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What for British pilots, after Brexit? (v2)

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What for British pilots, after Brexit? (v2)

Old 22nd Jun 2020, 09:50
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Its funny that every EU country can determine whether Brits can get naturalized and when/how. You would almost believe they are sovereign nations...

problems might arise for a Europe-based Brit if the base closes or the company folds. Could you move cross border within Europe? Uncertain times ahead. Complete shit show.
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 10:27
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SaulGoodman View Post
Pilot wise I believe there are more Brits working in the EU then Europeans in the UK. ...
Originally Posted by Theholdingpoint View Post
We're talking about pilots.
I know a lot of British willingly living in the EU, but I don't know a single EU citizen living in the UK by choice. This being said, I'll laugh my ass off on Jan 1st, good luck to you.
Both comments are nonsense.

(And before I go into that in more detail, could I point out that all the British pilots working in the UK are Europeans. Britain is part of the continent of Europe and its inhabitants are therefore European. The same as the inhabitants of Switzerland or western Russia. Subjugation to Brussels is not a defining point for being 'European'.)

Over many years of commuting and flying on UK regional routes I have encountered many, many 'continental European' pilots (EU citizens) who have chosen to live and work in the UK. There has also been the comment on BA having a far larger proportion of 'continental European' pilots than any other European 'flag' carrier has of British pilots. Just because you haven't encountered them probably says more about your lack of experience in the field.

(As for "laughing you ass off on Jan 1st", that appears very juvenile and shows the way a lot of these 'arguments' go. I would not laugh 'my ass off' at anyone's misfortune. I would hope that everyone comes out of all of this well. But then maybe I should be more charitable about your thoughts and maybe you are saying that you will be laughing in joy at our good fortune on 1st Jan?)

But back to the topic. Things have crashed everywhere right now. But when things pick up and the world's third largest aviation industry starts to take on new pilots and Britain is an independent country again, to quote a previous Prime Minister: British jobs for British workers !!!
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 10:40
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SaulGoodman View Post
Its funny that every EU country can determine whether Brits can get naturalized and when/how. You would almost believe they are sovereign nations...

problems might arise for a Europe-based Brit if the base closes or the company folds. Could you move cross border within Europe? Uncertain times ahead. Complete shit show.
Agreed....I recall this point about the loss of "cross border" freedoms for Brits post Brexit being raised a few years ago..it shouldn't be a surprise ( except for those who insisted in inserting their fingers in their ears).
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 10:58
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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ďSubjugation to BrusselsĒ

You mean being able to live and work everywhere in Europe and have the same legal rights as the locals. You mean having the biggest single market in the world with unfettered access for businesses. You mean having the highest living standards with the best quality of food and environmental oversights. You mean more than 70 years of peace between countries that used to fight like cats and dogs...If you call that subjugation I rest my case!
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 11:47
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SaulGoodman View Post
...
problems might arise for a Europe-based Brit ...
By definition, Brits based in Britain are "Europe-based".
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 11:55
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Well I'm glad we got that out of the way suppose but it's not really a lot of use in the context of a discussion about freedom of movement/work for Brits in the EU26......
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 12:25
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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I think that we are a long, long way from "getting that one out of the way". There will always be those with the firm belief that you can only be 'European' if you are subjugated to Brussels.

But, if we are going to talk about 'cross border' situations, the statistics already quoted above and discussed in some finer detail seem to indicate that jobs in the world's third largest aviation industry will in future be far more likely to go to local pilots.

And as far as the 'EU26' goes, I suppose it would make sense that if they effectively are going to have state subsidised airlines, they would not want pilots from outside that '26' taking those almost 'public sector' jobs?
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 12:49
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Funny how you (general you, not restricted to you Trossie) are really quick to dismiss anyone saying "more UK pilots in the EU" as "nonsense based on your limited experience" basing your reasoning on "from my experience is the opposite".

Anyway, these are the first few words from my first post:"From my personal experience". As there are no statistics on the subject nobody cam judge what others are writing, as I could call BS on your statements using your very same reasoning.

This being said, I can add that I know "a couple" of guys in BA, both from the EU and the UK. The EU citizens living in the UK are there just because they have a British Ms. Pilot, otherwise they'd rather live at home or in Southern Spain. The UK nationals I know are living in the UK or commuting from Spain/France.

Does British jobs for British workers mean that British workers can only get British jobs or that British jobs can be done by British only? That's a lot of difference...

I'll laugh my ass off because someone is going to realize that the British Empire ended some time ago.
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 15:03
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Trossie View Post
I think that we are a long, long way from "getting that one out of the way". There will always be those with the firm belief that you can only be 'European' if you are subjugated to Brussels.
Yes, there are and I've really never understood that mindset - I think one look at how different countries within the EU imposed differing restrictions to cope with CV-19 and how they are free to "unlock" in different ways shows that individual states are not subjugated to Brussels......
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 17:53
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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I think it will shortly be confirmed what many have suspected in the U.K. for several years. Any government balls-up is automatically blamed on the EU or some external factor, and seemingly nothing to do with the pompous halfwits that make up most of the Houses of Commons and Lords. Very soon, the U.K. govt won’t have the ability to blame the EU and will have to dream up a new scapegoat for its inadequacies. I, like many people are going to sit and watch with interest. Sadly, many cross border workers like crew will be caught in the fallout.
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 18:33
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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It would be hilarious if it wasnít so tragic....to those who are trying to find a scapegoat, tell us how exactly is the EUís fault or their responsibility for the mess the UK sees itself in? How are European pilotsís fault that you did not use your right, to live, work and study in any other EU nation, learning their language and acquiring new skills?

TAP and KLM have dropped their language requirement last year, there were other outfits that would take British pilots. You've got too comfortable, too lazy and now have to deal with a problem of your making, itís as simple as that.

I have met many European pilots here in the UK and Iím sorry to say, they were more qualified than many Brits Iíve flown with.

its a competitive market and these guys and gals, left their comfort zone and competed with you in your turf, and won. Itís on you, not them! Yes you will need to speak spanish to fly for Iberia, but you will need an ICAO level 6 for British Airways. There are spanish pilots at BA, they did what you couldnít be bothered to do...

Iím writing this in my fourth language, and I have flown with plenty of captains who would have ďTOC to TODĒ long rants about their nationalist views(I ignored them mostly). A lot of conservatives in aviation, voted for this mess and now complain.
Iím sorry but what is the EU supposed to do when youíre attempting to decimate your own industry further?

Last edited by Raph737; 22nd Jun 2020 at 18:45.
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 19:01
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Raph737 View Post
... and now complain. ...
Who is complaining?
You've got too comfortable
Yes, it is comfortable here. Would that be why so many others come here?

(Haven't had anyone comment on the state-subsidised airlines in the EU yet!)
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 20:45
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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People came for many reasons, but that appeal is not there anymore after the last four years of inflamed sentiments of xenophobia. But saying that EU pilots had an advantage and/or that Brits weren’t given the same opportunity with EU airlines is dishonest. Personally know many bizjet/BBJ British Pilots earning very well in the continent, they’ve adapted and built lives there.

Subsidised? So? Go ask the Flybe lot how they feel about government intervention, or Thomas Cook, or the 500+ Virgin Pilots who were let go...
Anyone here who has the “gun of redundancy” pointed to their heads, would love to be reassured by Boris right now...
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 21:14
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Everyone subsidises their aviation sector currently, not only the EU, it happens all over the world including the US. For some reason there is not really all that much going on in that sector in the UK in terms of bailout, which is weird as it used to be quite a big aviation market. The commercial disadvantage is already staggering for the UK airline industry and the stuff going on with the likes of Virgin, BA and others will only get worse. So yes, one can sneer about a subsidised airline industry in the EU (and the US, and China and so on), but that doesn't help UK citizens in that industry, and especially not UK based airlines who have to compete against subsidised airlines wherever they go.

And the disadvantage brought on by the choices of the UK government will hurt a lot of employees.No more jobs on the continent while EU citizens can freely compete with UK workers on their home turf, that is not a pretty picture at all, not that there will be all that many jobs in the UK in the next few years.
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 21:15
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Raph737 View Post
Subsidised? So? Go ask the Flybe lot how they feel about government intervention, or Thomas Cook, or the 500+ Virgin Pilots who were let go...
Anyone here who has the “gun of redundancy” pointed to their heads, would love to be reassured by Boris right now...
To be fair Raph the PM and the Chancellor have in fact tried to reassure many airline employees by introducing the Job Retention Scheme, or JRS..

This allows an employer to:

"Claim for 80% of your employee’s wages plus any employer National Insurance and pension contributions, if you have put them on furlough because of coronavirus (COVID-19)"

..JRS is of course in no way, shape or form a "subsidy"..
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 22:57
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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I’m not against it at all, I actually think that the government should have stepped in to assist Flybe, in exchange for a stake in the company. A temporary suspension of APD could have helped too and I’m certain those pilots would have appreciated. Now, it’s fair that nobody could have predicted this crisis, but the utopia the leave camp promised was undeliverable then, imagine now.

I agree with you that the JRS was a good thing, but aviation needs an exclusive package and there should be extra attention to what’s happening with BA.

I think that the JRS should have come with certain conditions, such as if your business enters the scheme and then decides to fire the staff, they should return the money. There should be greater protections for British workers and that’s something Europeans(namely the French) have been criticised for, but look who’s safe now?

You can’t claim unfair dismissal if you worked less than two years, redundancy pay is capped way too low, to file employment tribunal claims it will cost you £1500 etc I mean, the balance is massively tilted to the corporation’s side.

I empathise with the British citizens who are unwillingly affected by this, but also giving an 80 seat majority to a party who was in charge for 10 years with little to show for isn’t exactly encouraging. I don’t get why the average worker, including pilots and crew, wouldn’t see that you’re not elite and when the faeces hit the fan, you’re on your own.

The EU is not perfect, but majority of the U.K. problems were homegrown, fact. I just hope you come out of this with the experience and resilience to battle it out as it’s not good for anyone involved.

Last edited by Raph737; 22nd Jun 2020 at 23:18.
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 03:09
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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, but also giving an 80 seat majority to a party
I’m not sure that’s how it works is it? All we can do is go into a ballot box every few years and stick a cross next to a name. I don’t remember seeing a box with any numbers for majorities, number of MP’s to be selected, etc?
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 06:33
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Denti View Post
Everyone subsidises their aviation sector currently, not only the EU, it happens all over the world including the US. For some reason there is not really all that much going on in that sector in the UK in terms of bailout, which is weird as it used to be quite a big aviation market.
I think HMG is fairly unthinking when it comes to UK aviation, it "likes" the money made through APD but other than that probably sees the physical side of the industry in the same way previous administrations regarded the old "heavy" industries such as ship building - something dirty noisy and smelly to be got rid ASAP. I've also no doubt MPs, particularly those with constituencies in Western London are probably getting an ear bending from the Green lobby and some noise action groups who would be quite happy for the current situation to continue as long as possible

The early AM pre-coffee rambling conspiracy theorist in me wonders if HMG would be quite happy if all the flights into/out of LHR were operated by foreign airlines. That would allow HMG to blame "Brussels" or the yanks for the noisy aircraft, and neatly outsourcing the carbon emissions produced by Brits flying off on holiday or going to work..all would be fine in Westminster as long as the Treasury gets to keep collecting APD from people travelling through their world beating airports.

Raph...A big reason for the 80 seat majority was down to the last UK General Election as being played out as a popularity contest between the two main party leaders.

Last edited by wiggy; 23rd Jun 2020 at 06:43.
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 07:09
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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You could replace the leaving Poles and become a plumber.
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 07:16
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Trossie. Dismissing ones argument as nonsense because you might think differently is shortsighted donít you think. You know exactly what I meant with ďEuropeanĒ and ďEurope-basedĒ, but yes: For the sake of the argument letís change it into EU-nationals and EU-(+Swiss/Norway)based. Now what is your opinion then?

You can hardly blame Johnny Foreigner for the fact that in the UK education system there was never the urge to speak any other language fluently. However, I know a few Britts who actually did learn another language and are flying for EU/Swiss/Norway based carriers. I know even more who never did learn any other language and STILL are flying for EU/Swiss/Norway based carriers.

Iím (almost) fluent in 3 languages, can understand 2 more. Luckily for you I have no reason whatsoever to be based on your beautiful Island!
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