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Ryanair France demands 20% pay cut for flight-crew to avoid redundancies

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Ryanair France demands 20% pay cut for flight-crew to avoid redundancies

Old 5th Jun 2020, 10:14
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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The pompous garbage written here about Ryanair by non Ryanair pilots just belies their arrogance and lack of acquaintance with the facts, and realities of varying national contacts. The Italians take home pay went up massively, while the French got clobbered for a huge amount of tax (I'm told a French pilot costs Ryanair more than pilots in most other countries, but the tax treatment is worse than for eJ French pilots for some reason) - so the disparities within Ryanair DAC are mostly down to local tax arrangements following the pilot driven push towards national employment. During the good times, a huge number switched from contractor to employee, and many who didn't, chose not to so they could continue offsetting costs and thus pay almost no tax. As for industrial action in support of other countries pilots (or any IA anywhere at the moment) - No way, no how! Uplinker is on the money though - always be on the look out for your next job or profession, so that when the pay isn't enough, move somewhere else (although most of the younger pilots only have a basic level of education, so that's trickier to switch professions, ).
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Last edited by midnight cruiser; 5th Jun 2020 at 11:29.
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 11:21
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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MC,

The fact that you actually believe the difference in T&Cís is because of a difference in tax here in France sadly tells me a lot about how the Ryanair has managed to get their pilots to perceive their reality. And before you spend more time arguing this I am indeed with the orange brigade and I do have a copy of the french Ryanair contract to compare with.
In France you are taxed on your whole income and there are deductions afterwards depending on your personal situation and working patterns throughout the year. Itís different from the Italian contract style with a high amount of daily allowance thatís not taxed and a lower basic salary.
I do wish you the best of luck fighting for your terms. The lower Ryanair goes the lower everyone else have to follow. This is sadly the reality of European aviation and on of the main reasons thereís a lot of animosity towards Fr from pilots in other companies. You could however say the same about Wizz and a few others.


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Old 5th Jun 2020, 11:38
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Yeah, I'm not really talking about the difference between ryr and eJ within France (the difference in TAX is small ej/ryr) but that the difference French tax to Italian tax was enormous - ie differences within the company across different countries. EJ pay more than Ryanair - that's not news!. You switched Ryanair to eJ for more money - that's great and that's how it should work.

Last edited by midnight cruiser; 5th Jun 2020 at 11:55.
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 11:50
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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I was never with Ryanair as I was fortunate enough not to have to go down that road at any point throughout the last 20 years of flying. I also understand some people felt there was not much choice other than Ryanair. Everyoneís circumstances are different and I wonít be the judge of that.
Average tax Ezy Italy is around 30 percent due to the way the contract has been constructed. In France itís around 50 for a captain but thereís deducting depending on your family situation.
Because of this the before-tax pay also varies from country to country.
You can only really compare contracts within the specific countries.
Anyway I wish you the best of luck. No one benefits from lower paid contracts other than the shareholders. We have a strong, state-supported Air France and believe or not thatís probably just about the best thing we can hope for in this difficult time. Itís all about benchmarking.
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 12:11
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Exactly. There does seem to be a big disparity between easyJet and Ryanair in France, but there's less to choose between them in some other countries. I had offers from both at a similar stage in my career and chose Ryanair, (mainly due to easyJets ridiculously expensive type rating loan) and I don't regret it so far. Anyway, I was prompted to post because of the disingenuous posts here urging the French pilots to fight the pay cuts right now, when it would likely be Hari Kiri at the mo - It's easy for these posters to be brave, sitting on the side lines. My approach would be, bide my time, and leave if pay doesn't recover in line with the market.

Last edited by midnight cruiser; 5th Jun 2020 at 13:05.
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 12:19
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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I understand what youíre saying MC. Itís certainly not a battle you should be fighting yourself especially in these difficult times. We all have people depending on us to pay the bills and put food on the table. This has to be the first priority for everyone.
Letís hope for better times sooner than predicted. I think 2021 will be a very strong year for the low cost companies.
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 15:17
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Whitemonk Returns View Post
I'll say the exact same thing I said in the Norweigen thread.. RYR pilots were happy to turn a blind eye to every shyster move their employer used in bases accross Europe over the last decade to divide and conquer the employees and drive down T & C's accross the whole continent. Don't come looking to the rest of us for sympathy when the chickens come home to roost. It's like the expat pilots crying foul in the Saudi thread, it's all good in the boom times and screw everyone else, until it isn't.
agreed. One thing that you are almost certain of when you go work for RYR (employee or contractor) is that you get shafted at one point.
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 16:16
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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It's not like you don't get shafted in all types of operations when times are bad - and there are plenty of active recent threads proving it. And unions can only do that much about it. Did any union prevent the unilateral switch to new contracts going on at BA these days for example?
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 02:28
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PilotLZ View Post
Did any union prevent the unilateral switch to new contracts going on at BA these days for example?
Despite the impression given by some e-mails/social media posts/ rumours/press coverage about job losses or contract switches the reality is the consultation process at BA is still ongoing.

June 15th is rumoured to be the earliest date anything definite can be announced, it is only then we will see if the Unions at BA have achieved anything.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 10:32
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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I would say 20% cut is a very generous offer by RYR. Pilot salaries will go down by 30-35% in average, some will loose 50%. It will take then 5 to 7 years to get it back to pre-covid level.

ps from late November 2020 there will be crowds of experienced and rated pilot happy to sign at 50%, but there will be no jobs
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 11:48
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CargoOne View Post
ps from late November 2020 there will be crowds of experienced and rated pilot happy to sign at 50%, but there will be no jobs
Why late November? Looks like it will be a lot earlier, at many places it's already a fact of life. Any opening, with the emphasis on ANY, gets instantly flooded with applications, up to the point that most carriers and agencies don't even support their online application systems any longer. And redundancies for 20-30% of the workforce with pay cuts of 20-50% for the lucky ones remaining keep coming in every day somewhere around the globe. easyJet, Emirates and Qatar Airways are the most recent examples. And, most likely, not the last ones.

So, everyone does the maths for himself/herself. Will you be better off long-term if you drop out of work for at least one or two years (doing what in the meantime, given that you can't even claim unemployment benefits on your self-employed contract?) or if you accept the new deal? Any decision on that is strictly personal and is a good one as long as the individual making it is not back crying in a couple of months.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 12:05
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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If only people on this thread were as quick to ask for improvements on their t&c in good times as they are quick to drop their pants and bend over in this crisis...
There has never been lack of applicants for good companies, even during the boom years. Problem being most of these applicants were not able to pass the assessments and/or willing to accept the bases on offer. So the vast majority of those willing to fly for 50% can keep trying, it won't matter, as any reputable company is not going to lower their standards to accomodate them in lieu of the existing pilots.
And so far the only companies imposing and actually getting paycuts are those with no unions in place. All the other are trying, will see what they will get. Ever heard of the term negotiation?

Last edited by dirk85; 6th Jun 2020 at 12:37.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 12:36
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dirk85 View Post
If only people on this thread were as quick to ask for improvements on their t&c in good times as they are quick to drop their pants and bend over in this crisis...
There has never been lack of applicants for good companies, even duting the boom years. Problem being most of these applicants were not able to pass the assessments and/or willing to accept the bases on offer. So the vast majority of those willing to fly for 50% can keep trying, it won't matter, as any reputable company is not going to lower their standards to accomodate them in lieu of the existing pilots.
And so far the only companies imposing and actually getting paycuts are those with no unions in place. All the other are trying, will see what they will get. Ever heard of the term negotiation?
Amen! Problem is that those flexible contract bottom feeder contractor airlines have much more capital sp they can last longer than a lot of decent companies. They will use this situation to get an even bigger piece of the market post corona. ATM there is no need to succumb to large pay cuts. Salaries are only one piece of the pie. Unfortunately in most non unionized companies there is a successful divide and conquer strategy done by management.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 16:05
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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A Ryanair thread full of posters suggesting how wise, inevitable and even desirable a 20% pay cut would be. Go figure. Turkeys voting for Christmas? it seems rather unlikely. Some people might say that not all is what it seems here.

Last edited by calypso; 6th Jun 2020 at 16:24.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 21:41
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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For sure, it's not what any pilot in his or her right mind would like to hear. But the facts stand. Hardly any European company will need the same number of pilots as in January 2019 for at least a year from now. Optimistically, summer 2021 may offer the same demand for intra-European flights as summer 2019, with long-haul lagging behind and hence affecting overall RPKs. That if we assume that the acute phase of the pandemic in Europe is about to abate in the coming month and never come back. If, Heaven forbid, there's another surge in cases and consequently a new round of travel restrictions, it can get a lot worse.

Presumably everyone knew what they were signing up for. Namely that unions, collective agreements and bargaining do not exist within the RYR group. In good times, that's not too much of a problem as the conditions get adjusted accordingly whenever people start leaving en masse and someone still needs to get those planes flying. That's market self-regulation. It's happened in past years, it will happen again at some point in the not-so-near future. In bad times, the downsides of this model start showing their ugly head - and that's the exact case now. Those gentlemen get their way through blunt force even in much better times. Whether or not you want to be a part of all this is up to you. Whether or not you have access to better alternatives in the short to medium term is also a question that everyone answers for themselves.
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Old 7th Jun 2020, 00:26
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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There is NO difference at most unionized places, unless youíre at air france or lufthansa. NO difference. You will see for yourself soon unfortunately
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Old 7th Jun 2020, 07:08
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by bringbackthe80s View Post
There is NO difference at most unionized places, unless youíre at air france or lufthansa. NO difference. You will see for yourself soon unfortunately
this has been OíLearyís gospel for the past 20 years. It seems he managed to indoctrinate a large part of his work force to believe in this even though thereís been several attempts to unionise FR over the years some more successful than others. Ezy and FR are two very similar airlines. One unionised from the start the other not. Look at T&Cs of the two airlines and tell me again that a union makes no difference.
BA is used as an example these days of an airline were the otherwise strong union has no power but it really has very little to do with the Union it self but rather the legislation behind it. Uk employment-laws are dire and also unique in Europe. Your username indicates you want to bring back the eighties so if that works out you might want to stop Thatcher from becoming the PM. Problem solved.(the battle is not lost for our Ba colleagues yet btw)
The French employment laws protect the workers but as Iíve mentioned before it is an uphill battle to seek this protection for yourself when faced with redundancy. This is where a strong union will make a difference.
We can revisit this in a few months as the battle is only just beginning for some of the airlines but I promise you no unionised French-based airline will succumb to common blackmail.
If you still have doubts of the power of a unionised workforce have a look at the US majors. Great T&Cs and protection for their workers. Doesnít mean people will not be made redundant but itís not the smash and grab we're seeing in European aviation. This is one of the most liberal, non-regulated work-environments but itís also unionised.
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Old 7th Jun 2020, 09:33
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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God, some of you guys really have no clue what you're on about. Ryanair is been unionised for 2 years now (not sure about France tho). There was a time to push back (yes, it was the unions that missed that open goal, and for good measure, they also deliberately split apart their own members support more effectively than management could ever have dreamed of!), but to push back now would be like king Canute trying to push back the tide. But hey, let's not let facts get in the way of a self righteous pop at ryanair crews.

Last edited by midnight cruiser; 7th Jun 2020 at 10:02.
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Old 7th Jun 2020, 11:04
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by midnight cruiser View Post
God, some of you guys really have no clue what you're on about. Ryanair is been unionised for 2 years now (not sure about France tho). There was a time to push back (yes, it was the unions that missed that open goal, and for good measure, they also deliberately split apart their own members support more effectively than management could ever have dreamed of!), but to push back now would be like king Canute trying to push back the tide. But hey, let's not let facts get in the way of a self righteous pop at ryanair crews.
only a minority is unionized. To actually get some result you need at least 75% to be a member. There might be a union in Ryanair, there is however no Unity.
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Old 7th Jun 2020, 11:49
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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As Saul points out above itís only a minority of Ryanair thatís unionised. Not enough to make it count in a situation like this. The french bases are mainly crewed by Air Malta so they are not represented by SNPL as far as I know.
Thereís a lot of reasons the unions havenít been successful with Ryanair. Main one probably the tactics of Ryanair always keeping them one step ahead of national legislation and local unions. On top of that the whole self-employment issue with everyone employed differently.
I donít agree with their practises but they are very good at what they do. And yes this is not the time to fight without the protection of unions. I completely agree.
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