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Working Life After Flying

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

Working Life After Flying

Old 1st Jun 2020, 22:09
  #161 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ACP
My wife is director of recruitment in a large famous IT firm and I have first hand info about the salaries in consultancy. Some are pretty descent I admit but way below mine and many of my colleagues in terms of hourly rate (A330 Captain/+300k per year working 8 days per month). I will never trade my job for an IT job...
Not in Europe, I reckon
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Old 2nd Jun 2020, 10:20
  #162 (permalink)  
 
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8 days a month for 300K/? Who/where on Earth is that?
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Old 2nd Jun 2020, 15:56
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That money and easy roster would be fairly typical at a US major airline. Work a bit harder and earn even more.

European pay is way behind unfortunately.
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Old 2nd Jun 2020, 22:00
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Good post Flylaw and I agree with most of it, except the bit about going into business, by which I include any type of self employment. Sure, you're pretty unlikely to end up as a multi millionaire, but I know plenty of folk who earn a very decent living answering to no-one except themselves, paying little tax and mainly having their weekends off. It's not for everyone, but then neither is aviation, but I certainly put it out there to be considered.
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Old 2nd Jun 2020, 22:10
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The return key is your friend.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 04:20
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I'll give you that. I literally can't be arsed to even start to read that 10,000 chars of TEXT.

Although I will nominate this for the soon to be annual 'Worlds Longest Paragraph Awards 2020' (to be held digitally).
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 04:25
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Great post, Flylaw.

I wonder if you sometimes miss the intellectual challenge?

After all, this job is 99% routine, and with a few years of experience even the 1% become a rather modest excitement...

And what do you talk about in cruise? Yes, colleagues in aviation don't steal your job, but don't you find this all a bit boring compared to your previous life?

Serious question.



Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 3rd Jun 2020 at 06:02.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 09:49
  #168 (permalink)  
 
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Good post flylaw. Sorry that some are so rude about a subject that is of relevance to many at the moment. The first sentence summarises the post nicely and those who are disinterested can move on.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 11:19
  #169 (permalink)  
 
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Finally having worked as a litigation lawyer and seeing how people and businesses react to money, maybe I am cynical but expecting a Pilot a few years from retirement to give up several years of income to the detriment of his family’s financial future to voluntarily retire and let some unknown younger Pilot keep a job is not likely to happen. When it comes to money it’s the law of the jungle.​​​​​​
Absolutely true. Someone just needed to put it in plain text. It's downright delusional to think that anyone taking an early retirement does so for the sake of some random youngster keeping their job. Most of the time, those pulling out before they get on the wrong side of 65 have some substantial personal reasons to do so. Deteriorating health is often one of them, followed by family circumstances and overall tiredness. Even under today's circumstances, for most who take any VR deal that's a decision which has been almost made during the better days and COVID-19 was that last straw which broke the camel's back. Of course, a good severance package can further stimulate such a decision, but, overall, don't expect anyone to set themselves on fire to keep you warm. Not blaming anyone for it, that's just how life works. Survival of the fittest also has its place outside biology.

As for some of the previous comments, implying that pilots are a simplistic and boring lot to spend time with, they just beg the question why those who consider themselves more intelligent and interesting to talk to than the average pilot still spend their downtime on pilot forums.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 11:58
  #170 (permalink)  
 
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Very interesting words, flylaw, thanks
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 14:10
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Originally Posted by flyer4life
That money and easy roster would be fairly typical at a US major airline.
It will be the exception from now on. It’s famine or feast in the US.

I’d imagine Ts & Cs will suffer worse than in the EU until the good times return. Post 9/11 - widebody skippers in the US on c.$120k and I remember exchange rates of $2 to the £1..... it all averages out over the course of a 30 year career.

Last edited by MaverickPrime; 4th Jun 2020 at 17:37.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 17:50
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"Yes, colleagues in aviation don't steal your job".
Are you sure about that?
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Old 8th Jun 2020, 14:09
  #173 (permalink)  
 
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I was accepted on to a new pay to fly MPL program
Your honor my client would like to strike that from the record.

On a serious note when hiring resumes or airlines start to recall pilots, many will find that the terms and conditions will be greatly reduced and those willing and in a position to fly for next to nothing or indeed willing to pay to fly will have cockpits to go to.
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Old 8th Jun 2020, 17:54
  #174 (permalink)  
 
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Sadly, but you're right. Shame on those pilots willing to pay to fly, or accept greatly reduced conditions. When will they learn?
Pilots are their own worst enemies
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Old 8th Jun 2020, 18:41
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It might be my own wishful thinking, but wouldn't now be a good opportunity to campaign against P2F, using the number of unemployed pilots as an argument for the law makers? Actually, P2F is no good for the already strained state budgets. Instead of having employed professionals earning a salary, paying taxes and spending on goods and services, P2F effectively leads to those doing it having no income, just like those who are unemployed.
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Old 8th Jun 2020, 19:28
  #176 (permalink)  
 
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How about we campaign for reciprocity. I would like to get a fast track legal qualification, skip all that junior experience building nonsense and buy myself a set of silks and a silly wig, pay for a seat in chambers and a QC title. All the other QC's can just show me what to do until I get the hang of it. Obviously I'm just being silly here and I know P2F has been flogged to death. We will however be facing experienced pilots being expected to essentially pay to get their jobs back soon. Oh well, at least I saw a few good years. Good luck to all.... We are going to need it.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 09:17
  #177 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by beachbumflyer
Sadly, but you're right. Shame on those pilots willing to pay to fly, or accept greatly reduced conditions. When will they learn?
Pilots are their own worst enemies
Agree with the P2F thing. But if in a few months time my current employer was to say that to keep my job in the left seat of an airliner I would have to accept a £60k salary I would almost certainly say yes, and if I didn’t plenty of people would. At the moment the alternative is to earn £10 per hour delivering parcels, and I know which option would pay the mortgage. The time to try to improve terms and conditions is when you have a position to bargain from.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 15:22
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Originally Posted by excrab
... The time to try to improve terms and conditions is when you have a position to bargain from.
Probably one of the most sensible comments on PPRuNe for a while...

Staying in work right now is more important than anything else. And keeping as many pilots also in work goes along with that. Then there should be no need for "Working Life After Flying".

However, for those who do need to think about that, do not 'aim too high' to start with, get something and build from there. Work of some sort on you C.V. looks a lot more impressive than "time spent at home thinking about something".
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 19:49
  #179 (permalink)  
 
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Utter tosh. If we all accept a 50% pay cut all we will achieve is destroying this profession. I for one much rather stay at home for two years if required and return to a fair paying job than to keep my job but work for half the pay the rest of my career. Is simple maths if you look a career earnings. How many pilots are employed is determined by how any aircraft airlines want to operate NOT by how much we are willing to cut our pay. Even if you accept 60K MOL will want 30K. If you accept 30 K he will be after 15 and so on. Willie Walsh, Alex Cruz, MOL and the rest are after the absolute minimum they can get away with. If they can get you to pay to work even better. Don't fall into the trap.

I have done pilot selection in the past. I judged candidates on their technical knowledge, their performance in the sim, the psychometric testing, their hours on type and on seat and on wether I could sit next to them for a 12 hour stint without going mad. I did not care wether they did a paper round when they where 16 or wether they took a career break at 40. I specially did not care if they agreed to take a 50% pay cut to stay in their job.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 22:12
  #180 (permalink)  
 
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I completely agree with you. I would suggest those pilots willing to work for a lot less pay to take a look at Continental Airlines in the early 1980's when ALPA lost a strike
because some of their pilots accepted a sharp reduction in pay and crossed the picket line along with new hires. At the end who suffer are the pilots and the profession.
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