that says a lot about their confidence in job potentials in post-Brexit Britain, doesn't it? (And just to put things straight, I won't be competing with anyone for jobs.)
3. You really don't like your adopted country do you? No 'grandeur' there from me. Just quoting facts. (And I haven't touched a Daily Mail for about a decade.)

I'm not in the slightest 'angry', I'm writing all of this with a big smile!


I'll say it again - the aviation sector everywhere is 'in the poo'. And it is not the fault of any of the governments, they haven't all got things wrong the same way. (One did get things wrong. Badly wrong. And that has affected all of us. But that's another topic.) But I believe that British pilots have a better long-term outlook. And yes, I believe that Brexit has actually increased their prospects. So enjoy your adopted country and the advantages you enjoy from it. I'm sorry if my previous comments have made you angry. in the present circumstances I feel that that would have been an unfair thing for me to have 'deliberately' done.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 09:33
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Trossie View Post
But I believe that British pilots have a better long-term outlook. And yes, I believe that Brexit has actually increased their prospects.
See you here in 12 months time.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 10:53
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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- the extreme irrational optimism that took us into Brexit in the first place. It was useful when going into battle vastly outnumbered at Agincourt and the like, but not so much in the modern world!
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 11:20
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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The threat has run its course, time to close it down.

To summarise there may be some advantages to British pilots in the local market (if it ever recovers), but international opportunities will be largely removed due to visa and licence (EASA) requirements. I am very sorry.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 13:53
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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sorry for posting the same question again. But would anyone have the answer to this? If you acquired your license in an EASA member state(including all theoretical exams etc), but then exchanged your license for the UK(while still a member) would you still be entitled to your old license once the UK leaves? At the moment you can’t hold two EASA licenses at the same time, but once UK has left you should be able to hold both. Very much the same as you can hold an EASA and FAA license. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated!
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 16:44
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Well, nobody knows yet. But in this case you would have a UK license, based on EASA of course as that is the current rule set. However, once the transition period is over without any agreement on aviation licenses the UK license will no longer be recognized in the EU. The UK CAA will most likely either replace the license of issue a blanket statement that it is now a UK national license.

Trying to get back to the original EU country where the EASA license was acquired to get it back, will most probably no longer work. Which is exactly the reason why many UK pilots transferred their license to the EU, many to Ireland for example and one orange company to Austria. That way there is still a valid EASA license which is recognized in the EU. From what i read the UK CAA will then issue a national UK license based on the EASA one and in effect the pilot will hold two valid licenses: the original EASA license and the new UK national license.

Now, i could be completely wrong, but that is the situation as i understand it in case of the "hard" exit of the transition period.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 17:05
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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. From what i read the UK CAA will then issue a national UK license based on the EASA one and in effect the pilot will hold two valid licenses: the original EASA license and the new UK national license.
It would be great if that were the case, because it is a major deterrent converting to a UKCAA licence if one were to lose the EASA licence as a result.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 18:48
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Denti

Well, in that case it would make sense to transfer to a EASA license outside the UK and come 1st of Jan ask for a UK National license. My thinking is that if you had done your ATPL in a EU country it’s a license for life, especially if you worked under the same jurisdiction (although under another member state’s oversight). I know it’s all a grey area at the moment, but highly controversial when it actually happens! Thanks for the input!
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 20:26
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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You abandoned the license by the issuing state, the files were transfered to your new home CAA. The former CAA shouldn't even legally hold a shadow copy of your former file - although I am sure some do. Still it would not be updated with your endorsements, check rides, competency checks.
This will for sure not work. You have to get your file back to the EASA system before end of the transition period.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 22:26
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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My next question. If I were to transfer my UK license over to a EASA country would the transfer have to be accomplished before the transition ends or would it suffice for the request to be made before the transition ends? I’m just asking because as we’ve seen with negotiations over the last couple of years I’m expecting it to go to the wire, decisions being made at very last moment. And although the UK is adamant not to ask for an extension the closer we get to Jan 1st some big issues will start focusing minds. No proper preparation has been made, no new customs system established, not enough custom officers hired, all the announced trade deals far from being completed...and this on top of Corona!...What I’m trying to say is that even by the end of this year there might still be another extension which will make all the hassle look futile.
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